Is Singapore brutal for using the cane

[andy21]

Crimes that have caused massive physical damage to another, for example. Rape, reckless driving leading to serious injury, assault with deadly weapons, etc. Caning for smuggling cigarettes is ridiculous.

Smuggling of cigarettes causes massive financial pain to the government! I don't think they feel any other kind of pain.

My dad used to cane me as a kid as well, for misbehaviour and for poor grades. I am not certain I improved in either espect as a result. The grades certainly didn't!

I can see why some parents might see the benfit in applying physical force on their kids, but with my son due in about 2 months, I am not inclined towards doing the same.

LIke Plavt and someothers, I think the sort of fear instilled in a child from being caned, especially when parents' lose control of their tempers (which is likely, since tempers tend to build up very quickly) has little to offer the child in the course of personal development.

I see many individuals who have grown up under parents attempting to impose their will on their children by almost and all means necessary to be poorly adjusted, and a lot of their behaviour revolves unconsciously around being 'good' and conforming to the expectations of their parents. And such behaviour brings along many negative traits as well, such as passive-aggressive behaviour. Oh, this is starting to sound like an entire population I know!

I think being firm with them is a better approach. If they don't like it, they can go to their room and sulk until they realize that sulking and behaving badly yields no reward.

As for education, encouragement would do much better. I don't think any studies will associate being caned with superior academic performance.

As for public caning for criminal offences, I can see why it can serve as an effective deterrent in some cases. But it's use here, as has been pointed out, is hardly judicious.

And no, I do not think fear instilled as a child leads them to being compassionate towards others when they grow up. I would think it's the contrary actually.

[ScoobyDoes]

I wonder if the kids in the UK now - that are openly confrontational even with the police - would be different if discipline of any form could be used in schools.

The problem is hoodies and the rest knowing they can, virtually, get away with murder.



You know, there is a rumour in the mill now that in addition to the planned ID cards in the UK, National Service could be making a comeback to reign in the indiscipline.

[banana]

And no, I do not think fear instilled as a child leads them to being compassionate towards others when they grow up. I would think it's the contrary actually.

IMHO, the problem with New Age thinking is that every emotion is in isolation of every other. ie; fear can only lead to more fear, compassion can only lead to more compassion. You may not agree but my understanding is that everything has a polar opposite that can occur with the application of one. That is to say, fear can lead to compassion and vice versa.

How can a person who has never experienced physical pain otherwise relate to the same being inflicted on another? And in the opposite, has it never been the case where a compassionate person been taken advantage of, to the point where he/she no longer trust others? Extreme personality types on either end belong in the domain of media, theatre and spiritual quests. In reality, not so much.

[Plavt]

in the UK, National Service could be making a comeback to reign in the indiscipline.

I don't know who the hell has been telling you that but with shrinking armed forces, cuts in military spending, increased use of IT and the need for better educated personnel, conscription has been ruled out for years and will continue to be so. Please note one reason if not the main one; conscription was scrapped because conscripts didn't adhere well to military discipline.

[andy21]

How can a person who has never experienced physical pain otherwise relate to the same being inflicted on another? And in the opposite, has it never been the case where a compassionate person been taken advantage of, to the point where he/she no longer trust others? Extreme personality types on either end belong in the domain of media, theatre and spiritual quests. In reality, not so much.

All these experiences you cite are valid, but it is also important to note that they all work both ways.

A person who has experienced physical, and metaphysical pain (often related tot he physical pain) has as much capacity to become more compassionate towards others, as he or she does to become less compassionate.

It is a function of the degree of pain they have received, and this may be magnified or mitigated by their own innate psychological makeup and chemicals flowing through their brains.

Take for example the young man who went on the stabbing spree in Tokyo. It is clear compassion is lacking in his actions, and clear that he thinks he's not getting any as well. It is likely that another person who experienced almost identical childhood experiences will be this man's polar oposite.

How people turn out as a result of their experiences, in this particualr discussion, being caned would be the experience, is determined by many factors other than pain.

I am sure for many, this has been a factor leading to them being more compassionate amongst other things. For many I have come across though, I am afraid I have seen just the opposite. Maybe they have the wrong kinds of chemicals flowing throuhg their brains.

[banana]

How can a person who has never experienced physical pain otherwise relate to the same being inflicted on another? And in the opposite, has it never been the case where a compassionate person been taken advantage of, to the point where he/she no longer trust others? Extreme personality types on either end belong in the domain of media, theatre and spiritual quests. In reality, not so much.

All these experiences you cite are valid, but it is also important to note that they all work both ways.

A person who has experienced physical, and metaphysical pain (often related tot he physical pain) has as much capacity to become more compassionate towards others, as he or she does to become less compassionate.

It is a function of the degree of pain they have received, and this may be magnified or mitigated by their own innate psychological makeup and chemicals flowing through their brains.

Take for example the young man who went on the stabbing spree in Tokyo. It is clear compassion is lacking in his actions, and clear that he thinks he's not getting any as well. It is likely that another person who experienced almost identical childhood experiences will be this man's polar oposite.

How people turn out as a result of their experiences, in this particualr discussion, being caned would be the experience, is determined by many factors other than pain.

I am sure for many, this has been a factor leading to them being more compassionate amongst other things. For many I have come across though, I am afraid I have seen just the opposite. Maybe they have the wrong kinds of chemicals flowing throuhg their brains.

Exactly my point. People can tut tut all they want about corporal punishment but removing it entirely will not change a damn thing. In fact it may even exacerbate the problem - a bunch of fearless kids doing whatever the hell they want with no regard for others, tormenting the weak(er) because they don't know what its like to feel pain. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

No, I lie. That's not exactly it. I'd go as far to say that a person who has never experienced pain CANNOT be truly compassionate. An intellectual commiseration is just pity. Perhaps some of the disapproval stem from people trying to compensate from their own misgivings. Or simply jumping on the New Age bandwagon.

[ksl]

ksl wrote:
It's really amazing how people can judge others without actually knowing them, maybe pop a pill to slow the brain down, if your imagination is running away with you.

Hello Pot, meet Kettle.

Some people have limited capacity Banana, they try hard, but just cannot grasp the picture, that's life, others are afraid of their own shadow, instead of learning to live with it.

We all deal with the problems in our own way, although it doesn't help one bit, to deny, that caning doesn't exist around the world, when you have faced fear, you will also know your own capabilities to over come that fear, my biggest fear was when I was cornered with being killed, that I had no alternative, but to remove the threat.
If i am to die, i will go out fighting.

I am not surprised that that road.not.taken maybe a little shocked, however the world is not paradise island.
When someone intends to take your head off, or rape your backside, in a confined space, after watching him do it to another prisoner you will know exactly what i mean about fear. It's your life or his.

I can't help that people puke up with the thought of discipline, I had probably 16 years of home discipline and 12 years of military, which can be done standing on your head, if prepared for it, and it certainly hasn't effected my own outlook on kids being punished by the cane if need be.

My own daughter also went through a phase of back chat and verbal abuse to her mother, and even at her age, she threatened to report me, if i caned her. the warnings were loud and clear. and she over stepped her mark and it's never happened since.

I'm afraid a controlled spanking is much more effective than a raging bull, although it's all a matter of opinion. I can agree with many of your points for once, how strange!

There maybe one good thing that comes out of this thread, parents that are against caning and corporal punishment, can just say to their naughty kids, "Just see how lucky, you are" if KSL had, you, you would be flogged to the bone, get a beasting and sent to bed Lets see what that does for peoples imagination Did you know i am hand feeding a baby bird, that fell out of the nest?

Callous me...most definitely not! I preserve life, with vinegar...and its excellent to soak the cane in too. Only joking folks!

Plavt I fully understand your opinion and other peoples too, it would be nice to find alternative ways, and i have tried quite a few, with my own kids, it appears they only listen, when the cane comes out, especially with homework.

With regards to UK National Service and discipline I would like to see your reference, to support your argument, I can recall in the late 60's young offenders were given a choice of prison or the military, most opted for the military, here's what i found on UK conscription

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Service I hope they do bring it back.

[ScoobyDoes]

in the UK, National Service could be making a comeback to reign in the indiscipline.

I don't know who the hell has been telling you that but with shrinking armed forces, cuts in military spending, increased use of IT and the need for better educated personnel, conscription has been ruled out for years and will continue to be so. Please note one reason if not the main one; conscription was scrapped because conscripts didn't adhere well to military discipline.

It was actually reported on BBC Online earlier this week.

With regards the downsizing of the forces and the costs involved we have to consider which costs more, the armed forces or the cost of delinquents in society? If you include insurance claims, time spent at Her Magisty's Pleasure, the dole and the rest then i would sooner see money spent on National Service than prisons.

You might argue you get more use of "prisoners" in NS than behind bars but maybe we consider NS instead of prison wherby law abiding kids can happily just go off to college/uni.

Not adhering well is better than not adhering at all, which is the case at the moment a lot of the time.

[Addadude]

I have absolutely no problems with Singapore caning the criminals it does. None at all. I wish more Western countries (including my own) would adopt this 'barbaric' practice.

I DO however have a BIG problem with the physical punishment of children OTHER than by their parents.

Like just about every other adult of my age, I got my fair share of smacks and thumps from both my Mum and Dad when I was growing up. I dare say I deserved just about very whack I got. It didn't particularly traumatise me in any way and, at least as far as I can tell, it resulted in a fairly well adjusted adult. I believe that my parents punished me for my misbehaviour out of love and concern (and no doubt they were pissed off with me at times too...). It was their right and duty to do so.

However when it comes to corporal punishment in schools, I am in total disagreement. A teacher or headmaster has no right to physically punish any child other than their own.

So many years later, I still have very clear memories of Mr. Desmond, my 1st Year Primary teacher who got his kicks walloping the tiny hands of 6-year olds like myself with his blackboard pointer. Or Mr. O'Shea, the headmaster and a very large man and the way he caned kids like us who were so much smaller than he.

In secondary school I went to a Christian Brothers school. Obviously in such an educational insitution, corporal punishment was the order of the day - with a particularly nasty instrument of torture called The Leather. (Have you ever noticed that it is almost always the so-called 'religious schools' that are the more brutal ones?)

Some teachers (mainly the Christian Brothers themselves) were more prone to using it than others. But, whatever the reason for the punishment, I always felt that it was massively unfair. This became especially obvious when I realised that the kids who were 16 or older were never caned.

The 'official' reason given for this was that they were supposed to be more 'mature' and therfore had to be treated more like adults - with adult-level of punishments like suspension or, in the worst case scenario, expulsion.

In fact the real (and very obvious) reason for not physically punishing these boys was the simple fact that, at 15 or 16, they were usually the same size as or bigger than the teachers. And, if a boy who's bigger than his teacher doesn't want to hold out his hand (or bend over) to be caned, there is not a whole lot the teacher can do about it.

Smaller kids of course have no choice. Which in my eyes then and now, makes such corporal punishment by teachers nothing short of bullying: a larger person hitting a smaller person who can't fight back.

[ksl]

addadude: Smaller kids of course have no choice. Which in my eyes then and now, makes such corporal punishment by teachers nothing short of bullying: a larger person hitting a smaller person who can't fight back.

Nice post, to a certain extent I fully agree, I still cringe at the thought of being picked up by my side burns.

[Wind In My Hair]

When a baby giraffe is born (bear with me, there's a point here) and falls from the womb to the ground, it struggles to stand and when it finally does, its mother immediately kicks it till it falls again. Once again it stands and once again she kicks. Again and again until the baby can stand and walk easily. This is essential for survival for you never know when a predator will appear and the baby needs to run on short notice.

The point is this: what seems cruel has a loving purpose. An unknowing observer in her quickness to judge may rush to 'protect' the baby giraffe, stop the mother from kicking it, and thereby possibly doom the baby to a quick death. If we do not judge the giraffe, why do we judge other humans? Is anyone of us omniscient enough to know if we do more harm than good by telling others to stop hitting their children?

[Plavt]

It was actually reported on BBC Online earlier this week.

With regards the downsizing of the forces and the costs involved we have to consider which costs more, the armed forces or the cost of delinquents in society? If you include insurance claims, time spent at Her Magisty's Pleasure, the dole and the rest then i would sooner see money spent on National Service than prisons.

You might argue you get more use of "prisoners" in NS than behind bars but maybe we consider NS instead of prison wherby law abiding kids can happily just go off to college/uni.

Not adhering well is better than not adhering at all, which is the case at the moment a lot of the time.

I haven't seen the article but my advice is forget it, this has been discussed before and will result in nothing and is not even practical (rather like the government's intended 'work-fare' scheme)! The downsizing of forces is not simply a matter of costs, the reliance on IT has eradicated the need for a large number of personnel. That is one reason you don't see as many sailors and other naval personnel in cities such as Portsmouth or Bath. In addition many posts in the armed forces by necessity require qualifications that many offenders do not have. Not adhering well or not adhering is what the military commanders do not want since it was they who by and large requested the abolition of NS. Going off to college and University now often depends on one's finances. Seems you are either misinformed or have been away a long time.

[sundaymorningstaple]

WIMH,

And once more you give us food for thought. Excellent presentation and follow through. Thank you for hitting the nail right squarely on the head.

I have stayed out of this one as I've been in it so many time before and all know where I stand on the matter anyway but now it looks like it's a few more than ksl & myself. Now, lets see, where did I lay that razorstrop?

[ScoobyDoes]

I haven't seen the article but my advice is forget it, this has been discussed before and will result in nothing and is not even practical (rather like the government's intended 'work-fare' scheme)! The downsizing of forces is not simply a matter of costs, the reliance on IT has eradicated the need for a large number of personnel. That is one reason you don't see as many sailors and other naval personnel in cities such as Portsmouth or Bath. In addition many posts in the armed forces by necessity require qualifications that many offenders do not have. Not adhering well or not adhering is what the military commanders do not want since it was they who by and large requested the abolition of NS. Going off to college and University now often depends on one's finances. Seems you are either misinformed or have been away a long time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7504980.stm

This video is already a couple of weeks old and the debate moved on. I can't precisely pick out the report i read last week.

[Petales Soufflez!]

I have 10 hours of driving ahead of me so I can't linger. But I agree mostly with what Banana and Wind In The Hair had to say. Punishment may look bad but done in the right circumstances it could serve an important purpose. And sometimes we have to look beyond just the simple punishment, life as it is holds much more than what we can explain in a few lines. What is negative may lead to something positive, empathy comes with experience etc.

In any case kids, soldiers etc today are no longer what they used to be. My son's teacher (here in the International School in Italy) was fired because she screamed (too often) at the kids. I didn't care if she screamed as long as she did her job. But the other parents just couldn't take anything any more. And those kids are just good for computer games and play dates and less homework. When you think that kids in Asia are working harder than ever, how are my kids going to compete?

Anyway, have fun sharing. See you all in a few weeks. Ciao!