National Service Deferment Procedure in Singapore.

[helloagain]

helloagain
After alot of soul searching, your son EP that states social visit is the main cause, .......... Can I know why did you chose this reason?

@SMS; to keep you in the loop, EP once turning 13 is good as gold as Kraik sticky said BUT the reason of why you intend to go overseas will make MINDEF thru CMPB considers to allow you or not to defer.

The EP was applied after our application for deferment was denied. At that time, we assumed all exit permits are the same so we picked the one which we need to provide least information. We did appeal a number of times after we got the exit permit, as you said, that may be the main reason we got multiple denials……

Just to make sure I understand the steps correctly, the following is what I am planning to do. Please correct as needed.

1. Obtain a letter from my son’s current school stating that he is a student of the school with the start date and end date. (He will be starting high school at a different school later this year. Will I need a letter from the new school, too? Also, will I need to include the previous school he was attending since kindergarten until 4th grade?)

2. Copy the school letter, his US passport, all pages of his SG passports (the one expired at age 11 and the renewed one which is still valid but never used), all his EPs, and copy of my wife’s and my US passport.

3. Send items listed in 2) together with a letter that plead for leniency on the ground that my son left SG since 1996 and he has been studying in US since 1998 although the EP states social visit. Inform CMPB that my son has gained US citizenship and we are prepared to pay any fines incurred due to our ignorance of EP status. Also state that my son is still schooling and will complete in 2018 and inform them that my family has already gained US citizenship. As we do not want to flout the SG law, we plead for leniency to grant deferment pending renunciation of 21 years of age. (Can I email CMPB instead of sending snail mail? Do I need to get the “application for deferment until 21 pending renunciation”

[Mad Scientist]

Deleted

[eleewhm]

i will follow thru on the other thread .. thanks

[InAust]

Hi MS...

Wanted to discuss another major step. My son is 10 this year and we just renewed his passport as his passport is expiring next year. We have not collected it as yet. We renewed his ppt as we want to visit SG next year.

We are PRs now and are eligible to be aust citizens in Feb 2012. I am concerned if this renewal will affect his deferment situation. Please share your thoughts. Thank you!
InAust

[sundaymorningstaple]

InAust,

Is there any particular reason why you did not take the time to read this thread from the beginning?

All we have is anecdotal evidence to go by, MS got away with it, but his was well before the PianoMan being splashed on the front page of the papers. Now, it may well be setting yourself, or rather your son, for future disaster.

sms

[JktMom]

Hi all, through an unfortunate set of circumstances, my 16yo son who is holding Indonesia-Singapore dual citizenship is caught in a conflict of laws between the Singapore Enlistment Act & Indonesia's Citizenship Law, which prohibits an Indonesian citizen from serving in a foreign military. We are not opposed to him serving NS, but doing so will jeopardize his Indonesian Citizenship (which he intends to keep & renounce his Singapore citizenship as soon as he is able) - he could end up stateless at some future date if he serves NS, renounces his S'porean citizenship, and the Indonesian Govt exercises its right to revoke his Indonesian citizenship at any future time for serving in a foreign military. As the risk is unduly onerous (please proceed on the basis that it will be v.hard to 'buy' himself out of the situation, common assumptions of how things work in Indonesia notwithstanding), we feel our hands are truly tied due to the conflict of laws, i.e. to observe the laws of one country would necessarily breach those of the other.

We have been through the whole shebang of trying to obtain deferment (repeatedly denied), being summoned back for an expired exit permit (EP) (which I had inadvertently let expire in Nov'09), writing to my MP who wrote to Mindef on our behalf (& got a flat-out denial), emailing to Ministry of Foreign Affairs (only to have the email re-routed back to Mindef!) and are now dealing with EP enforcement agents to try to "resolve...EP offences" and bracing for the demand for the bond.

Wondering if anyone out there has any legal contacts (own research has yielded scant results - apparently not many Spore lawyers dealing with NS cases, since the law is iron-clad) that might be able to help in the event that we decide to TRY to mitigate the harsh consequences by pleading mitigating circumstances. Still trying to work through this mess, all because of the 'mistake' of giving birth to him in Singapore!

[sundaymorningstaple]

JktMom,

We had a similar discussion a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, the Mom & son in question never got back to us with any information on a resolution of a very sticky problem re: Singapore vrs. Indonesia and Indonesian policy of the loss of citizenship if served in a foreign military. Have a read through the thread, but honestly, unless MS has something else (he wasn't around back when that thread was live - only in the last couple of months). As MS is originally from Indonesia he may well know something we don't. But, personally, I don't know any way around it.

sms

[JktMom]

JktMom,

We had a similar discussion a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, the Mom & son in question never got back to us with any information on a resolution of a very sticky problem re: Singapore vrs. Indonesia and Indonesian policy of the loss of citizenship if served in a foreign military. Have a read through the thread, but honestly, unless MS has something else (he wasn't around back when that thread was live - only in the last couple of months). As MS is originally from Indonesia he may well know something we don't. But, personally, I don't know any way around it.

sms

Hi SMS,

That was probably me (tried to login using old details but forgot password & email address no longer in use, so just re-registered)! As you can see, the problem is on-going with no resolution in sight. Can't really see any way out of this dilemma, just working through it and sharing info in case anyone finds it useful or can provide any useful nuggets. So far, both countries are holding firm in that each is a sovereign nation whose laws their citizen must abide by. Notwithstanding that Singapore & Indonesia are both members of ASEAN, there seems to be no procedures for resolution in the event of a conflict of laws, so that's where we're caught as laymen, due to the lack of diplomacy. Making the $75k bond 'donation' to Mindef / Singapore govt is painful, considering it does not provide any resolution for my son, he will still be labeled a defaulter if he does not serve NS, and can never set foot in Singapore again. Harsh, but on the flip-side, it would be worse if years later the Indonesian Govt demands even more from him with a threat of revoking his Indonesian citizenship & rendering him stateless (when they really have him by the short & curlies). So basically, dammed if we do & damned if we don't!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Thought it sounded familiar, even your nick! Hopefully MS will see this and can maybe shed some additional info.

http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/ftopic45607.html

sms

[JktMom]

Thought it sounded familiar, even your nick! Hopefully MS will see this and can maybe shed some additional info.

http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/ftopic45607.html

sms

Hi SMS

Yep, that was me - thought that thread was lost forever after the system crash! MS, you mentioned in your other threads a lawyer that could help (in some of the other peoples' cases), but have since stopped the recommendations. I am wondering what the best way is around this predicament - both husband (PR) & I (S'porean) are willing to renounce our PR/citizenship (now looking into getting Indonesian PR for myself) if it will help our son, but I'm not sure how it could...

[Mad Scientist]

Deleted

[JktMom]

Thought it sounded familiar, even your nick! Hopefully MS will see this and can maybe shed some additional info.

http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/ftopic45607.html

sms

Hi SMS

Yep, that was me - thought that thread was lost forever after the system crash! MS, you mentioned in your other threads a lawyer that could help (in some of the other peoples' cases), but have since stopped the recommendations. I am wondering what the best way is around this predicament - both husband (PR) & I (S'porean) are willing to renounce our PR/citizenship (now looking into getting Indonesian PR for myself) if it will help our son, but I'm not sure how it could...

Hi MS,

First of all I am not a lawyer. (Caveat understood, I on the other hand, AM a lawyer! ) I am from an Indonesian/Portugese(The Real Deal Portugese) but became Indonesian) Father , married to a Chinese Thai Mother. What a rojak family!!! I married to a Caucasian wife German/Swedish ancestry. Talk about real rojak !!!
Born in Indonesia but became a Sger. Hope this clears things out.

Let's take a look at one part at a time. After reading your post months ago. Correct me where I go wrong.
CMPB
1. Your son left Singapore after 13 without applying Exit Permit ? Left SG @ 5wks, lived in Jkt all along; applied EP @ 13yo which expired Nov'09
2. Your son hold SG PP and Indonesia PP ? Yes. Since he only got his Ind'sian PP in Jun '09 (it took 3 years to get it after the Citizenship Law of '06 allowed dual citizenship!). SG PP is biometiric, still valid.
3. Travelling back to SG every year with SG PP ? SG PP not used since he got his Ind'sian PP.
4. When did you start comms with CMPB. Which year and how old was he ? 2007, when he was 13yo.
5. When did CMPB rejects your EP or deferment. Deferment rejected several times since '07. Re. EP, didn't realize it had expired; after failing to renew online, they have asked twice for him to 'return to Singapore to resolve his EP offences', but I'm trying to ask if they will accept payment of a fine without him returning.
6. How old is he now ? Just turned 16 in July (that's why could not apply for EP renewal online)


SK Dwi Kewarganagaraan Terbatas 2006
1. I linked you to one from Indonesia Embassy in Sydney http://www.kjri-sydney.org.au/dual%20citizenship%20desc
2. Has he applied for citizenship and when was that ?I believe before 2006 It was in 2006, after amendments to the Citizenship Law allowed for dual citizenship.
3. Has he got Indonesian PP? Yes, in 2009
4. Under the Formulir Terbatas Immigrasi. If your son chose not to have INdonesian PP., all he needs is a stamp right of abode or right of entry so that he can lives and work in Indonesia without any residency permit by virtue your husband is an Indonesian. He obtained Indonesian citizenship the moment the law allowed it (we actually requested it at birth, but of course was rejected at Mt E as I am S'porean). Until '06, he lived & schooled here on KIM/S.
5. If holds an Indonesian PP then he has 3 years from the age of 18 to decide to renounce his foreign PP i.e SG PP Trouble is, SG won't allow renunciation until 21yo & after serving NS! Now getting another letter from Ministry of Justice & Human Rights to certify his Indonesian citizenship (will advise what form this takes when we get it in 1.5mths' time).

Indonesia side of story is easy to solve. The issue is CMPB.
I need to know full picture as where you stand right now so that I can advise you to the best of my knowledge

Indonesian authorities have confirmed that as an Indonesian citizen, he is prohibited from serving in the military of a foreign country including SG. But as a S'porean by birth, he is also bound by the Enlistment Act. The problem is: How to resolve the conflict of laws? My son is willing to serve NS, but he intends to keep his Indonesian citizenship & live / work in Indonesia in the future, and we don't want to run the risk of the Indonesian govt revoking his Ind'sian citizenship any time in the future, thus rendering him stateless.

[Mad Scientist]

Deleted

[InAust]

Hi MS,

I had read thru the thread...but had somehow missed this part of passport renewal info...very sorry about that. I was assuming I should renew the passport before my son turns 11 for(will turn 11 next Mar) and wanted to quickly apply before next year hits. His current passport will expire in Mar 2011. Now it seems it is my wrong move....Silly me!. What do you think I should do now??. I have not collected it as yet....Immi has sent me an email saying it is ready for collection. I am panicking now!.

Regards
InAust

[Mad Scientist]