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Is Singapore brutal for using the cane

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Is Singapore brutal for using the cane

Postby ksl » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:30 pm

I fell over this by accident, and i must confess I'm a believer in the cane for punishment.

Believe it or not, kids in the 50's and 60's had the cane as a regular punishment in school in the UK...and we accepted it, we deserved it, and feared it, and without a doubt it had an effect, to try harder to not get caught or avoid trouble altogether, I recall 6 or 8 of us would discuss the consequences before doing anything wrong. Some could take the punishment better than others.

Although we never had it on the bare bottom, it left large welts on the skin, mostly the teachers would give it on each hand, and the headmaster for some reason always went for the bottom.

Had 6 of the best just after assembly one morning, those British schools most definitely need it back in society.

The link is a good read on the American youth, I'm sure he will never forget it, because he will now have much more respect for the punishment, and it really does hurt.

http://www.corpun.com/sgju9404.htm

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Postby Petales Soufflez! » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:06 pm

Depends on which cane you're refering to, of course. The one used by the prison authority tears your skin and you actually need a doctor on standby plus they have rules about the maximum number of strokes you can have in a day etc. still, for certain crimes like rape, pedophilia etc, could be a suitable punishment.

My mom used to have a cane in every room at home and I still remember my Primary 6 Headmistress (fondly and with loads of respect) with her cupboard full of canes donated by parents. At the beginning of the year she would show us her canes and explain to us when and how she would use them. I've gotten a couple of strokes on the palm for stuff like mischief and failure to memorise my spelling lists and I still thank her for that. Pity they don't let teachers touch the kids nowadays turning them into brats.

Myself I've ahem kept a few in my home for my own kids. Used it on them a few times and after that I just need to use it as a tool for threatening. We all know of course that too much caning doesn't serve any purpose except harden the skin and make the victim blasé about it.
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Postby micknlea » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:40 am

I've gotten a couple of strokes on the palm for stuff like mischief and failure to memorise my spelling lists and I still thank her for that.


You thank her for caning you? Why? You were so badly behaved that you wouldn't have done it otherwise? :???: You are saying this tongue in cheek aren't you?

Funnily enough we didn't have caning or anything like it as I grew up, at school or at home, but still I managed to follow the rules etc. My parents instilled in me the rights and wrongs of life without the need for violence.
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Postby durain » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 1:07 am

ahem...

remember Michael P. Fay? dont do the crime if you cant take the cane. :P

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Postby Petales Soufflez! » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 1:43 am

micknlea wrote:
I've gotten a couple of strokes on the palm for stuff like mischief and failure to memorise my spelling lists and I still thank her for that.


You thank her for caning you? Why? You were so badly behaved that you wouldn't have done it otherwise? :???: You are saying this tongue in cheek aren't you?

Funnily enough we didn't have caning or anything like it as I grew up, at school or at home, but still I managed to follow the rules etc. My parents instilled in me the rights and wrongs of life without the need for violence.


Yes, I thank her for caning me. I didn't misbehave more than other kids my age and had always been among the best in class and in standard.

But what I retained went beyond simple punishment or caning. I will always remember the respect that she has instilled in us for discipline. The rules were spelt out to us right from the beginning, a contract "signed" between teacher, class and parents. She was there to help us succeed our final year in Primary School, which meant passing the PSLE, moving on to another school, moving on to more subjects, to gifted, express or normal stream, teenagehood, new friends etc etc.

At the age of 12, we may sometimes lose sight of our immediate goals. We were kids after all. But we learnt about respecting others and most of all ourselves. We learnt about how if we wanted to we could push ourselves further and further. If I got 50% correct in one test, I received 2 strokes of the cane. This helped to motivate me to do better the next time. Of course I would do it for myself, but it also became a challenge to make sure I gave no reason for anybody to punish me. I've learnt that if you're really good in something, nobody can take it from you. Don't be a borderline case if you can be a confirmed one.

Some people dangle carrots and you may have read about how it could be wrong to reward etc etc. Others criticised punishment.

You go for what best suits your philosophy of life. I don't make no judgements about what's better, what do I know?
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Postby ksl » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 1:50 am

durain wrote:ahem...

remember Michael P. Fay? dont do the crime if you cant take the cane. :P


Exactly god knows how many times i have had the cane for fighting in school, problem is one doesn't have a chance, one is caned for fighting like it or not...or beaten up and robbed.

The only thing i can say is many kids have had a privileged life in comparison, so sometimes we don't have a choice but to break the rules and fight. crikey I can recall boys of 14 maybe 6ft or more picking on people like me, who was probably under 5 2ft at that time.

My only defence was my boxing, which i had been doing for about 6 years at that time. So even though we know the difference of right & wrong, one cannot win you either get robbed of fight.

I believe in my neighbourhood of council estates, gangs were the norm, and if you was weak, you had a most fearful day in front of you. Most kids deny that bullying exist to their parents, but i have seen and stopped many in my time at school and was well aware that 6 estate schools were no different, and i can tell you now, in the gardening classes, I have even seen kids battered in the head with shovels and teachers getting head butted.

So god know's how lucky some kids are, to be privileged to avoid it. One does have a choice to avoid peer pressure, and the cost is friendship, that's why i have been a loner all my life and will admit to difficulty working with arsholes, that think they are better than anyone else.

Respect is mutual or there is none! Kids do get under extreme pressure and i think believe the cane is an alternative, to think about the consequences.

Lets not forget, that the person doing the caning is also effected emotionally too. As for Michael Fay, he deserved the full 6! and to think he probably got off lightly, if the owner of one of the cars was a mad wielding machette gangster, he may have been hacked to mince meat. :-

It would definately be a hospital visit if caught in the UK, by some of the owners

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Postby Plavt » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 2:07 am

Petales Soufflez! wrote:I will always remember the respect that she has instilled in us for discipline.


If I got 50% correct in one test, I received 2 strokes of the cane. This helped to motivate me to do better the next time. Of course I would do it for myself, but it also became a challenge to make sure I gave no reason for anybody to punish me.


This is total BS! Caning instills fear not discipline, that should be obvious. :roll:

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Postby Petales Soufflez! » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 2:49 am

There was no fear in my case. Because it wasn't unreasonable punishment, we knew what we were in for and why we were punished. More than anything, it served as a reminder for what we had to do and should have done.

Discipline is about instruction, learning to adhere to a certain order. It can be done with or without coersion. In my case, it was like I said, adhering to a contract we had agreed to at the beginning of our school year. And with almost everything, you have rewards and punishment when you succeed or break your contract.

Wiki has an interesting definition of the word http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline

I do not usually follow linear reasonings in my life, prefering to take the more holistic approach. It has served me well. To each his own.
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Postby ksl » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 4:04 am

I get the impression that very many people reel back with shock and horror, about caning and they imagine kids being thrashed to the bone, I find it quite hilarious, that some people can be so irrational in their thoughts. and imagine the worst, the victorian days. yet many never bat an eyelid of what the government gets up to, or worse steal the children from their parents on evidence of raving lunatic professors employed by government.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ution.html

The UK as got to be one of the most feared systems in the world, where, women and children can just disappear, and soldiers can be poisoned, to benefit the rest of the Country, talk about 3rd world Countries, they are a damn site safer than falling into the wrong hands in the UK protective system. Where kids are molested, raped and murdered Charles Dickens era lives on.

The screws are bent, the prison warders are bent, everything is bent in Britian, only the majority have yet, to find that out in a police state, that prides itself on the ancient days of has beens.

Of course I'm sure some people do go over the top, and they deserve to be prosecuted but in general I would tell them to mind there own business, I'm sure that kids today are spoilt little brats, and parents beat the living shit out of them out of pure frustration, simply because of interference of others, that have never had children.

Almost every beating I have had from my parents, i have deserved, my mother who was only 4ft 11, used to say, "I'll not hurt my bloody hands on you, you'll get this poker across your legs, god bless her" It's all about how much effort you put into the beating, and in school there was plenty of whacko teachers, so you took your chance. Of course there is a little fear, otherwise what's the point of punishment.

The art of caning
http://www.aswgt.com/content-canes&caning.html

Personally i don't give a toss about the law in UK or Europe, especially when the law fails to punish, and actually rewards offenders.

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Postby road.not.taken » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 4:39 am

Hitting children is wrong. Justifying it with lofty goals of instilling respect, or getting their attention is also wrong.

KSL, maybe people are 'reeling back' at your cavalier and callous attitude? I know I am. Hilarity aside, your rants are often verbose and sometimes disturbing. :roll:

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Postby ksl » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 4:47 am

Plavt wrote:
Petales Soufflez! wrote:I will always remember the respect that she has instilled in us for discipline.


If I got 50% correct in one test, I received 2 strokes of the cane. This helped to motivate me to do better the next time. Of course I would do it for myself, but it also became a challenge to make sure I gave no reason for anybody to punish me.


This is total BS! Caning instills fear not discipline, that should be obvious. :roll:
Sorry plavt, but you are correct, it is the fear instilled, that disciplines.....it may all appear barbaric to many, but in general it works....and the proof is in the pudding.

If you look at the so called beasting, then maybe I can understand the worries, but beasting is a punishment for adult men and you may well find it humiliating who wouldn't, it's a punishment, to remind you where you are, and what you are required to understand, that discipline is not for little puss in boots, lives are at stake. and lets face it, everyone of them are adults, why don't they just refuse to do it? The UK is a nation of psychopaths and we breed more every day. the lack of discipline is crystal clear, ever since the cane was abolished.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7471767.stm

There is always a way to avoid the punishment, don't do the crime, although that's not me, I love breaking the rules, if it's really worth it. Although that was also one reason why I never joined the infantry too, the discipline was to a point of brainwashing and it possibly does matter on the front line. I do also appreaciate your opinion about the cane and others. But since the abolishment, there is no fear at all in the UK, in fact parents fear their children, because of prosecution.

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Postby ksl » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 4:58 am

road.not.taken wrote:Hitting children is wrong. Justifying it with lofty goals of instilling respect, or getting their attention is also wrong.

KSL, maybe people are 'reeling back' at your cavalier and callous attitude? I know I am. Hilarity aside, your rants are often verbose and sometimes disturbing. :roll:
Good :lol: That's short and sweet. Don't read them if you cannot sleep at night :wink: That's from an experienced mother by the way, who is disturbed of the thought of her child growing up. take deep breaths dear the shock will rescind, your in a virtual world just now, try pulling the plug out.

It's really amazing how people can judge others without actually knowing them, maybe pop a pill to slow the brain down, if your imagination is running away with you. The fear of discipline can have this effect on people. :lol:

I just asked my wife if she thought i had a callous attitude, she say's no, I'm just a raving lunatic, I can accept that better, than being callous. I'm quite amazed at women, that have to have the last say, even though they are not interested and even bored, with the verbose long winded replies, they just can't help themselves.

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Postby road.not.taken » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 5:53 am

ksl wrote:
road.not.taken wrote:Hitting children is wrong. Justifying it with lofty goals of instilling respect, or getting their attention is also wrong.

KSL, maybe people are 'reeling back' at your cavalier and callous attitude? I know I am. Hilarity aside, your rants are often verbose and sometimes disturbing. :roll:
Good :lol: That's short and sweet. Don't read them if you cannot sleep at night :wink: That's from an experienced mother by the way, who is disturbed of the thought of her child growing up. take deep breaths dear the shock will rescind, your in a virtual world just now, try pulling the plug out.

It's really amazing how people can judge others without actually knowing them, maybe pop a pill to slow the brain down, if your imagination is running away with you. The fear of discipline can have this effect on people. :lol:

I just asked my wife if she thought i had a callous attitude, she say's no, I'm just a raving lunatic, I can accept that better, than being callous. I'm quite amazed at women, that have to have the last say, even though they are not interested and even bored, with the verbose long winded replies, they just can't help themselves.


Good Lord, what are you on about now? :roll: Honestly KSL, I'm against the physical punishment of children. You're the one getting testy. You opened up the can of worms, so why run-on with gender bias and misconceptions when someone disagrees?

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Postby Plavt » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 8:18 am

ksl wrote: Sorry plavt, but you are correct, it is the fear instilled, that disciplines.....it may all appear barbaric to many, but in general it works....and the proof is in the pudding.


That really is rubbish ksl! Fear does not instill discipline, it merely serves to stifle a child's personality. I agree with road.not.taken; hitting a child achieves nothing. Canes, slippers or whatever are 'weapons' and a sign of gross weakness on the part of the parents who use them, but maybe they shouldn't have had children to start with. The abolition of the cane has little to do with it, that is more likely the inferior nature of today's parents along with the governments perpetual meddling with the economy. I don't know what you are getting at when you quote 'beasting' in the army but I would like to remind you three soldiers died as a result. You also seem to have forgotten about Curtlees reform school in which teachers were prosecuted for physical damage inflicted on children. Now before you say those kids were little s***** who deserved it, consider what sort of backgrounds they may or may not have come from.

As for the site you mentioned in your initial post, I have read that in some depth and the memoirs of a former Hong Kong prison officer who used to meet out such punishment and was only too glad to retire. However, judicial caning is a different issue to corporal punishment in school which I saw abused too many times in my childhood. Bringing it back would achieve nothing (ref to UK). Sorry ksl I think you are living in the past.

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Postby banana » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 8:36 am

Playing devil's advocate here, is fear in and of itself a bad thing? I would rather my child learn about fear at home than on the streets. People with no concept of fear usually do not know compassion either. To me, fear is something to be learnt and overcome, not eradicated.

Spare the rod and spoil the child, as they say. Some schools of thought believe that until a child develops a personality, corporal punishment is the most effective way to get through. Much like with animals.

That said, a cane is a weapon intended to maximise pain with minimal effort. It can be very easy to go overboard. I have been caned as a youth, even beaten with broomsticks and even though I can appreciate why my parents did so, it does not mean it's right. Especially in today's context when we are supposed to be more enlightened.

My stand on this is that it's ok to inflict physical pain as punishment but only as much as the parent is in control of his/her emotional state and sharing the same pain (ie; spanking with hands, etc).

With adults, on the other hand, caning is an archaic punishment that needs to be more judiciously applied. Crimes that have caused massive physical damage to another, for example. Rape, reckless driving leading to serious injury, assault with deadly weapons, etc. Caning for smuggling cigarettes is ridiculous.

ksl wrote:It's really amazing how people can judge others without actually knowing them, maybe pop a pill to slow the brain down, if your imagination is running away with you.


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