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Applying for PR - advices needed

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Applying for PR - advices needed

Postby singaporered » Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:00 am

I am thinking to apply for Singapore Permanent Residency (PR). However, I have two small sons and I want to avoid (or limit) any future complication about their NS after they turn 16. Based on my research (a lot from this forum. Thanks), I have 3 options:

1. Apply PR for the whole family, and cancel the PRs before my boys turn 11. As it seems, it can be done but there are also some potential issues such as they might not be able to come back to Singapore (e.g. to work). Some people said why I should think that far, but I just dont want any potential problems.

2. Only I and my wife apply for PR and we will need to apply for LTSVP for my boys, and when they are at school then we can apply for student passes for them. Has anyone done this before? Do you know any cases where the LTSVP were not granted. I dont want to send our kids back to our own country while we are here...

3. Do not apply for PR and stay as EP if we want to avoid any problems.

Just to put things straight, I dont mind my boys serving NS here if we stay here long term and they go to school here and serve NS. However, we do not know how long we will stay (the older kid is less than 3 years old) and I dont want my decision to apply for their PR cause them future issues. When they are a bit older and if we are still in Singapore, they can decide for themselves.

My question is that if anyone has been in a similar situation and if you have chosen one of the options above or is there another way? And even if you are not in this situation, do you know any other issues the above?

Any advices and experiences to share are very much appreciated.

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Postby waz » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:59 pm

Hi Singaporered.

You cannot have the best of both world..... oh well actually you could.

Anyway, for your first option, forget it. Don't get yourself into unnecessary trouble. SG govt will remember them to the grave.

For the second option, very likely they won't give your kids that pass. ICA not that stupid. Have a chat with ICA if you think you could try that.

For the last option, better option if you have no intention to stay.

Your wrote that you don't know how long or whether you will still be in Singapore, shows no genuine intention to make Singapore your permanent home (which is the reason for PR).

In this case, you are not really a genuine PR case, and what would then be your intention of getting a PR? Buy HDB, enjoy the benefits of PR, and compete for jobs with the the true PR and Citizen?
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Postby DimWit Kid » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 7:35 pm

Man.. you're gonna hear it from SMS as soon as he logged in! :mrgreen:

That aside, above poster was not correct. The second option is available. I and my wife used to, for about 3 years period, be the ones with PR-ship, while our daughter were not. She was schooled here, and she was on student pass (not LTSVP). They give it and they renew it every year. I don't even have to give a reason.

To be fair, though, 8 years has passed since, and ICA may have tighten up. What I'm saying is, if you want to try, there still is a chance for the second option to work.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:13 pm

You are so right! I'm chaffing at the bit but I'm gonna be a good ole farmboy and keep my mouth shut this time! I just hope his kids don't grow up hating him for making the wrong choices with somebody else's life.

Put 'em on a LTSVP till you know what you want to do. Better yet, stay on an EP. That way you don't take the place of somebody who actually WANTS to be here as a PR and not just for a easy visa if they lose their job! :mad:

:wink:

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Postby Global Citizen » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:08 pm

People like the OP give other expats in Sg a bad name and there are many like him whose intentions are suspect when applying for PR. Is it any wonder that so many locals feel resentment against these people? You want your cake and eat it too at the expense of others!

It would be interesting to see just how many PR's in Sg are still here after living here a few years. ICA must have a tracking system and I'm sure stats are available to see how the system is being taken advantage of. In fact, I've a good mind to write to them myself!
Last edited by Global Citizen on Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby singaporered » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:00 am

Thanks for all the replies. I am a bit surprised that so many people have strong negative opinions about doing this.

Just my view, I dont see the reason why I should only apply PR if I intend to stay here forever - that is more for citizenship, I suppose. I do plan to stay 3, 5, 10 years or whatever. But things could change, as everything else in life.

Because there is a chance that we might all leave, I dont want to put my sons into complicated situations, hence the questions and advices needed from you all. A few things that I need PR for are to apply a LTSVP for my parents so it is easier for them to stay with us for a few months, dont have to renew EP, easier for my wife to study (surprisingly) or work, and possibly easier to change employers even though I dont have intention to do so now, and I am not worried about getting a new EP, possibly buying HDB flats in future - not yet though. I dont have any intention to apply PR to get financial benefits and I am paying taxes like anyone else.

I called ICA late last week, their answers were politically correct as expected. They said it is possible for me & my wife to apply for PR and my kids' DP will be cancelled once I convert EP to PR. Then they will give the kids a 6-month visit pass, after that I can apply LTSVP as they are not at school yet. Once they go to school then I will need to apply student passes for them. They give no indication if the pass will or will not be approved or what the chances are.

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Postby Global Citizen » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 6:44 pm

singaporered wrote:Thanks for all the replies. I am a bit surprised that so many people have strong negative opinions about doing this.

Just my view, I dont see the reason why I should only apply PR if I intend to stay here forever - that is more for citizenship, I suppose. I do plan to stay 3, 5, 10 years or whatever. But things could change, as everything else in life.

Because there is a chance that we might all leave, I dont want to put my sons into complicated situations, hence the questions and advices needed from you all. A few things that I need PR for are to apply a LTSVP for my parents so it is easier for them to stay with us for a few months, dont have to renew EP, easier for my wife to study (surprisingly) or work, and possibly easier to change employers even though I dont have intention to do so now, and I am not worried about getting a new EP, possibly buying HDB flats in future - not yet though. I dont have any intention to apply PR to get financial benefits and I am paying taxes like anyone else.



I don't see it your way. Sorry. All the reasons you mentioned were for your benefit only and none to the country. Applying for PR should indicate an interest in remaining in the country permanently; hence the term permanent resident, not a step up to moving somewhere else as many do or the convenience of remaining here should you lose your job.

No one can really predict the future and things do change in one's life; that's a given and another story altogether and if that happens and you have to move on, so be it. However, there are many countries on this planet that stipulate that you fulfill certain residency obligations such as a requirement that you spend X number of days in the country if you have PR so the system isn't abused. What I've observed more often than not, is that many people aren't really sincere in their commitment when applying for PR and only do so for some of the reasons you've mentioned.
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Postby waz » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 5:25 am

GC

That's my thought too. PR = PERMANENT RESIDENCE. Not a stepping stone to another countries.

Paying tax does not give you that right to become PR. Singapore tax is very low, so the amount you pay probably cannot match to the security and benefits you enjoy. Foreigner pay tax too, as in any countries.

Therefore to become PR means a commitment to the country. To defend it and uphold its values.

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Postby singaporered » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:40 am

We can agree to disagree, but the problem that I face is that if we do intend to stay for long time, so I need to apply PR. But if there is a chance that we leave, then my boys would be in a lot of trouble.

I do agree about the right and responsibility of being a residence. It is the same here that if you are not here, you probably cant renew your PR. I also agree that PRs dont have the same benefit as singaporean, etc.

I am just asking an opinion and experiences that people have gone through. Morally, is it a right thing to do, or dont apply PR at all unless you prepare to serve the country, I will have to decide. But I am sure, I am not the only one with this dilemma.

Just for a discussion, but talking about "defending the country, etc", does it sound like for citizen of that country? For example, if I am a citizen of country A, PR of Singapore and the two countries go to war, who should my loyalty lie, purely based law (what you believe is another matter)? I think you should be loyal to your country of citizenship first right?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:03 pm

Based on the law it's never been testing in an international court like the Hague. It would be interesting. However, the answer is pretty clear up front if you think about it.

It's a contract willingly entered between a government and an individual where each requires and expect certain things from each other. The government says this is what I require from you if I give to you the PR you want. You say, I want this, so by my accepting PR, I inherit certain obligations which will pass down to my current or future offspring who also will inherit the same protections and benefits and obligations you are giving me.

If you don't agree with this, don't apply for it. Simple. Stay on EP and let somebody who is deserving and appreciative of PR have it. I and lots more of us are sick and tired of one-way freeloaders who want to listen to the music but don't want to pay the piper!

DWK, Guess I got into it after all! :P

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Postby singaporered » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 1:03 pm

Thanks for all the replies and your opinions. I should not disturb you guys any further.

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Postby ututu » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 6:16 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Based on the law it's never been testing in an international court like the Hague. It would be interesting. However, the answer is pretty clear up front if you think about it.

It's a contract willingly entered between a government and an individual where each requires and expect certain things from each other. The government says this is what I require from you if I give to you the PR you want. You say, I want this, so by my accepting PR, I inherit certain obligations which will pass down to my current or future offspring who also will inherit the same protections and benefits and obligations you are giving me.


The problem with this on legal grounds there are things I can't just commit on behalf of another person. If there is a legal precedent anywhere in developed world where multi generational contracts are entered into just with consent of single generation I'm certainly interested. Even in Japan multi generational mortgage does require offspring's' consent. Now in PR case, offspring is not of age to give a consent. Does parent's custodial right extend that far ? Such that the parent can commit his/her offspring to something w/o consent ? Does son inherit father's debts ? What about serving jail time for parent's offenses ? These are just theoretical questions, out of curiosity.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 6:43 pm

Does it really matter? In the final analysis, you can take your son out of Singapore anytime you like. No problem. You just screw up your son's life possibly that all. No problem taking him out of the country. He'll just never be able to return as he'll be a deserter. They won't send the army after him. He will never be able to return to Singapore in the future either, let alone work here. This isn't really a big problem either unless he gets picked up at the airport in the future while in transit (possible).

You really need to look at it from a beneficial perspective instead of a purely negative perception.

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Postby ututu » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 6:49 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Does it really matter? In the final analysis, you can take your son out of Singapore anytime you like. No problem. You just screw up your son's life possibly that all. No problem taking him out of the country. He'll just never be able to return as he'll be a deserter. They won't send the army after him. He will never be able to return to Singapore in the future either, let alone work here. This isn't really a big problem either unless he gets picked up at the airport in the future while in transit (possible).

You really need to look at it from a beneficial perspective instead of a purely negative perception.


But legal question is can the parent make a commitment on behalf of the offspring ? It used to be that parent could do that but I think modern legal system did away with offspring bearing consequences for parent's contractual choices. Because that's exactly what you referring to.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 9:37 pm

ututu wrote:But legal question is can the parent make a commitment on behalf of the offspring ? It used to be that parent could do that but I think modern legal system did away with offspring bearing consequences for parent's contractual choices. Because that's exactly what you referring to.


What country are you referring to? Singapore has it's own laws. The US doesn't believe in detention without trial (except for theoretical POW's) but the ISA is in full force in Singapore & Malaysia. The US Embassy will tell you that even if you are a US citizen, if you break Singapore laws while here, they cannot and will not do anything.


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