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Concubinage vs PACS (at French Embassy)

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pumpkinseed
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Concubinage vs PACS (at French Embassy)

Postby pumpkinseed » Sun, 21 Dec 2008 2:25 pm

Hi, can anyone help me define the difference between the 2? All documents I've found regarding this are in French which I am not that fluent in yet.

Would appreciate any help in this area. Thanks!

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Mon, 22 Dec 2008 3:45 am

Pacte civil de solidarité
In France, a pacte civil de solidarité (English: "civil pact of solidarity") commonly known as a PACS /paks/ (or PaCS), is a form of civil union between two adults (same-sex or opposite-sex) for organising their joint life. It brings rights and responsibilities, but less so than marriage. From a legal standpoint, a PACS is a "contract" drawn up between the two individuals, which is stamped and registered by the clerk of the court. Individuals who have registered a PACS are still considered "single" with regard to family status for some purposes, while they are increasingly considered in the same way as married couples are for other purposes.

Concubinage
Concubinage is the state of a woman or youth in an ongoing, quasi-matrimonial relationship with a man of higher social status. Typically, the man has an official wife and, in addition, one or more concubines. Concubines have limited rights of support from the man, and their offspring are publicly acknowledged as the man's children, albeit of lower status than children born by the official wife or wives.

If it's to do with bringing your girlfriend/boyfriend here, you will probably have to make an affidavit at the embassy or any solicitor, that you have lived together for a number of years. or months, whatever the rule is for qualification

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Postby pumpkinseed » Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:49 am

Thanks ksl! I got some of that from googling 'concubinage' as well.

However, in France, concubinage does not mean that the man is of higher social standing or is married to someone else. It's is a different level of commitment than PACS. I was just wondering what the exact differences are as I can't find anything online. All the documents I pulled up are vague in differentiating the 2. For example, if we have any children, it will be recognized as legitimate under French law but not under Singaporean law etc

Both of us are in Singapore already so no problem there. Just seeing what rights we have/have not here and back in France.

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Postby pumpkinseed » Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:18 am

Someone sent me a useful link:

http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=kl_ ... #PPA163,M1


Am trying to get through the legalese now. It's the most pertinent English document regarding this subject I've seen so far.


Just a quick note to anyone else reading this: Concubinage under French law iis not the same as the traditionally defined term which ksl described above. IIt's almost like a de facto/common law marriage in countries such as Australia.

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Postby ksl » Mon, 22 Dec 2008 2:13 pm

pumpkinseed wrote:Someone sent me a useful link:

http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=kl_ ... #PPA163,M1


Am trying to get through the legalese now. It's the most pertinent English document regarding this subject I've seen so far.


Just a quick note to anyone else reading this: Concubinage under French law iis not the same as the traditionally defined term which ksl described above. IIt's almost like a de facto/common law marriage in countries such as Australia.


Just a quick note to anyone else reading this: Concubinage under French law iis not the same as the traditionally defined term which ksl described above. IIt's almost like a de facto/common law marriage in countries such as Australia.

Interesting but the conclusion does point out a contractual liability in the link, before concubine status is used.

How can this be different in Aus, because the word concubine, I thought only applied to contractual partners and their 3rd party lovers. I find it difficult to understand there could be a definition of concubinage referring to two people, even though they are lovers and not living together. If they are under the same roof, then a defacto partnership i thought was normally the case.

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Postby Callalily » Mon, 22 Dec 2008 4:09 pm

Hi

concubinage is to live together as a couple, nothing official

PACS is an official bond between 2 people, a relationship contract is drawn between the 2. Not sure if it has any value for Singaporean authorities. Phone the embassy and ask.

Best wishes

Lily

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Postby pumpkinseed » Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:22 pm

ksl wrote:Interesting but the conclusion does point out a contractual liability in the link, before concubine status is used.

How can this be different in Aus, because the word concubine, I thought only applied to contractual partners and their 3rd party lovers. I find it difficult to understand there could be a definition of concubinage referring to two people, even though they are lovers and not living together. If they are under the same roof, then a defacto partnership i thought was normally the case.


What can I say, French people can be quite confusing lol

It definitely does not refer to 3rd party lovers though, I'm pretty sure of that.

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Postby pumpkinseed » Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:26 pm

Callalily wrote:Hi

concubinage is to live together as a couple, nothing official

PACS is an official bond between 2 people, a relationship contract is drawn between the 2. Not sure if it has any value for Singaporean authorities. Phone the embassy and ask.

Best wishes

Lily


Hi Lily,

I wanted to ask here first as one of my friends who called the embassy to ask for more info was told to get the French citizen to call instead! But no harm for me to try again.

I doubt concubinage is unofficial though as you sign a form that 'declares you are living together as husband and wife under French civil law..."
Am just trying to see what impact that has on your taxation rights, insurance, inheritance etc

Thanks for your input!

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Postby Callalily » Tue, 23 Dec 2008 2:35 pm

Hi

I found this on wikipedia. sorry all in French but I thought your partner (French?) might be able to translate.

Le pacte civil de solidarité (PACS) est un contrat conclu entre deux personnes majeures (les partenaires), quel que soit leur sexe, pour organiser leur vie commune.

Ce texte est né d'une volonté de combler le vide juridique entourant les couples non mariés, y compris homosexuels. Dispositif universel, il apporte une sécurité juridique minimale, se situant entre le concubinage, statut flou mais garant d’une certaine liberté, et le mariage.

Le PACS s'écarte du mariage principalement par ses modalités de dissolution : la dissolution est automatique à la demande d'un des partenaires. En outre, contrairement au mariage, le PACS est ouvert aux couples de même sexe.

Plus de 200 000 PACS ont été signés durant les six premières années d'existence du dispositif, de 1999 à 2005[1]. Sa concrétisation, de la conception à la mise en application, fut longue et difficile. Le régime des biens, au départ centré sur l'indivision, ce qui posait de nombreux problèmes, a été modifié par la loi du 23 juin 2006, qui prévoit désormais, à défaut de convention contraire, que le régime des biens est celui du mariage selon le régime de la séparation de biens. En outre, son régime fiscal a été progressivement aligné sur celui du mariage par la loi en faveur du travail, de l'emploi et du pouvoir d'achat votée en juillet 2007.

Basically, the PACS is similar to a mariage certificate. It is just much easier/quickerto break that bond than a marriage but is regulated in the same ways. It is also open to all sex relationships. The concubinage is the ancestor of the pacs and has very little value tbh in terms of law,... I am a French national so happy to give the embassy a call on your behalf if needed. indeed, the french can be rather confusing!! I had to check out wikipedia!!!

Take care
Lily


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