Applying for PR - advices needed

[DimWit Kid]

... and it gets interesting the moment you jumped into it, along with GC..

Anyway, an additional view from me is that perhaps, if the government of SG also regards PR as what you, GC, and waz (well for that matter including myself) thinks, then they should NOT ever allowed partial family PR-ship to avoid a loophole in terms of the NS obligations (or any other matter for that thing). The fact that they still do, means to me that they allow the loophole to be exploited, which is a pity (and mean also that we can't be all that hard on people like singaporered who saw the loophole and wants to exploit it).

The other discussion about the legal validity of parents commitment of the son to the country... well, I'm more with sms - the law of the land. If it's legal on the land where it is made, then it is legal for the authority to enforce it within their jurisdiction. So if they arrest the NS-deserter when they enter Singapore again it's their sovereignty to do that.

And as always when we talk about it:

Just for a discussion, but talking about "defending the country, etc", does it sound like for citizen of that country? For example, if I am a citizen of country A, PR of Singapore and the two countries go to war, who should my loyalty lie, purely based law (what you believe is another matter)? I think you should be loyal to your country of citizenship first right?

I'll always say that it's indeed confusing - especially in my case because my son may face prosecution back home if he does NS when the time comes...

[singaporered]

I thought I left it as that, but I think I am still interested in this discussion. While what some of you said is right about the responsibility of serving the country, what happened to the right to have a say in this country? PR cant vote. If a PR is held hostage, would the Singapore govt make the efforts as if they are a Singaporean? Honestly, I dont know any Singapore PR hostage situation and what the govt did, so I cant comment, but just pose a question.

And for those who have sons and have decided to apply PR for them as well, may I know why you take the risk? Is it because you know quite sure that you will stay here for long time (say, 20 years)? Or because you think it is the right thing to do, despite the future complications that you know about?

[DimWit Kid]

SGRed, I can only speak for myself. I don't think my condition is going to applicable for you but nevertheless I'll share my thought.

In fact there are much more benefit of being PR here. It is not only related to many superficial (ok, in no derogatory meaning from my side) thing that other expats usually talk about. For us, being here means avoiding possible complication in terms of ethnic discrimination back home, possibility of using the much better (compared to back home) health care system here, especially one of our kids need the care that would otherwise hard to come by. Healthcare, and social care, that would otherwise not available if we were only on EP. There are a lot of things attach to the PR-ship for us.

Culturally PR here is much better for us, our family, compared to for example Australia (which we could've got if we wanted to). We consider also the term of reference - including NS-obligation, when we applied (I was here for 6 years, and 3 invitation, on EP before applying PR). It's a question of "cost vs benefit" for us. My birth country for me is still my country - which is why I have yet, so far, to apply for Citizenship despite invitations. My kids - they're born and bred in Singapore, they live here, so they're not so attached to home country and they benefit from being here that they would otherwise wouldn't. So there's no difference between them and any Singaporean kid (except that our subsidy is 78% instead of 90% ) in that sense. All these consideration, we decide to apply - and yes, I intend to stay here for another what, 10, 20 years? I don't know - that's not a big consideration for me.

[sundaymorningstaple]

And for those who have sons and have decided to apply PR for them as well, may I know why you take the risk? Is it because you know quite sure that you will stay here for long time (say, 20 years)? Or because you think it is the right thing to do, despite the future complications that you know about?

Okay. Here's my take on it. My situation was a wee bit different than DWK (and I do know his problem with his country of origin - hope somehow that eventually gets resolved between the two governments - though I doubt it as long as Singapore keeps providing a safe haven for a certain ethnic class to park their assets.)

Both of my kids (1 of each gender) have dual citizenship as their mother is a Singaporean and they were born here in true Singaporean style (the old KK hospital). As such, PR was not an option. I could have, however, easily have gotten them out of Singapore and back in the US for schooling like in boarding schools. I don't like that and I think a kid deserves to be brought up with his family regardless. Anyway.....

I am an man of principles. I believe in payback. I believe in doing what is right. Sure, I not above making a profit, but not by making somebody else make a loss. I rather work and live in a win-win mode. I make a little less and the other persons also ends up feeling like they haven't been ripped off. Normally, over the longer term, both eventually make the same amount due to repeat business. It's the same with my relationship with Singapore. Sure I could just use the system for all it's worth and then bail. But at the end of the day, I'd feel like crap and I'd be just one more arse who would eventually cause the laws here to be changed to close all the options and making it more difficult to say here for the long term. (I've been here over 26 years now). As it is, the abuses are already causing much consternation amongst us long-term PR's because as as result of the abuses, are subsidies are being cut drastically.

I wish more young families had principles but somehow that seems to have been bred out of the current working generation. I've just about run my course and reckon I've got about 3 or 4 more years max and then I'm gonna retire (not here but on my farm where I can go out and relax without any traffic sounds or mercury vapour lamps at all.

You want a say in the running of the country? What's stopping you? Sure there are limitations. I'm a PR. I'm also a full member of our HDB estate's resident's committee. I cannot become as PAP member because I'm not a citizen but I help where I can. As a PR I am accepted in the community and if I want to participate further then I should take up Citizenship.

There you go again about complications. What complications? I only see positives and not negatives. I didn't want to go here as this is already long enough but......

Let's suppose you are here for the long term and you manage to get your son through without doing NS by being on a student visa. Guess what happens when he finishes school? No more Student Visa. Now let's assume that he's a decent looking chap and is not some hid in the dark PC gamer who never sees the light of day. e.g., probably by this time has a girl friend or two. Maybe one pretty seriously. Guess what's going to happen when he loses his Student Visa. He's gonna be out of the country. The government knows what you are doing (been done many times before) so once he's finished his schooling, he's not going be able to get PR or a LTSVP. Where is he gonna go? You put him in this predicament. When he has to leave the country he gonna probably have to leave his girlfriend behind as well. He's gonna love you for that. By that time he will have spent his whole life in Singapore and now he's got to leave and go to some country that he doesn't even really know. Why? Because of misguided parents who don't understand that doing 21 months of military service can help he to be a better person. In addition to that, it also gives him the opportunity to possibly take up citizenship if he wants too. It give him the opportunity to not have his whole life thrown into disarray by your actions 16 years earlier. You see, while the government leaves those "loopholes" there, they are holes that have lots of jagged edges and a single misstep means you son could very easily learn to hate you for not have better judgment.

My opinions only. But my son is thanking me today. I hope yours will.

[singaporered]

Thanks for these detailed replies. I will think about it and decide what to do. If any others have any experiences or views, please share. I think it is good for me, and I am sure many others who are or will read this thread.

[singaporered]

There you go again about complications. What complications? I only see positives and not negatives. I didn't want to go here as this is already long enough but......

Let's suppose you are here for the long term and you manage to get your son through without doing NS by being on a student visa. Guess what happens when he finishes school? No more Student Visa. Now let's assume that he's a decent looking chap and is not some hid in the dark PC gamer who never sees the light of day. e.g., probably by this time has a girl friend or two. Maybe one pretty seriously. Guess what's going to happen when he loses his Student Visa. He's gonna be out of the country. The government knows what you are doing (been done many times before) so once he's finished his schooling, he's not going be able to get PR or a LTSVP. Where is he gonna go? You put him in this predicament. When he has to leave the country he gonna probably have to leave his girlfriend behind as well. He's gonna love you for that. By that time he will have spent his whole life in Singapore and now he's got to leave and go to some country that he doesn't even really know. Why? Because of misguided parents who don't understand that doing 21 months of military service can help he to be a better person. In addition to that, it also gives him the opportunity to possibly take up citizenship if he wants too. It give him the opportunity to not have his whole life thrown into disarray by your actions 16 years earlier. You see, while the government leaves those "loopholes" there, they are holes that have lots of jagged edges and a single misstep means you son could very easily learn to hate you for not have better judgment.

As I said in my original post, if we stay here long term, the kids go to school here until they are older then I have no issue at all with them going to NS. I agree that would probably make them a better person even though I have not done the NS in Singapore or for a similar period of time. What I am afraid is that if I leave in, say 10 years, then I have a problem with them being drag back here for NS when they are no longer here. Is it also possible that they are on LTSVP or student pass now, and when they are a bit older, they can apply PR later? Anyone has done that?

[sundaymorningstaple]

That is probably a viable proposition. But probably only if it's done before they are 16.5 years of age. It does give you a reasonable option. Don't know if anyone has actually done it though.....

[singaporered]

Thanks SMS. I still have another 14 years before they reach 16.5 years old. I would have applied for PR for them if we stay here that long by then.

[metroguy]

A staff of mine has done it recently. He got PR for his wife and himself and a student pass for his son. He has done this after consulting with an ICA officer, so it is possible.

[kelsen83]

Hi singaporered,

Don't know if u'r still checking for replies.. Just wanna say tt it's really good tt you're thinking things thru so thoroughly. Yr kids are gonna appreciate tt when the time comes..

My best friend wanted to increase his chances of getting into a course in a local uni and so his dad suggested tt he applied for SPR. He became one for a couple of weeks till a letter arrived fr MINDEF asking him to go enlist for NS, by which time he had successfully secured a place in tt uni.. and so, he dropped his PR status and was under a student pass till he graduated two years ago.

Now this was when the repercussions of not carefully checking out everything tt needs to be checked out came- his EP was on "pending" status way after his coursemates started working (everyone started work on the same day), and he had to consider relocating, and faced the possibility of not being able to fulfill his bond and hence may hav to pay the penalties etc.

Things worked out in the end and he got his EP approved, but not before having to go thru many sleepless nights, and the worry and anxiety, etc. Yea.. so if only his parents had been better informed and advised him appropriately..

I love this place, we do. But make one wrong move or do something tt the will make the gov perceive as u'r trying to outsmart em or screw em over, they'll remember u for life.

Hope what i just shared helps, if not you then others who has similar decisions to make.

[Forks]

I think some of the posters on this thread raise some interesting points.

1. Should the children be penalized for a choice their parents made?

2. Why are the penalties for not doing national service so high? I know it serves as a deterrent but given the dislike of NS here in Singapore it seems to be flogging a dead horse.

Also the attitude that "just because something is so it should be" wears a bit thin at times, its sorta like in the US with the "like it or leave it" attitude, dissent is not tolerated. I know certain strains of dissent on this forum are frowned upon but unless it libelous all the OP wanted to know was some info about NS and they gotten treated pretty roughly for asking an honest question. And its not the first time that has happened, sometimes this forum can be rather unfriendly to new posters, often way more than other boards I go on, and all because they ask a question, based around a rather tricky set of laws, which have no real comparison in the rest of the world, which can have rather serious future consequences for their children.

Perhaps it would be politer to just direct them to the "questions about NS" sticky and be done with it.

Also PR is not citizenship, so its not for life its for people who live here a long time, most expats come here to work, not to live so why create a situation where its a disincentive to get a PR. Why not have a third category, or change the situation for being a PR, or when the child turns 18 gives them the option of choosing to stay and do NS or go, that would be much fairer, then the child gets to choose as an adult and the parent is not left making choices which their children will have to bear one way or another.

Im all for NS but Im not for the choice being forced on an individual by another, be that the govt or the parents.

[Rafale]

sundaymorningstaple, just a minor correction. NS is 2 years. If you achieve NAPFA Silver or Gold, duration will be 22 mths (2 mths off).

[taxico]

sundaymorningstaple, just a minor correction. NS is 2 years. If you achieve NAPFA Silver or Gold, duration will be 22 mths (2 mths off).

ahhh... you're forgetting annual leave, off-in-lieu and regular off-days... : )))) that makes up about another month, does it not! heh.

[deepanshu_s]

People like the OP give other expats in Sg a bad name and there are many like him whose intentions are suspect when applying for PR. Is it any wonder that so many locals feel resentment against these people? You want your cake and eat it too at the expense of others!

It would be interesting to see just how many PR's in Sg are still here after living here a few years. ICA must have a tracking system and I'm sure stats are available to see how the system is being taken advantage of. In fact, I've a good mind to write to them myself!

will save u the trouble, u can start by writing to me. I TOTALLY FULLY agree with the TS!!

So far throughout this thread u have been discussing NS, just to highlight a fact, NS is only for "MALE" children!!....now my colleague is a PR and has a daughter, he can move back whenever he want and spend his well saved cash in India and his daughter can still come here and apply for job and studies!!...weheras with a boy, I can not do any such thing!!...why such a discremination - i am paying equal taxes, right

My kid is 20 months and i have no intentions to take decision on his behalf...if at age of 13/14 when he understands where he has to stay then he can take his PR or go to India to continue his studies (i personally would prefer him going to India and finish his studies there), not that i have anything against the eductaion here or the NS.

My primary concern is that, singapore being such a wonderful country, we do not want to do anything that will hamper him from coming to study or work here in his prime age, when he will be more qualified to take decisions on his own.

[hibri2]

You want your cake and eat it too at the expense of others!

if we all bake the cake and some decide that they dont want it...



GC, on the other hand it is not that singapore is a welfare state and the OP is an immigrant who is not contributing to the system trying to exploit it ; there are myriad of reasons singapore provides the choice and the opportunity, the resentment you mention it is based on a unwarranted self-importance and lack of awareness and it has no logical or rational base at all.

add to that a very simple fact which is that the OP is trying to ponder choices which will not negatively affect his kids, that is absolutely perfect and understandable, i will find appalling a parent who will take a choice without considering that is affecting an individual that cant have a take or say on it, be it PR, baptisms or religious rituals, etc.