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Is Singapore brutal for using the cane

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road.not.taken
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Postby road.not.taken » Sat, 02 Aug 2008 7:27 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
road.not.taken wrote: but that does not mean I need to eat my own young, murder my mate after copulation, or steal another's infant. We are after all, gifted with more than just opposable thumbs, we are supposed to have free will as well.


Yeah, that's the crux of it isn't it. It's the free will that we have that let's us do exactly those things you just mentioned. We read about them in the papers all the time don't we. So are we that far removed, or as EF said, higher up in the hierarchy, intellectually, from the giraffe? Or, is it only a triggering mechanism that is needed to set off our baser instincts? The so called evils (I can only guess that is what you consider them as you seem to think them as undesirable traits - I'm not disagreeing with you here), would seem to me, are a part of everybody and like feats of superhuman strength in a crisis, would reside in each and every one of us. The only thing missing is the relevant trigger to bring it to the fore.


That may be true, we all have a breaking point, some hit children as a routine, a choice -- others as a last resort, others I suppose, like me have never been pushed far enough to find the last resort. The difference is some use it as a pre-meditaded choice and the rest of us are on a sliding scale of 'maybe'.

Some get to maybe sooner, rather than later.

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Postby ksl » Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:16 am

I also think that there are many factors also involved in a childs misbehaviour to be considered, before reaching for the cane, and even though it is entirely another topic, it maybe helpful to mention the effects of hyperactivity syndrome now, fo rthose that don't know about it.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... tion.shtml

It may well be true that good parental guidance is all, that is needed, the only problem with that is the same as getting the perfect wife, or husband, it just doesn't happen. Kids manipulate from birth, and will most certainly find the weaknesses, within the parents and utilies them in a grotesque way, if too weak.

I have seen my own daughter actually thump my wife and call her names, simply because the mother is weak in discipline and against violence, kids will test and dominate weak people, until they do find their breaking point and they do find it.

I sincerely believe that most parents would not cane their kids, for trivial matters, I know, I don't.
Last edited by ksl on Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:50 am

EADG wrote:I must be very Western

Yes, you are. And if you want to bring the East-West divide into the picture, then let me say something. We make an effort to understand you. I perfectly identify with your stance and would even say I agree. I have never hit or yelled at a child, and don't intend to. But I know why it's done here. We make an effort to understand. We send our young people abroad to understand, to have a global perspective. But this is not reciprocated. You come here and think we should do it your way. So you can only run one program, the Western one, and we are capable of running two programs, perhaps more. And the machine with more capability and flexibility wins in the long run. And this is why the world's economic and political epicentre is shifting.

On a personal note, your exaggerated mockery is not appreciated. Come and meet my mother, and watch us interact, and tell her to her face, and to mine, that she is not loving and well-meaning. And yes, she caned me. Your program cannot understand this, and you won't even try. That is your loss. It changes nothing in the world, which is the way it is. No loving parent ever looks at a newborn child and says, "one day I'm going to cane this thing". Just as no one ever gets married planning that "one day we're going to divorce." These things happen. We can choose to understand, or we can choose to remain rigid and judge.

For old time's sake, to maintain whatever goodwill is left, I will probably stop responding to your posts, just as I have learned to ignore others. I find myself increasingly unable to read your posts and feel anything positive about them. It's all cynical and critical. Debate is healthy when both sides remain open-minded and can learn from each other. To just make the effort to understand is good enough, though we often fail to immediately, and it takes time to stretch our minds. It is however vexing and pointless when minds are closed, perhaps held prisoner by a superiority complex.

Shalom.

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Postby ksl » Sun, 03 Aug 2008 1:43 am

EADG : To even consider caning another human being will gladly remain barbaric and beyond this Westerner:
I have to agree with this 100% .

Two minds think alike and only time will tell if this will be true or not, I sincerely hope it's true for you, because it wasn't for me.

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Postby EADG » Sun, 03 Aug 2008 5:42 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Yes, you are.


A passionate after-midnight rant. I can admit that I’m no stranger to them myself.

Apologies if you took the levity or anything else personal, I wasn't mocking you. And this isn't about "you". I do stand by my stance on caning, but it wasn’t directed at you, though I can see how you may have felt that way. And aw, come on, I heard you chuckling at one of them all the way over here!

But there are just too many presumptions and generalizations there for anyone to seriously reply to.

“We’s”
Last edited by EADG on Mon, 04 Aug 2008 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby micknlea » Sun, 03 Aug 2008 11:34 pm

Hi there EF...you asked the following.

Could it also explain your pacifist attitude? I have never seen you resort to strong language or exegeration to make your point. You have always come across as being balanced and measured in your response, and still able to get your point across. This forum would be a much calmer and peaceful place if we have more posters like you. I would say you parent did a fine job with you. Their parenting style is well suited to your temperament. However, there are people born inherently violent in nature and need a certain amount of physical input to learn respect and boundaries.


Perhaps the fact that my parents brought up myself and my siblings the same way, without caning or similar is why I have the temperament that I do. :wink:

I think maybe once I can remember a gentle smack, and that was to stop something dangerous happening, but no threats (and I am sorry it is a threat) that I would be punished if my grades weren't good enough or I didn't eat my dinner or anything like that. I grew up with rules and boundaries and knew not to go over them. Not with any physical means as a threat, perhaps being grounded if I didn't come home when I was supposed to or I lost privilegs or the like but nothing else.

You don't need to tell me about children with temperaments that may not fit that mold, I know them well believe me I have first hand knowledge.

KSL, interesting to read that your daughter will threaten to thump your wife as she considers her weak etc. So does this mean that your caning (or whatever ) is not an effective threat to stop her? Surely she should obey the rules knowing that you will punish her? Perhaps I was reading it wrongly but I thought you said you used it and so it was effective, this to me means that it is not effective at all.
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Postby hiking out » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 8:55 am

EADG wrote:
And aw, come on, I heard you chuckling at one of them all the way over here!


Is that another attempt at humour?


EADG,
What's your stance on eating meat?
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Postby ksl » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 3:00 pm

Micknlea:KSL, interesting to read that your daughter will threaten to thump your wife as she considers her weak etc. So does this mean that your caning (or whatever ) is not an effective threat to stop her? Surely she should obey the rules knowing that you will punish her?


The caning was not effective, she actually gave me cheek and stood defiantly and said that it doesn't hurt, so I did whack her much harder than normal, which upset me, that my eyes filled up.

After that incident I sat down with her and discussed a few options, about being good and bad, and also about other feelings of being moody, and the way she spoke back to her mother, I was well aware of her manipulation of my wife, and she showed my wife no respect at all, never doing anything my wife asked her too, she also started taking other children things in school, it was quite a challenging time, although her teachers explained she was quite the opposite in school, very well mannered and was a leader in the class, full of confidence.

I broke the cane up and threw it out, I said to myself, I would never ever smack her again, (although tongue in cheek) It was such a bad period, I was wanting to leave home, I blamed much on my wife, because my wife is so weak in making decisions, that are important to our daughters manners, and behaviour.

Which are totally alien to myself, I have no idea if it's a common theme with Chinese families, although we have five other children, that my daughter grew up with in Taiwan, it's a typical scenario that grandparents pass the kids, while others work. I found that, they are allowed to do anything they want, having no respect for material goods, like DVD's TV's, or any other adults property.

So I used to scold my daughter if she touched anything of mine, anyway, my wife would just allow these things to happen, the girl always did what she wanted, and If i butted in my daughter would run to grandmother, typical child manipulation..

The grand parents would then get on at me for being so hard, although from an early age, I had learned to respect other peoples property, and I was determined that she learned the value of things.

All ended well after the last caning and my daughter and I sat down and made some agreements, I started to give her more responsibility, in the home, and let her have pets, and discussed how wrong it was to speak to mummy in a raised voice, lacking respect.

We talked of manipulation which she understood, that if she treated mummy badly mummy would reward her with what she wanted, basically give in and let her have her own way. I pointed out, that I have always known this, and that I have to put a stop to it.

So we agreed that she gets more respect from us, if she does as she is told, and that if she works with us, rather than against us, I would throw the can out.

I do agree the cane is bad, and I myself have mostly only had it for what I have known to be my own fault, and it's true to say, that the cane doesn't work if used often, as a youth in school, I became immune to it, I still too the risks of getting in fights rather than being bullied.

The kids environment is a real rough place, and i will say there are some little bastards out there in those schools, that normally bully in gangs of 2 or more, also which my daughter must also deal with, because she doesn't want the embarrassment of daddy getting involved.

I believe my daughter is developing her social skills, in a positive way, and I now feel, that the more responsibility I give her, the more mutual respect there is...

It isn't easy explaining to an 8 year old, that she must go to bed, because of school, when she turns around and says what about you two, you sit up all night and have to go to work. So I can also sit up and go to school.

Working together is far more beneficial than a cane, and I have never used it to threat, and I have always tried to be rational, and this is why i can say with 100% knowledge and experience that people will break, once their tolerance levels have been reached.

In 18 months of bouncing on nightclub doors, i have only at to ever defend myself twice, because i am a diplomatic type of guy, I have the patience, not only for that, but also to stand in front of a rioting crowd of people, that want to take your head off.

So I am well aware of my tolerance levels, yet my wife who is a none violent person, and a very loving one, doesn't get the respect she deserves, and if she blows, I can tell you, that she is a time bomb, that will react in a very violent manner, with no control whatsoever.

So it may be a little cynical of me, to doubt others words, but i have very good reason to believe they are human, and humans, that believe they can maintain control, without the experience of having to maintain control, will actually blow up, like a time bomb.

Pure fact, that all humans have their breaking point, and those that have never known or tested their tolerance levels. quite often result in cases of manslaughter.

That's also one reason why it is better to walk away from from trouble. Don't get me wrong, like others have done, I'm far from being the hard person, it's just that my tolernce of pain is very high, but my emotional state of mind is quite low, I have have grown up with suffering and for many years have carried the burden of others on my shoulders.

So my experiences of life, have taught me to be calculated in what i do, I have options open to me and i will use, them....

This is why i can say to the hardest man in the world, their is no such thing as hard men, just bullies, you can beat me all you want, but you can never win...why because i am a calculated man, I can kill at anytime if i want and i know it, to do it is another matter, it is a well balanced emotional state of mind that I have, if I didn't have the well balanced mind, I would blow up and cause possible manslaughter, within a split second.

I know the so called non violent people, to live in untested waters in many cases, like my wife, they just lose control, when they blow, and irrational rage is a very bad excuse.

So I will agree with all, that the cane doesn't work for displine, it works for punishment only, to install fear, but sometimes fear is the only way.

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Postby Vaucluse » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 3:38 pm

Umm, why is this thread called 'Singapore' and not 'Parents'

road.not.taken
To me, the proponents of caning children almost sound like victims suffering Stockholm Syndrome


My first thought as well - and I would never even think about caning my two, despite their actions . . . I find it barbaric and had hoped we (as a society) had understood a bit more about child-rearing in the last few decades.

My father whipped me with his belt, cooking spoons and the like . . . did that make me understand why I had done wrong? Hardly . . . I loathed the jerk for what he did.
Smacking was acceptable to me, using an object to beat me with was not.

I also don't smack my kids, aside from an occasional slap on the fingers when there is danger of burning or so - more as a fright than the giving of pain . . .

Giving pain to my children? :?
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Postby EADG » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 6:56 pm

Vaucluse wrote:Umm, why is this thread called 'Singapore' and not 'Parents'


not sure, but is caning done anywhere else?
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Postby durain » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 7:16 pm

EADG wrote:
Vaucluse wrote:Umm, why is this thread called 'Singapore' and not 'Parents'


not sure, but is caning done anywhere else?


most 3rd world countries?

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Postby Vaucluse » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 7:23 pm

durain wrote:
EADG wrote:
Vaucluse wrote:Umm, why is this thread called 'Singapore' and not 'Parents'


not sure, but is caning done anywhere else?


most 3rd world countries?


. . . and worse.

Get the bleak-coloured glasses off, people - I've said it before, Singapore is by no stretch of the imagination a bad/underdeveloped/cruel/undemocratic/soul-less etc etc place
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Postby EADG » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 7:36 pm

Vaucluse wrote: . . . and worse.


yes, apparently in other parts of the world getting stoned has a somewhat different meaning than some of us may have been accustomed to
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Postby Vaucluse » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 8:06 pm

EADG wrote:
Vaucluse wrote: . . . and worse.


yes, apparently in other parts of the world getting stoned has a somewhat different meaning than some of us may have been accustomed to


. . . neevrer, I olwwwwwwwwwwweys sheeeve like dis Image
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Postby ksl » Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:47 pm

well well well, it looks like caning was introduced by the British throughout the Empire days. Like Cricket :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning

I much prefer the cane to all the other sadistic punishments they have in UK....how about the science teacher that gives electric shocks, you have to hold on the two wires, while he rotates the handle.

Then we have the plimsol, the board duster and Charles favourite side burn twist and lift.

The cane is mild, to what people had in the 1800 's.. I can't wait until they get stun guns :lol: for some of the idiots in UK today...and when EADG and others say how barbaric it is, I have also got to agree. Durian says it's mostly 3rd world Countries, again I have to agree that the UK is a 3rd world Country, and I have seen no signs of change since the Victorian days, although the odd agony aunt scores points now and then, through the occasional outburst.

Fox Hunting, dog fights, hare coursing, beasting, boxing, have all been introduced by the intellectual hierarchy at one time or another, Joe blogs is the victim every time, life goes through the ringing machine....How can the barbarian English, be recognised has gentlemen?

I have always been the first to respect those that deserve respect and I have always been one to know what is right & what is wrong.

I have no respect for British law, or any other law, that changes laws to suit it's own political genders, and I have no respect for laws, interfering with children and parenting.

Cultures are so widely different, and the rasing of children is so widely different too, basically common sense should be enough for parents, and its obviously not the case, and some need to be governed.

But to make a laws banishing the parental punishment of children is a ridiculous law, and very much more beneficial than psychological torture, which probably replaces the beatings. OK parents do know, that they can be prosecuted for caning, but not for psychological threats, personally i find the laws world wide are totally barbaric...

But having had a taste of prison, I can actually vouch for all, that they come out of prison, better prepared for crime, than when they went in and today, some actually try to break into the prisons because of the luxury. I'll do whatever i have to do, to keep my kid on the straight and narrow, and my two fingers are up at society in general.

I've had my fill of governments in this life, which is too short to worry about laws, politics, religion, football, baseball, and women... :lol:


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