Mad Scientist wrote:JktMom wrote:
MS, I know you have been helpful to many people in this forum, and some of them could be helped (e.g., their sons are still v.young, they are not in breach of any home-country laws by serving NS, etc). My son's case is not so straightforward - although many people are in the same situation, we rarely hear 1st-hand experiences from the people who decided against serving NS for whatever reason. I guess it's hard to take the legal training out of a lawyer - we tend to look at the law based on absolute terms. This conflict issue is an interesting one to me from a legal perspective, but not so much if it concerns my son's citizenship! In no way do I mean to 'ignore' your advice, I am also just sharing my perspective, findings and experience, and making sure I cover my bases in doing all that I can to help my son make an informed decision eventually. Hopefully, I will learn new things in this forum from people who are going through a similar experience, so your comments are all, I assure you, taken with an open mind - keep 'em coming! As mentioned previously, it is all much appreciated! 
MS, thanks for sharing. Some questions / comments in blue (please PM me if you prefer to keep the info private):
JktMom, I wish I could meet you in person but I can't as I am on assignment now. For the sake of this discussion , allow me to go further.
Most parents with young children will NOT have this problem. The issue will only start to evolve or turn into an ugly head around 13 years of age if they do not follow the protocol. My eldest son prior to him getting his deferment were of somewhat related issue. We did NOT apply for EP since we left just before he was 11 then. We even came back two years later to extend his SG PP which was valid for 10 years but ICA decides to restrict it to 2 yrs. B4 he turn 16, I even went to CMPB to apply for EP for him which was denied as they cannot capture his BC no. They can only capture those from 16 and above then. When we return to SG for his EP we went to CMPB to get his permit, yes I was interviewed blah blah but we showed proof of studies, usual address in overseas, the whole shebang, we got two years till 17 on line which was unusual as I was expecting only One Year.
(As I am preparing to face CMPB re. the expired EP) Were you interviewed alone or together with your son, or was your son interviewed alone? What sort of questions did they ask? Anyway, at the turn of 16 and a half, we managed to get foreign citizenship and coincidentally he needs to register for NS.pre enlistment .
By 'we' do you mean your whole family got foreign citizenship and did your son in fact register for NS pre-enlistment at 16.5yo?
There on, it was roller coaster for the whole family as my second son was about 14 too.I wrote to ICA, and CMPB proof of foreign citizenship with all the docs. Took quite awhile and the correspondence and request sometimes beyond me BUT MINDEF approved their deferment till 21 and they renounced at 21 .
As mentioned, Mindef has repeatedly and conclusively denied NS deferment till 21yo pending renunciation of SG citizenship for my son. To quote their email of today, "As a Singapore citizen, ... is required to fulfil his NS obligations before the request to renounce his Singapore citizenship can be considered." In other words, they may not even allow him to renounce his SG citizenship legally if he doesn't serve NS. I read in an earlier post in this thread that Mindef might grant the deferment if both parents are no longer SG citizens / PR & idly wondered if they would reconsider the deferment if we were somehow able to renounce my SG citizenship / my husband's PR before my son turned 18 (although this seems a rather drastic course of action). If futile (no hope of reconsideration for deferment), we will keep things status quo & not even try Both my sons are in tertiary in US and UK.
Congratulations! I hope they are doing well
While I respect your decision to allow your son to decide for his life but from my POV when he is at 16, he would not understand much. There are too much that he is grappling with at his age.
Girls, friends, hobbies etc.This life choice decision will not have much impact on him now. The effect be it good or otherwise will be realised later in life. All you can do is to provide a well informed decision of what you are going to do for him as A FAMILY. Tell him whatever you decide as a family at that given point of time with all the obstacles stack against him, that was the best decision. Let him have his say but that does not mean you have to accept his decision as this are very difficult to predict what his best for him. He may not want to accept your decision and lives to regret it OR he accepted your decision lives to enjoy it.We are not magician gazing at the crystal ball or clairvoyance that can foretod the unknown but hey, at least you can have comfort with the fact that the whole family is around you. That is more important than any draconian or ludicrous laws of human kind in the face of this earth.
Agreed, we have been discussing this issue with him since he could rationalize, and of course, the final decision will be made with everyone's agreement, with the parents' input holding appropriate weight and his realizing the consequences of the decision and aligning his life decisions accordingly if necessary. I had hoped for the deferment against all odds so that he could make the final decision together with us with more maturity, but no such luck 
.
Whether you go for it or not, no one can blame you, if you have covered all your bases. Like you have said, different family has their own predicament and issues to be resolved.No one is perfect
While we did this at the point before the piano man debacle erupted and we managed to leave unscathed. So yeah he was about 17 then.
So your whole family no longer hold SG citizenship or live/own assets in Spore? I think perhaps the piano man incident served to prompt a clampdown by Mindef - they no longer allow deferments so easily, so you might have had a timing advantage. While I am an ex military man and practically knows the guidelines like my back teeth even I made some judgemental error. I navigated all those minefield way before anyone able to provide me any answers. I have met hundreds of families overseas on first hand account how they negotiate this but some never do it, some did it halfway and screw it, others talk about it and others just do not know how to begin with it.Most of them has this misconception that CMPB and the Gahmen will do all they can "till death do them apart notion" . Which in fact if you read the guideline properly and follow to the T, you can never go wrong. You can even argue to your own benefit. So my first hand account, past working experience and on top of that the number of families that I helped first hand and thru the forums has someway managed to provide avenues for families struggling with these issues.
This unfortunately certainly has not proved true in my son's case, even though we have followed all the regulations / demands of Mindef / CMPB thus far. The fact that my son held a Singapore passport (he was not able to get his Ind PP until '09 as mentioned) immediately deemed him to have "enjoyed the benefits of SG citizenship" and this has been Mindef's basis for denying him deferment since '07.
I am neither for nor against NS.. My belief on this issue does not matter . What is important is to provide informations that will lead you to your decisions. Of course laws do change and we have to keep abreast with it. If I made any errors while providing this information , do forgive me as I am after all human.
I hold a similar view re. NS, I'm sure it has it pros & cons. I just need to ensure I have all the information to help my son make an informed decision based on what we know at this time (you are right, no one can foretell the future). You are beyond reproach, you continue to help everyone with your experience although your sons are already 'in the clear'.
Now on the subject of Indonesian Law, as I am not a trained lawyer, my kid sister is, if you take everything from a lawyer POV, you will not be able to continue living in any part of the world.
Indonesia is somewhat funny , the laws there are meant to be seen NOT to be followed literally. You go nuts when you do that. Everything is flexible.
This is true. I have lived here for 18+ years, so I know what you mean. However, we need to consider which laws impact us more personally, so whilst I'll always find ways around the formal regulations in business, etc, I would exercise more care when it came to personal / fundamental matters like citizenship. While I served SG Armed Forces in the 70s , I did not get any special treatment. Though I realise I may lose my Indon Citizenship then,my dad just do it for the sake of the family. Well, he was spot on and now I have my Indon citizenship back. Did Indon or Badan Immigrasi care even though I sometime extend my Indon PP at their Embassy in SG and declare of having SG Citizenship, They did not give a hoot. This piece of info from Indon Gahmen is just empty vessel. While SBY is definitely a better leader compare to Ibu Mega or Pak Gusdur. I feel SBY works in the same principle as Suharto as both are military men while SBY is definitely working for the people and Suharto for his families and cronies but in terms of international law no one wants to rock each other boat much. This is how Asean works . Has been and always will be.
I wonder why then the matter was brought up by the Indonesian Foreign Minister in '08? From the article it looks like a formal request was made by the Ind'sian Govt to the Singapore Govt - surely this would have rocked the boat somewhat? 
I applied the law to the T. At that time that was best for my family and I never regret it . So does my sons as they were well informed about my decision.
As mentioned, we have also applied the Singapore law judiciously, acceding to all their demands thus far; unfortunately it has not yielded the same good result for my family.
Children are flexible when they are young if you intend to uproot and will mixed with new friends. It is the parents that holds sentimental feelings of their birth place. So we tend to think that when we are old we will return back to Singapore and catch up "lost time". Let me tell you, your SG friends have moved on, they will not wait for you. By the time you came back here , you feel more like a stranger than before.
As mentioned, I have lived in Indonesia for 18+ years and my son since he was 5 weeks old, so definitely the ties to Indonesia are very strong and there are no plans whatsoever to return to Singapore long-term, except for short visits to family / grandparents.
It is your family that holds very dear to you no matter where you go
So true, especially for my son. The fact that his parents will probably live in Indonesia forever plays a part in his concern that his Indonesian citizenship remains inviolate. Neither my husband or I were born in Singapore, he schooled there for 5yrs before studying in the US and I grew up there until leaving for London at 18yo. So the sentimental ties to Singapore (at least as a birthplace) are somewhat diluted.
If you wish to talk in private PM me and I will go from there.
Again, you have been most generous with your time - thank you.
Good Luck
Actually I only realized this when CMPB brought it up in June '10, so now we are trying to request that the fine be paid in absentia as my son is in the midst of an academic term.
