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National Service Deferment Procedure in Singapore.

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JktMom
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Re: Bond et al

Postby JktMom » Tue, 24 Aug 2010 1:03 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
JktMom wrote:Indonesian authorities have confirmed that as an Indonesian citizen, he is prohibited from serving in the military of a foreign country including SG. But as a S'porean by birth, he is also bound by the Enlistment Act. The problem is: How to resolve the conflict of laws? My son is willing to serve NS, but he intends to keep his Indonesian citizenship & live / work in Indonesia in the future, and we don't want to run the risk of the Indonesian govt revoking his Ind'sian citizenship any time in the future, thus rendering him stateless.


JktMom

Hi MS, firstly, thank you for your time in providing your comments - much appreciated. My comments in blue below.

For all intent and purpose as you have probably known about this before we proceed is the NS Enlistment Act Chap 93 and Section 33 of the same act and SG Constitution Chap 126. Whilst aware of the Enlistment Act, I did not strictly keep tabs on when the EP was expiring - thought (naively, as it turns out) that a) some kind of reminder system via letter or email would be in place to prompt renewal; b) it's a formality that is easily resolved by re-applying online.

1. The issue right here is you did not went back when your son EP expire and he has being living overseas without a valid EP which is an offense of the above act. Had you went back to resolve this when he was 15, you will not have a major issue on hand. CMPB treats "minor" as a child with no direct decision making on their predicament. It is the parents that will be taken to task.Parent may be fine up tp $3K. A child staying overseas without valid EP will be fine up to $10K. Base on previous record, a fine of $3K for the child and parents give a warning Yes, I will have to pay for my 'major offense' of letting the EP expire! :lol: Actually I only realized this when CMPB brought it up in June '10, so now we are trying to request that the fine be paid in absentia as my son is in the midst of an academic term.
2. Call CMPB prior to arrival to SG so that you do not have a major drama at the airport. See pt. 3 below
3. Go to CMPB with child and report for the offense that has been committed. A fine will be in order. A jail time is not on the card as he has not even reach enlistment age of 18. Read in other threads of the risk of sequestration sans parent, interrogation with loaded questions, etc. Are these rumors true? If so, might I have a valid reason to worry about the trauma this may inflict on my son?
4. Make sure you bring along all the proof and comms for this whole episode. Supporting document of schooling overseas etc. See pt. 3 above
5. Now for the declaring of having Indonesian Citizenship is something I would not want to declare with CMPB. [color=blue]Already done - full facts were disclosed to my MP when she wrote to Mindef on our behalf - thought it best to be upfront about the predicament we are in. As you stated you would want your son to serve NS, best leave it as it is for the moment. Actually, what I said is we are willing for our son to serve NS only if if doesn't jeopardize his Ind'sian citizenship in any way. I know it is perjury but given the complex nature between Indo and SG , I will explain in detail later. I am aware of the diplomatic 'tensions' between Singapore & Indonesia - they are referred to often enough in Indonesia If you have informed them, then they will know that you still require your son to serve NS and either renounce SG citizenship or Indonesian citizenship when he comes to the age of 21. Taking the oath of allegiance in SG at 21/22 age will require him to show proof of relinquishing his Indo Citizenship[/color] My son has decided he would like to keep his Indonesian citizenship; but is my understanding correct that serving NS is a prerequisite for renouncing his Singapore citizenship?
6. Once you have all this sorted with CMPB apply for EP for him to complete his studies up to college. Tertiary education deferment is not allowed under NS act. WIP
7. Either by posing $75K bond or two sureties , one a living relative in SG and the other yourself for him to stay overseas to complete his studies. Expect to be dealing with this upon CMPB demand; will inquire with banks procedure & related costs. The bond issue was already brought up before his 1st EP was granted; but then they let us apply online & the matter was postponed.
8. CMPB and Mindef cannot deny a pre enlistee to complete his formal education be it locally or overseas even until the age of 22 as long as he does not continue with tertiary education after that under the Education Act

Now, with Kasus Kewarganagaraan Indonesia and Formulir Immgrasi Terbatas Issue.
1. First of all, it is not what it seems when Wirajudo or any Ministers spoke something to the Koran.
2. There are many here including myself who still holds Indon PP even though we serve SG Army. For my case, I was a little boy when we arrive in SG. We travel with Indo PP but did not renew it. When comes to the age of 12, I was offered SG Pink IC but we need to serve NS. My Dad renounced Indonesia PP for all of us when I turned 18 then, Knowing full well that our Indonesia Citizenship can be attained at a later date as we are all Anak Bumi Indonesia as Suharto allows us to do this due to the treaty signed by the 2 Gahmen but Suharto made a side door for those who wish to reapply and there was a statement to that effect then. I do not have with me as it was years ago never thought of keeping it. I served the SG army , made a career there. When I turned 35 , I applied to my Indonesia Citizenship thru Immigration Lawyer in Medan and got it back.Well you pay quite abit about $15K which is alot but all are legit. Lucky you that you managed to find ways to sort out your matters. :)
3. So you have several choices
a) Serve SG NS, do not let Indonesian Gahmen find out your son serving NS which is NOT a major issue at all. Many did it w/o any drama Actually, in Feb '08, an article appeared in the papers about the Ind'sian Foreign Minister making a request to the Singapore Govt to exempt Ind'sian citizens from serving NS as doing so would be a basis for the Indonesian Govt to revoke the citizenship of such Ind'sians (see http://blog.simplyjean.com/2008/02/22/i ... gapore-pr/ - I couldn't find the original article in the ST archives, but this blog sets it out, and the following comments are quite interesting!) So fact is, the Ind'sian Govt is well-aware of the issue & has gone so far as to make a formal request to the Singapore Govt, denial notwithstanding.
OR
b) Go by the book serve NS and renounce Indonesia Citizenship or wait for them to inform you that your son has lost his Indonesian Citizenship which I bet you it will take awhile unless your hubby is someone important and they will come after your family , which will be almost the same as above. Get an immigration lawyer in Indonesia to check on reapplication to that effect. The difference between your son and me is I am Indonesian by birth where else your son is NOT As mentioned, this is not an option as my son wishes to keep his Indonesian citizenship and safeguard all entitlements flowing therefrom (re. holding of property, company directorships, etc.)
OR
c) Renounce SG citizenship after serving NS and he will be allowed to return to SG for work. PR remote. SG Citizenship impossible My son is willing to do this, but for the fact that Indonesian Law clearly prohibits him from serving NS and thus legally renouncing his SG citizenship (if it is correct that serving NS is a prerequisite for renunciation)

On the issue of contradicting law between countries, do not view it as an issue. As long as you do not make a big ruckus out of it with Indon Gahmen, your son will not lose his Indon Citizenship. I think this is debatable. In view of the fact that the Ind'sian Govt is already fully aware of the issue as mentioned above, and the uneasy alliance between the countries, it would be hard to say with an absolute certainty that the law will not be invoked in the future, whether by the Govt to make a political point or by business enemies, etc. By law he has three years after 18 to decide which citizenship he wants to hold. By then he already serve SG NS He has already decided to keep his Ind'sian citizenship, now the issue is how to renounce his Singapore citizenship legally without breaking Ind'sian law in the process, by serving NS

Formulir Immigrasi Terbatas
1. This is the best as you do not need to apply for Indonesia PP and just have a stamp "right of entry" so that he can stay in Indonesia and work without much worries.
I cite you several countries that knowingly provide dual citizenship although in the eyes is illegal. Malaysian and Thailand.: those that live at the border between Kelantan and Patani or Golok have two IC. A leeway for the Muslim living in Thai.
2. Timor Leste b4 becoming republik: these people has Portugese and Indonesia Citizenship
3. Taiwan and SG

The above countries requires their son to serve military in thier own countries. Yes, it contradict each other.
SO do not rock the boat on Indonesia side and solve SG issue first is the way to go. Again, the Ind'sian Govt is already fully aware of the issue and they have the right to revoke the citizenship of every Indonesian that has served NS; when and if they ever do so is another matter, the point is the right exists.
Anyway there are many ways to solve issue in Indonesia . Going by the book is not the right choice. Again, debatable. Whilst it is the popular belief that many solutions can be 'bought' in Indonesia, what is unknown is how much it would cost when one is faced with the threat of being rendered stateless. US$1mil? $2mil? Hard to quantify, no?
Hope this helps
Good Luck


I think every family will have different shades coloring their particular picture, depending on their unique perspective as to where their future lies. Ultimately, my son has to decide, and my role is to help & support him in making an informed decision. I am now just preparing to face the full force of Singapore law if his ultimate decision results in the inevitable unenviable consequences, and wondering if there might be any legal avenue to plead clemency. So if you can recommend any lawyers (all the ones I know are in different fields of expertise)...Thanks in advance! :) [Will be away for the next several hours - my son is receiving an academic achievement award at school today which we have been invited to attend - a bright spot in the midst of all this stress!)

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NS issues

Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 24 Aug 2010 6:46 pm

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Re: NS issues

Postby JktMom » Tue, 24 Aug 2010 9:49 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
JktMom wrote:Whilst aware of the Enlistment Act, I did not strictly keep tabs on when the EP was expiring - thought (naively, as it turns out) that a) some kind of reminder system via letter or email would be in place to prompt renewal; b) it's a formality that is easily resolved by re-applying online.

This are the things that you need to closely monitor if you wish to go down this path. Fortunately you did apply for an EP for him

Yes, it was my oversight & we'll just have to pay the price.


Yes, I will have to pay for my 'major offense' of letting the EP expire! :lol: Actually I only realized this when CMPB brought it up in June '10, so now we are trying to request that the fine be paid in absentia as my son is in the midst of an academic term.
Read in other threads of the risk of sequestration sans parent, interrogation with loaded questions, etc. Are these rumors true? If so, might I have a valid reason to worry about the trauma this may inflict on my son?

That will never be accepted by CMPB and Mindef. The longer you delay, the heavier the fine is.
Not true on your case. Those that received interrogation are those that leaves for overseas w/o applying EP and ignore those NS letters . You have gotten an EP b4. Now it is past its validity. You need to return to sort this.From my experience it will not be a major issue
Many got caught because of their own ignorance and stubborn by not following the law to the T


No harm trying. He cannot leave until a break in the academic term anyway. Good to know it's not a major trauma to return to sort out, will make arrangements to do so once we get word from CMPB. Luckily there's a cap to the fine.

Already done - full facts were disclosed to my MP when she wrote to Mindef on our behalf - thought it best to be upfront about the predicament we are in.

IMHO, MP and lawyers can take your money or write on behalf of you and fight your case but end up losing it or will not do any good at all. This is a watertight act. Bring all your docs to see CMPB and explain it there will be what I will be incline to do

Luckily no monies paid to date. I have explained to CMPB/Mindef the situation ad nauseum, but they always come back with the same reply, i.e. must serve NS (the words / people-in-charge are almost identical to those as quoted elsewhere in this thread!).

Actually, what I said is we are willing for our son to serve NS only if if doesn't jeopardize his Ind'sian citizenship in any way. I am aware of the diplomatic 'tensions' between Singapore & Indonesia - they are referred to often enough in Indonesia My son has decided he would like to keep his Indonesian citizenship; but is my understanding correct that serving NS is a prerequisite for renouncing his Singapore citizenship?

As long as he does not sort the EP issue, you cannot go forward. Sort this out first then apply for EP again. After that state intention to renounce SG citizenship. They will send you a doc "Application for deferment till 21 pending renounciation" This doc will be send to you thru Mindef. They will decide whether to accept or not. If they accepted your request, your son does NOT need to serve NS. If not then he has to return to complete his NS then renounce.

Yes, intend to do so. I applied for a deferment of NS till 21yo pending renunciation since my son was 13, it has been steadfastly denied on the basis that he has "received the benefits", etc. This I cannot contest (already gone too far in terms of obtaining PP, IC, etc). Even if they grant deferment to 21yo, serving NS is a prerequisite for renunciation (see http://www.guidemesingapore.com/singapo ... enship.htm under 'Eligibility Criteria ...for a male citizen), so NS has to be served whether he wants to retain or renounce SG citizenship.

Expect to be dealing with this upon CMPB demand; will inquire with banks procedure & related costs. The bond issue was already brought up before his 1st EP was granted; but then they let us apply online & the matter was postponed.
Actually, in Feb '08, an article appeared in the papers about the Ind'sian Foreign Minister making a request to the Singapore Govt to exempt Ind'sian citizens from serving NS as doing so would be a basis for the Indonesian Govt to revoke the citizenship of such Ind'sians (see http://blog.simplyjean.com/2008/02/22/i ... gapore-pr/ - I couldn't find the original article in the ST archives, but this blog sets it out, and the following comments are quite interesting!) So fact is, the Ind'sian Govt is well-aware of the issue & has gone so far as to make a formal request to the Singapore Govt, denial notwithstanding.
As mentioned, this is not an option as my son wishes to keep his Indonesian citizenship and safeguard all entitlements flowing therefrom (re. holding of property, company directorships, etc.)
My son is willing to do this, but for the fact that Indonesian Law clearly prohibits him from serving NS and thus legally renouncing his SG citizenship (if it is correct that serving NS is a prerequisite for renunciation)

I think this is debatable. In view of the fact that the Ind'sian Govt is already fully aware of the issue as mentioned above, and the uneasy alliance between the countries, it would be hard to say with an absolute certainty that the law will not be invoked in the future, whether by the Govt to make a political point or by business enemies, etc. He has already decided to keep his Ind'sian citizenship, now the issue is how to renounce his Singapore citizenship legally without breaking Ind'sian law in the process, by serving NS
Again, the Ind'sian Govt is already fully aware of the issue and they have the right to revoke the citizenship of every Indonesian that has served NS; when and if they ever do so is another matter, the point is the right exists.
Again, debatable. Whilst it is the popular belief that many solutions can be 'bought' in Indonesia, what is unknown is how much it would cost when one is faced with the threat of being rendered stateless. US$1mil? $2mil? Hard to quantify, no?
I think every family will have different shades coloring their particular picture, depending on their unique perspective as to where their future lies. Ultimately, my son has to decide, and my role is to help & support him in making an informed decision. I am now just preparing to face the full force of Singapore law if his ultimate decision results in the inevitable unenviable consequences, and wondering if there might be any legal avenue to plead clemency. So if you can recommend any lawyers (all the ones I know are in different fields of expertise)...Thanks in advance! :) [Will be away for the next several hours - my son is receiving an academic achievement award at school today which we have been invited to attend - a bright spot in the midst of all this stress!)


First of all congrats to your son academic achievement. [color=darkblue]Thank you! :) I have helped numerous families over four forum board that I lost count who is who. Their background ranges from Ozzie, Yanks, Swedish, Dutch, Pomps, Kiwis, you name it . Those that I managed to help, did it and managed to navigate this minefield easily. Those that were left in the lurch due to their ignorance or otherwise or whatever reasons, I gave them choices to make it less painful. So....... I am going to tell you a very simple advise. You are making it very stressful for yourself by confusing all the legalities which can be a non issue at the end of the day.Hell I have two boys and we did it without any major dramas. I have gone thru it and back
1. If you want your son to retain Indonesia PP then forget about SG . To hell with CMPB , MINDEF whatever. Do not come back at all. You can never and will not win any sympathy from Gahmen here. That you can bet on my name itself. During my time in the military I never come across anyone trying to wriggle from this and get away with it.I have seen more than you can ever believed.
The only way is get out and stay out not even transit So I have gathered!
2. If you want still want to negotiate, those advise is the best route to follow.
3. On the issue of legalities between two countries, I do not want to spill my gut here. I run my own company in SG and Indonesia. I have 7 branches spread in Europe and Asia.
Take for example PMA i.e Pernanaman Modal Asing and BKPM whereby foreigners are not allowed to do any business that is detrimental to Indonesian culture, religion and its people which is basically almost all business cannot be done in Indon and yet we managed to get PMA license in legit way although Suharto signed a decree to protect Indon interest. For 5 mill rups you can get Kasus Warganegara and it is legit.
If you start muddying yourself with those laws which you have no control, you can never continue living in Indon.

Yep, that's why we have to give weight to observing the laws (which naturally we have no control of) here, so that my son can live in peace in Indonesia, at least! :)

AS I said those transcripts are not what it is meant to be.
If you still want to discuss this, reply and I will advise. If not , good luck as I have given you the best advise, it is up to you to decide. YOu just have to open up your mind and read between the lines to understand what I mean[/color]


MS, I know you have been helpful to many people in this forum, and some of them could be helped (e.g., their sons are still v.young, they are not in breach of any home-country laws by serving NS, etc). My son's case is not so straightforward - although many people are in the same situation, we rarely hear 1st-hand experiences from the people who decided against serving NS for whatever reason. I guess it's hard to take the legal training out of a lawyer - we tend to look at the law based on absolute terms. This conflict issue is an interesting one to me from a legal perspective, but not so much if it concerns my son's citizenship! In no way do I mean to 'ignore' your advice, I am also just sharing my perspective, findings and experience, and making sure I cover my bases in doing all that I can to help my son make an informed decision eventually. Hopefully, I will learn new things in this forum from people who are going through a similar experience, so your comments are all, I assure you, taken with an open mind - keep 'em coming! As mentioned previously, it is all much appreciated! :)

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:16 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
InAust wrote:Hi MS,

I had read thru the thread...but had somehow missed this part of passport renewal info...very sorry about that. I was assuming I should renew the passport before my son turns 11 for(will turn 11 next Mar) and wanted to quickly apply before next year hits. His current passport will expire in Mar 2011. Now it seems it is my wrong move....Silly me!. What do you think I should do now??. I have not collected it as yet....Immi has sent me an email saying it is ready for collection. I am panicking now!.

Regards
InAust


I edit this after I found your post
Hey mate, do not sorry me. Shit happens
InAust

I have read my earlier advise to you on this same thread . Your son has not got an OZ citizenship only PR. My bad...

Go and collect your son PP as he is below 11. It does not hurt at all. He will get a 5 year passport BUT only on 2 yrs validity, It depends on ICA
This is not a major as long as you follow the protocol.


MS,

Things have changed since you left. My son's passport was the old style passport and it was originally a two year one, but when the following came about, it was extended to it's full life of 10 years. Now all are given full 5 years Biometric Passports. The cost of producing them was one of the reasons for doing away with the 2yr passports for NS eligible males.

Exit Controls

From RECORD I, the passport validity of NSmen was extended from two years to a full 10 years with effect from November 1992.

RECORD III recommended further relaxation of exit control measures. These included:

a) Extension of Passport Validity - With effect from 1 May 2001, the passport validity for NS-liable males and full-time national servicemen (NSFs) were extended.

b) Exit Permit (EP) Requirements - With effect from 1 May 2001, EP regulations for NS-liable males were relaxed and a standardised multiple-trip EP was introduced. An electronic EP system was launched on 1 Jan 2002.

c) Waiver of Monetary Bond - With effect from 1 May 2001, NS-liable males who accompany their parents on overseas employment need only to be bonded by deed.


And from the Ministry of Home Affairs....

http://app.mfa.gov.sg/pr/read_script.asp?View,139,

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 2:40 am

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Bond et al

Postby JktMom » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:57 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
JktMom wrote:MS, I know you have been helpful to many people in this forum, and some of them could be helped (e.g., their sons are still v.young, they are not in breach of any home-country laws by serving NS, etc). My son's case is not so straightforward - although many people are in the same situation, we rarely hear 1st-hand experiences from the people who decided against serving NS for whatever reason. I guess it's hard to take the legal training out of a lawyer - we tend to look at the law based on absolute terms. This conflict issue is an interesting one to me from a legal perspective, but not so much if it concerns my son's citizenship! In no way do I mean to 'ignore' your advice, I am also just sharing my perspective, findings and experience, and making sure I cover my bases in doing all that I can to help my son make an informed decision eventually. Hopefully, I will learn new things in this forum from people who are going through a similar experience, so your comments are all, I assure you, taken with an open mind - keep 'em coming! As mentioned previously, it is all much appreciated! :)


MS, thanks for sharing. Some questions / comments in blue (please PM me if you prefer to keep the info private):

JktMom, I wish I could meet you in person but I can't as I am on assignment now. For the sake of this discussion , allow me to go further.
Most parents with young children will NOT have this problem. The issue will only start to evolve or turn into an ugly head around 13 years of age if they do not follow the protocol. My eldest son prior to him getting his deferment were of somewhat related issue. We did NOT apply for EP since we left just before he was 11 then. We even came back two years later to extend his SG PP which was valid for 10 years but ICA decides to restrict it to 2 yrs. B4 he turn 16, I even went to CMPB to apply for EP for him which was denied as they cannot capture his BC no. They can only capture those from 16 and above then. When we return to SG for his EP we went to CMPB to get his permit, yes I was interviewed blah blah but we showed proof of studies, usual address in overseas, the whole shebang, we got two years till 17 on line which was unusual as I was expecting only One Year. (As I am preparing to face CMPB re. the expired EP) Were you interviewed alone or together with your son, or was your son interviewed alone? What sort of questions did they ask? Anyway, at the turn of 16 and a half, we managed to get foreign citizenship and coincidentally he needs to register for NS.pre enlistment . By 'we' do you mean your whole family got foreign citizenship and did your son in fact register for NS pre-enlistment at 16.5yo?
There on, it was roller coaster for the whole family as my second son was about 14 too.I wrote to ICA, and CMPB proof of foreign citizenship with all the docs. Took quite awhile and the correspondence and request sometimes beyond me BUT MINDEF approved their deferment till 21 and they renounced at 21 . As mentioned, Mindef has repeatedly and conclusively denied NS deferment till 21yo pending renunciation of SG citizenship for my son. To quote their email of today, "As a Singapore citizen, ... is required to fulfil his NS obligations before the request to renounce his Singapore citizenship can be considered." In other words, they may not even allow him to renounce his SG citizenship legally if he doesn't serve NS. I read in an earlier post in this thread that Mindef might grant the deferment if both parents are no longer SG citizens / PR & idly wondered if they would reconsider the deferment if we were somehow able to renounce my SG citizenship / my husband's PR before my son turned 18 (although this seems a rather drastic course of action). If futile (no hope of reconsideration for deferment), we will keep things status quo & not even try Both my sons are in tertiary in US and UK. Congratulations! I hope they are doing well :)
While I respect your decision to allow your son to decide for his life but from my POV when he is at 16, he would not understand much. There are too much that he is grappling with at his age. Girls, friends, hobbies etc.This life choice decision will not have much impact on him now. The effect be it good or otherwise will be realised later in life. All you can do is to provide a well informed decision of what you are going to do for him as A FAMILY. Tell him whatever you decide as a family at that given point of time with all the obstacles stack against him, that was the best decision. Let him have his say but that does not mean you have to accept his decision as this are very difficult to predict what his best for him. He may not want to accept your decision and lives to regret it OR he accepted your decision lives to enjoy it.We are not magician gazing at the crystal ball or clairvoyance that can foretod the unknown but hey, at least you can have comfort with the fact that the whole family is around you. That is more important than any draconian or ludicrous laws of human kind in the face of this earth. Agreed, we have been discussing this issue with him since he could rationalize, and of course, the final decision will be made with everyone's agreement, with the parents' input holding appropriate weight and his realizing the consequences of the decision and aligning his life decisions accordingly if necessary. I had hoped for the deferment against all odds so that he could make the final decision together with us with more maturity, but no such luck :(.
Whether you go for it or not, no one can blame you, if you have covered all your bases. Like you have said, different family has their own predicament and issues to be resolved.No one is perfect
While we did this at the point before the piano man debacle erupted and we managed to leave unscathed. So yeah he was about 17 then. So your whole family no longer hold SG citizenship or live/own assets in Spore? I think perhaps the piano man incident served to prompt a clampdown by Mindef - they no longer allow deferments so easily, so you might have had a timing advantage. While I am an ex military man and practically knows the guidelines like my back teeth even I made some judgemental error. I navigated all those minefield way before anyone able to provide me any answers. I have met hundreds of families overseas on first hand account how they negotiate this but some never do it, some did it halfway and screw it, others talk about it and others just do not know how to begin with it.Most of them has this misconception that CMPB and the Gahmen will do all they can "till death do them apart notion" . Which in fact if you read the guideline properly and follow to the T, you can never go wrong. You can even argue to your own benefit. So my first hand account, past working experience and on top of that the number of families that I helped first hand and thru the forums has someway managed to provide avenues for families struggling with these issues. This unfortunately certainly has not proved true in my son's case, even though we have followed all the regulations / demands of Mindef / CMPB thus far. The fact that my son held a Singapore passport (he was not able to get his Ind PP until '09 as mentioned) immediately deemed him to have "enjoyed the benefits of SG citizenship" and this has been Mindef's basis for denying him deferment since '07.
I am neither for nor against NS.. My belief on this issue does not matter . What is important is to provide informations that will lead you to your decisions. Of course laws do change and we have to keep abreast with it. If I made any errors while providing this information , do forgive me as I am after all human. I hold a similar view re. NS, I'm sure it has it pros & cons. I just need to ensure I have all the information to help my son make an informed decision based on what we know at this time (you are right, no one can foretell the future). You are beyond reproach, you continue to help everyone with your experience although your sons are already 'in the clear'.
Now on the subject of Indonesian Law, as I am not a trained lawyer, my kid sister is, if you take everything from a lawyer POV, you will not be able to continue living in any part of the world.
Indonesia is somewhat funny , the laws there are meant to be seen NOT to be followed literally. You go nuts when you do that. Everything is flexible. This is true. I have lived here for 18+ years, so I know what you mean. However, we need to consider which laws impact us more personally, so whilst I'll always find ways around the formal regulations in business, etc, I would exercise more care when it came to personal / fundamental matters like citizenship. While I served SG Armed Forces in the 70s , I did not get any special treatment. Though I realise I may lose my Indon Citizenship then,my dad just do it for the sake of the family. Well, he was spot on and now I have my Indon citizenship back. Did Indon or Badan Immigrasi care even though I sometime extend my Indon PP at their Embassy in SG and declare of having SG Citizenship, They did not give a hoot. This piece of info from Indon Gahmen is just empty vessel. While SBY is definitely a better leader compare to Ibu Mega or Pak Gusdur. I feel SBY works in the same principle as Suharto as both are military men while SBY is definitely working for the people and Suharto for his families and cronies but in terms of international law no one wants to rock each other boat much. This is how Asean works . Has been and always will be. I wonder why then the matter was brought up by the Indonesian Foreign Minister in '08? From the article it looks like a formal request was made by the Ind'sian Govt to the Singapore Govt - surely this would have rocked the boat somewhat? :???:
I applied the law to the T. At that time that was best for my family and I never regret it . So does my sons as they were well informed about my decision. As mentioned, we have also applied the Singapore law judiciously, acceding to all their demands thus far; unfortunately it has not yielded the same good result for my family.
Children are flexible when they are young if you intend to uproot and will mixed with new friends. It is the parents that holds sentimental feelings of their birth place. So we tend to think that when we are old we will return back to Singapore and catch up "lost time". Let me tell you, your SG friends have moved on, they will not wait for you. By the time you came back here , you feel more like a stranger than before. As mentioned, I have lived in Indonesia for 18+ years and my son since he was 5 weeks old, so definitely the ties to Indonesia are very strong and there are no plans whatsoever to return to Singapore long-term, except for short visits to family / grandparents.
It is your family that holds very dear to you no matter where you go So true, especially for my son. The fact that his parents will probably live in Indonesia forever plays a part in his concern that his Indonesian citizenship remains inviolate. Neither my husband or I were born in Singapore, he schooled there for 5yrs before studying in the US and I grew up there until leaving for London at 18yo. So the sentimental ties to Singapore (at least as a birthplace) are somewhat diluted.
If you wish to talk in private PM me and I will go from there.

Again, you have been most generous with your time - thank you.

Good Luck

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Re: Bond et al

Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 26 Aug 2010 4:28 am

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Re: Bond et al

Postby JktMom » Thu, 26 Aug 2010 7:24 am

Mad Scientist wrote:JKTMOM ,Ok to answer your Qss. Sorry late reply , we went fishing caught a few snappers and blue cod. Damn it taste so nice!!! Haha...no worries MS, so that was what your 'assignment' was, good for you! :)

Were you interviewed alone or together with your son, or was your son interviewed alone? What sort of questions did they ask?
Nope, together at the front counter.Did not even go to interview room
Actually I am the one that asking all the questions. Very polite frontline, I spoke to the supervisor. Not sure on this rumour of separate rooms interview, probably, but I cannot justify if this is true or not. Good to know - thank you.

As mentioned, Mindef has repeatedly and conclusively denied NS deferment till 21yo pending renunciation of SG citizenship for my son. To quote their email of today, "As a Singapore citizen, ... is required to fulfil his NS obligations before the request to renounce his Singapore citizenship can be considered." In other words, they may not even allow him to renounce his SG citizenship legally if he doesn't serve NS. I read in an earlier post in this thread that Mindef might grant the deferment if both parents are no longer SG citizens / PR & idly wondered if they would reconsider the deferment if we were somehow able to renounce my SG citizenship / my husband's PR before my son turned 18 (although this seems a rather drastic course of action). If futile (no hope of reconsideration for deferment), we will keep things status quo & not even try

1. I think I can shed some light on this. Please read below in RED

This unfortunately certainly has not proved true in my son's case, even though we have followed all the regulations / demands of Mindef / CMPB thus far. The fact that my son held a Singapore passport (he was not able to get his Ind PP until '09 as mentioned) immediately deemed him to have "enjoyed the benefits of SG citizenship" and this has been Mindef's basis for denying him deferment since '07.
Same as above

I wonder why then the matter was brought up by the Indonesian Foreign Minister in '08? From the article it looks like a formal request was made by the Ind'sian Govt to the Singapore Govt - surely this would have rocked the boat somewhat? :???:

Ah.... I am "in charge" I need to be seen as "taking charge" Only to be flat out denied / ignored by the SG Govt - don't think the objective was served!

As mentioned, I have lived in Indonesia for 18+ years and my son since he was 5 weeks old, so definitely the ties to Indonesia are very strong and there are no plans whatsoever to return to Singapore long-term, except for short visits to family / grandparents.
So true, especially for my son. The fact that his parents will probably live in Indonesia forever plays a part in his concern that his Indonesian citizenship remains inviolate. Neither my husband or I were born in Singapore, he schooled there for 5yrs before studying in the US and I grew up there until leaving for London at 18yo. So the sentimental ties to Singapore (at least as a birthplace) are somewhat diluted.

Correct me what I understand
1. You and hubby are SG PR ?
I'm S'porean; Hubby is Singapore PR
2. Son born in SG and registered as Sg BC so a Sger not SPR but left for Indon since 5 yrs? Yes, son SG BC; left SG @5 weeks
3. Both hubby and yourself have SG PR till now or not? Yes, I'm still SG & hubby still PR (although he never renews), but both willing to renounce if it would help our son get deferment & can renounce without serving NS
4. Have travel on short visit since 13 to 15 with SGPP? Yes
5. Stop using it right after getting Indon BC and Indon PP at 07? Got Ind'sian citizenship in '06, Ind'sian PP in '09; stopped using SG PP henceforth
6. Still return to SG for visit using Indon PP till now? Yes, from Jun'09 onwards
7. Applied EP when 13 for 2 yrs but denied deferment till 21 by CMPB and Mindef hence required to serve NS? Yes
8. No longer has EP ? Has expired since June 2010 ? EP expired Nov'09; been trying to get renewal since I realized in Jun'10, but they are asking for his physical presence, want him to go back to 'resolve his EP offences'. Waiting for 3rd denial to pay in absentia, then will make arrangements to go back once he has a break in his school term.

I know where you went wrong if you can reply to this[/color]
Thank you!

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Re: Bond et al

Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 26 Aug 2010 9:02 am

:-# :-#
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Re: Bond et al

Postby JktMom » Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:32 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
JktMom wrote:Correct me what I understand
1. You and hubby are SG PR ?
I'm S'porean; Hubby is Singapore PR
2. Son born in SG and registered as Sg BC so a Sger not SPR but left for Indon since 5 yrs? Yes, son SG BC; left SG @5 weeks
3. Both hubby and yourself have SG PR till now or not? Yes, I'm still SG & hubby still PR (although he never renews), but both willing to renounce if it would help our son get deferment & can renounce without serving NS
4. Have travel on short visit since 13 to 15 with SGPP? Yes
5. Stop using it right after getting Indon BC and Indon PP at 07? Got Ind'sian citizenship in '06, Ind'sian PP in '09; stopped using SG PP henceforth
6. Still return to SG for visit using Indon PP till now? Yes, from Jun'09 onwards
7. Applied EP when 13 for 2 yrs but denied deferment till 21 by CMPB and Mindef hence required to serve NS? Yes
8. No longer has EP ? Has expired since June 2010 ? EP expired Nov'09; been trying to get renewal since I realized in Jun'10, but they are asking for his physical presence, want him to go back to 'resolve his EP offences'. Waiting for 3rd denial to pay in absentia, then will make arrangements to go back once he has a break in his school term.

I know where you went wrong if you can reply to this[/color]
Thank you!


No, I was on company set up and had a break , so we went fishing. Glad you had a nice time! :)
1. Under the guideline and if you look at at Mindef news release 2006 Feb/ March by Teo Chee Hean and MHA news release about the same, time by Dr Ng Ee Heng, one of the issues is enjoying socio economic benefits. From my numerous observation and understanding are schooling after 13 in SG, collection Pink IC, and using SG PP after 13 years old. No longer in contention, he is deemed to have enjoyed the socio economic benefits simply by holding a SG passport; ICA confirmed this to me in a phone call when my son was 10yo.
2. Now I know you had EP when he was 13, but you fail to renew it which is one offence. As indicated previously, we live in Indonesia pretty much 350 days a year, so the EP was a formality we complied with when my son was 13yo, but did not keep tabs on expiry, thinking we would get some kind of a reminder via letter or email. Did not think Mindef would use it as a 'trap' for unsuspecting people who are far removed from the Singapore rules! :roll: On top of that you use the SG PP to travel and have short visits here . Yes, until he got his Ind'sian PP in Jun'09. These are seen enjoying SG socio benefits. Basically it is a trap door with quick release. Not in contention, per above You fail to renew and everything falls on top of you. Had you return earlier, it will not cause any major. plead ignorance and the fine will be a slap on the wrist. Per above. Had we known, we definitely would have started action to resolve earlier. Currently in negotiations with Enforcement Agent to settle - come to Singapore, pay fine, whatever they are demanding.
3. Now this has dragged on for six months now. I envisage you will not be punished severely based on past pre enlistees that I have helped. I could be wrong here. This is the main obstacle I think it'll be ok, because they know we only realized it in Jun '10 & have been trying to resolve the matter since. So long as we are in contact with CMPB & comply with their demands, hopefully they won't treat us too harshly.
4. Your hubby PR if he has not renew till now, his REP will be invalid . He can still return for social visit but his PR is no longer valid due to REP expired. Not much of an impact on hubby as he also only makes short visits to Singapore; thus his willingness to renounce unless it causes a big headache in other areas (e.g. re. property held, etc)
5. Did your son visited SG after 09 on Indon PP after the EP expired? Yes
6. Now you can renounce your SG as you see fits, I would be inclined to resolve this NS issue first, then you renounce SG Ciitzenship and hubby return PR to ICA. Then both of you can collect CPF . Do it to the T. Hubby has never worked in Singapore, so no CPF; I worked only briefly in Singapore, so CPF not a significant amount. Renunciation for me is only an urgent matter if it helps my son's NS issue, otherwise no urgency, as there are consequences (re. inheritance of landed property) to consider. So renunciation for me is inextricably tied to the NS issue.
7. However if you feel that the reply will not be favourable to you then do NOT let your son come back at all. By reply, are you referring to the granting of deferment till 21yo pending renunciation? If so, that has already been denied. IMHO you will receive the same reply.Talk to them(CMPB) prior return that your son needs to go back to complete his education and you are willing to return and face the music but you need confirmation that he can return to Indon with a renewal EP after paying the fine. OK, noted - will include in email to them. You can tell them he will definitely serve SG NS when he turns 18. I probably should not offer this as the matter is not yet set in stone, due to the conflict issue. A final decision will need to be reached by the NS registration deadline. If you go by this route, I think they will ask you to provide bond or sureties. I am inclined to go for the latter one. Noted. Just to clarify - bond would need to be posted with a bank now but the 2 sureties will just be made to pay up in the event of default, right?
Please remember you do not need to pose any bond if it less the 2 yrs i.e 1 yr 364 days. If you do it online the system will allow it. Tried to do it online but as my son would be >16.5yo for a 1yr 364d EP, the system disallowed it & there was a message to contact CMPB, which I then did.
By then you decide how you wished to proceed.
Renouncing SG will help your case in getting him deferred NS till 21. Moreover he has left SG since 5 weeks. But we need to renounce before he turns 18yo, right? Not sure how fast we can secure Ind'sian citizenship and if the deferment is not guaranteed or there is an even chance that it will still be denied, then I might opt to keep my SG citizenship due to the serious consequences previously mentioned.
Once you settle the EP , post again and I will guide you on how to complete the last lap. OK! Thanks again!
Does this help ?[/quote]

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Re: Bond et al

Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 26 Aug 2010 3:26 pm

:-# :-#
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Re: Bond et al

Postby JktMom » Thu, 26 Aug 2010 4:05 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
JktMom wrote:Noted. Just to clarify - bond would need to be posted with a bank now but the 2 sureties will just be made to pay up in the event of default, right?
There is a form for you to fill in. If you chose bond, you have to get bankers guarrantee to the name of Ministry of Defence. Make a copy and original pass to them. Make sure there is an acceptance letter on this. No one I know pose a bond as we are not sure if the money will be return or not. That does not eradicate of the compulsory NS your son has to go thru even if you chose to forgo the bond, he is still liable.
Sureties is another option as explain on earlier post

Understood. I think we can safely consider the money a 'donation' to the SG govt in the event of default, but sureties is the preferred option.

But we need to renounce before he turns 18yo, right? Not sure how fast we can secure Ind'sian citizenship and if the deferment is not guaranteed or there is an even chance that it will still be denied, then I might opt to keep my SG citizenship due to the serious consequences previously mentioned.

Yes must do the renounciation asap before 18. FYI SG renounciation takes about 6 weeks from the day ICA received your application. The last time I did for my Indon citizenship took me a year to process legit route.
You cannot even forgo your SG citizenship as ICA would want to see your foreign one b4 you are allowed to renounce

Time is not on our side, and since there is no guarantee that deferment would be granted even if we do renounce, this is an option of last resort only if we want to try to get the best result from the Singapore perspective. Otherwise, my son would need to kiss the LRD (little red dot) goodbye in every way (not even transit!) at least till he reaches 40(?), after which he can try to settle in court pleading extenuating circumstances, etc ala piano man? BTW, did your whole family give up SG citizenship/PR & do you think this is what secured your sons' deferment (i.e. is it almost guaranteed the deferment will be granted if the parents / none of the other family members are SG citizens)?

Good Luck and godspeed
Much thanks, will keep posted of progress.

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Postby PsychoJet2 » Fri, 03 Sep 2010 7:53 am

Mad Scientist - Can you shed some light onto my situation?

This is somewhat unique (maybe not) that I have not been able to find an answer to on the CMP website. I emigrated from Singapore to the US with my family at the age of 8 yrs 10 months in 1989. I returned briefly in 1994 at the age of 13 on a short family vacation. While on that short vacation in Singapore, my family obtained an IC (pink card - I now realize that was a BIG mistake) for me. After returning from that vacation, I have not returned to Singapore since (though my parents did file for NS deferment when I approached 16 yrs of age). After I finished my high school education in the US, I decided not to return to Singapore for my National Service and instead continued my education by attending an University in the US. At that time, I was also nationalized as a US citizen with US passport and sought to renounce my Singapore citizenship, which was subsequently denied. I, thus, became a National Service Defaulter. In any case, I then attended graduate school after my undergraduate training and attained a biological science PhD.

My question is, since I emigrated from Singapore at 8 yrs 10 months and thus did not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits of citizenship, can I reapply to renounce my citizen, escape National Service Default status with no punitive punishments and still be allowed to visit families in Singapore? My Singapore red passport was not a biometric one and has been expired for over 10 years. In fact, it has a pic of me at age 9 and I'm almost 30 now!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 03 Sep 2010 8:11 am

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Postby PsychoJet2 » Fri, 03 Sep 2010 8:29 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
PsychoJet2 wrote:Mad Scientist - Can you shed some light onto my situation?

This is somewhat unique (maybe not) that I have not been able to find an answer to on the CMP website. I emigrated from Singapore to the US with my family at the age of 8 yrs 10 months in 1989. I returned briefly in 1994 at the age of 13 on a short family vacation. While on that short vacation in Singapore, my family obtained an IC (pink card - I now realize that was a BIG mistake) for me. After returning from that vacation, I have not returned to Singapore since (though my parents did file for NS deferment when I approached 16 yrs of age).

Did CMPB or MINDEF acknowledge accept and approve of your deferment ?
Yes, it was accepted and deferred til age 16. By the time I turned 16, I basically decided that I was going to be a US citizen and stay here forever.

After I finished my high school education in the US, I decided not to return to Singapore for my National Service and instead continued my education by attending an University in the US. At that time, I was also nationalized as a US citizen with US passport and sought to renounce my Singapore citizenship, which was subsequently denied. I, thus, became a National Service Defaulter. In any case, I then attended graduate school after my undergraduate training and attained a biological science PhD.

My question is, since I emigrated from Singapore at 8 yrs 10 months and thus did not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits of citizenship,
Yes you did , by applying for your SG PP and Pink IC
Yep. I now realized how huge of a mistake that was.

can I reapply to renounce my citizen,

No, face the music, fine, jail time and serve the NS then renounce

escape National Service Default status with no punitive punishments

As above answer

and still be allowed to visit families in Singapore?

JB OK , SIngapore you will go to jail for sure
What does JB mean?

My Singapore red passport was not a biometric one and has been expired for over 10 years. In fact, it has a pic of me at age 9 and I'm almost 30 now!

Does not matter bio metric or not. Call Citizen Advise Bureau and check if you name is still in Population Roll and what liabilties you have. I bet you , your name is on the runner's list.
Actually I had changed both my surname and first name since I became a US citizen. I did retain my given name as my middle name though. Oh well. Guess Singapore does not want any money that folks like myself would bring as tourists.


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