National Service Deferment Procedure in Singapore.

[ZigZagInits]

Hello all,

I appreciate the wealth of info on this board already. I've been scouring through decades worth of detailed and valuable information here and am hoping to get clarity on some nuances specific to our current and future situation. Hoping some folks are still watching this.

Background
-Me: US citizen, SG EP holder, no SG PR.
-Wife: Singaporean citizen, US PR. Left Sg for uni and has not worked here.
-Incoming: Son, who will be born in Singapore (SC by birth). We will also immediately register for US citizenship by descent.
-Other children: 2 daughters with USC (birth) and SC (descent). Both pre-K or younger currently.
-Property in Singapore: None
-Time in Singapore: 3yr assignment total, ending 2026. Short visits to see family thereafter.

We plan to return to the US when my assignment in Sg is completed. We have no intention of living long-term in Singapore as a family unit once we return to the US. I understand that we should:
-Not apply for Sg passport at all. Same for IC.
-Not claim Baby Bonus, gov't paid leave, etc.
-Keep a clean slate as early as possible, and certainly after age 11.
-Announce intentions for our son to renounce to CMPB, MinDef, and ICA early and often. Specifically at these three points: when we leave the country, at age 11, and at age 13.

Question: If my wife does not renounce her SC, to what extent is that known to jeopardize any request to defer our son's NS until 21 for him to renounce? We are reluctant for her to renounce her citizenship in case she needs to return to care for her parents in the future. We will have otherwise completely divested from Singapore's public benefits financially and hold no property here.

If she did need to move, we anticipate it would either:
(1) be after our children are adults, or
(2) uproot our entire family, at which point we would willfully expect our son to serve NS.

We are ultimately trying to determine if we should consider NS as guaranteed if my wife does not renounce. Doing so would prevent us from needing to walk on eggshells for the next 18+ years and would open us up to additional possibilities to prepare for that future.

[PNGMK]

Fly back to the US to give Birth to the son. That assures US Citizenship and disallows ICA auto claiming your son is SC by birth to a Singapore mother in Singapore (otherwise you MUST disavow Singapore citizenship for him at birth if you don't want NS for him which becomes a black mark or as you surmise you have to jump through too many hoops to make sure no NS liability). Should your son sometime in the future decide to work in Singapore he has no black mark and no NS liability. Do not register the birth at ICA.

Right now the odds are against you. You cannot have cake and it eat - the entire family unit must migrate - no pick no chose.

Remember you can also go just to Guam to give birth or Hawaii - no need to go to Continental US. Another variation is to give birth NOT in Singapore but another country like Malaysia - then register the birth only with US consulate.

[ZigZagInits]

I appreciate the quick reply from a reputable contributor & moderator.

Fly back to the US to give Birth to the son.

We're considering this as well and are weighing the logistical challenges [relocating back to the US for the birth, implications on US taxes if I return for too many days, etc]. But we're aware of this as the only sure-fire way to have a clear road ahead.

(otherwise you MUST disavow Singapore citizenship for him at birth if you don't want NS for him which becomes a black mark or as you surmise you have to jump through too many hoops to make sure no NS liability.

Is this possible? If so, can you outline how, or point to another post where it was done? We had been searching for information on that and had come to the conclusion that citizenship would happen upon registering the birth with no option to disavow or otherwise not claim. Logistically, not claiming the citizenship/disavowing on birth would be the preferred option.

If it is indeed possible, what is the "black mark" placed upon the child? More difficult for them to obtain an EP or PR in the future? If so, that seems similar to their status upon renouncing Sg citizenship in the future, and would be preferred to the other steps in the process.

Right now the odds are against you. You cannot have cake and it eat - the entire family unit must migrate - no pick no chose.

Understood that my wife renouncing would present a clearer path forward. But are there documented examples of folks in the forum over the years that have successfully deferred without the SC parent renouncing? Do you have a sense for how highly stacked the odds against us would be?

Remember you can also go just to Guam to give birth or Hawaii - no need to go to Continental US. Another variation is to give birth NOT in Singapore but another country like Malaysia - then register the birth only with US consulate.

We've also considered JB as a nearby alternative, though we're not keen to assume the risks associated with delivering there. Deliveries for our first two children had some complications, so we're sensitive to not increase any delivery risks.

[PNGMK]

The black mark occurs when a SC mother gives birth to a boy child in Singapore and the parents don't take up SC because they have other options. I'm not sure what happens now but previously the parents would be warned and told they are basically signing away the rights of the child to work / live in Singapore as a result. Both SMS and I know very infuential men who have poo poo'd this - had their sons born in Singapore but refused to have them take up SC. Later on those boys have tried to take up EP or PR but been told they have outstanding issues.

ICA are fully aware of the game you are playing (trying to maintain a residence and foothold here while not committing your male children to NS).

[malcontent]

We've also considered JB as a nearby alternative, though we're not keen to assume the risks associated with delivering there. Deliveries for our first two children had some complications, so we're sensitive to not increase any delivery risks.

Honestly, giving birth outside Singapore seems like the simplest, least troublesome, least risky and most effective way to achieve your objective.

I know everyone here has this idea that it’s riskier in Malaysia, but I doubt you’ll be going to the public hospital there. Have you checked out Gleneagles Hospital Medini Johor? Seems to be a new, modern, Medisave accredited, highly rated facility that is a 20 minute drive from the Tuas border. I don’t have first hand experience, but I know my in-laws have already started using it. Being a Singapore branded hospital is what sold them.

[ZigZagInits]

Thanks for the insight. Giving birth outside of Sg is certainly the least complicated in the long-term, albeit the most complicated in the short term. We'll continue looking into Gleneagles JB as an alternative to the US.

The complexity and potential disruption of following processes internationally is one of the motivators for us wanting to avoid claiming entirely; even with an intention to maintain Singaporean citizenship and rightfully serve NS, we would still need to follow procedures to ensure the necessary exit permits, deferrals to finish secondary school, etc are in place.

That said, ultimately our goal is to ensure accepting the opportunity to live temporarily in Singapore doesn't result in a disruptive long-term impact the trajectory of our son's life or my wife's life insofar as we can help it. Had the chance for short-term relocation to Sg not fallen into our laps at this time, the child would have been born in the US like their siblings.

Again, thanks all for the insight! I do very much appreciate it. If we have other questions, or if we pursue a path that may be a relevant learning opportunity for others [defer without wife renouncing SC, disavow at birth, deliver in JB], I may report back.

[Lisafuller]

Thanks for the insight. Giving birth outside of Sg is certainly the least complicated in the long-term, albeit the most complicated in the short term. We'll continue looking into Gleneagles JB as an alternative to the US.

The complexity and potential disruption of following processes internationally is one of the motivators for us wanting to avoid claiming entirely; even with an intention to maintain Singaporean citizenship and rightfully serve NS, we would still need to follow procedures to ensure the necessary exit permits, deferrals to finish secondary school, etc are in place.

That said, ultimately our goal is to ensure accepting the opportunity to live temporarily in Singapore doesn't result in a disruptive long-term impact the trajectory of our son's life or my wife's life insofar as we can help it. Had the chance for short-term relocation to Sg not fallen into our laps at this time, the child would have been born in the US like their siblings.

Again, thanks all for the insight! I do very much appreciate it. If we have other questions, or if we pursue a path that may be a relevant learning opportunity for others [defer without wife renouncing SC, disavow at birth, deliver in JB], I may report back.

I wouldn't do JB. If delivering in the US is at all possible, go for it.

[Lisafuller]

The black mark occurs when a SC mother gives birth to a boy child in Singapore and the parents don't take up SC because they have other options. I'm not sure what happens now but previously the parents would be warned and told they are basically signing away the rights of the child to work / live in Singapore as a result. Both SMS and I know very infuential men who have poo poo'd this - had their sons born in Singapore but refused to have them take up SC. Later on those boys have tried to take up EP or PR but been told they have outstanding issues.

ICA are fully aware of the game you are playing (trying to maintain a residence and foothold here while not committing your male children to NS).

I guess to the ICA it's kind of a slap in the face, if you have your child abroad at least you are not being openly defiant.

[malcontent]

I wouldn't do JB. If delivering in the US is at all possible, go for it.

Why not?

Have you checked out the Gleneagles there? It appears better than the one here. Looking through the resident doctors, it seems similar to what you’d get here, majority are Chinese Malaysian doctors with UK credentials.

Before dismissing it, I would suggest the OP contact the hospital (or even better, schedule an in-person visit) to discuss the idea with a resident O&G doctor or two.

[PNGMK]

I wouldn't do JB. If delivering in the US is at all possible, go for it.

Why not?

Have you checked out the Gleneagles there? It appears better than the one here. Looking through the resident doctors, it seems similar to what you’d get here, majority are Chinese Malaysian doctors with UK credentials.

Before dismissing it, I would suggest the OP contact the hospital (or even better, schedule an in-person visit) to discuss the idea with a resident O&G doctor or two.

Medical issues are one thing but a hold up in getting a new passport, birth cert etc from the US embassy in MY are another.

[malcontent]

I wouldn't do JB. If delivering in the US is at all possible, go for it.

Why not?

Have you checked out the Gleneagles there? It appears better than the one here. Looking through the resident doctors, it seems similar to what you’d get here, majority are Chinese Malaysian doctors with UK credentials.

Before dismissing it, I would suggest the OP contact the hospital (or even better, schedule an in-person visit) to discuss the idea with a resident O&G doctor or two.

Medical issues are one thing but a hold up in getting a new passport, birth cert etc from the US embassy in MY are another.

Valid point. Despite being 20 minutes from the border, you won’t be able to cross it until bub has a passport. That means a trip to KL with bub and mama (or a sworn statement from her) to apply, then wait a couple of weeks for issuance.

Well, how about Bangkok? Outside of Singapore, Bangkok has the best medical care in SE Asia. Bumrungrad Hospital (the famous one, most often recommended) is just a 23 minute walk from the US embassy in Bangkok. At least it avoids flying to the US and paying double the price of Singapore for giving birth (while getting treated worse, in all likelihood).

[ZigZagInits]

I wouldn't do JB. If delivering in the US is at all possible, go for it.

Why not?

Have you checked out the Gleneagles there? It appears better than the one here. Looking through the resident doctors, it seems similar to what you’d get here, majority are Chinese Malaysian doctors with UK credentials.

Before dismissing it, I would suggest the OP contact the hospital (or even better, schedule an in-person visit) to discuss the idea with a resident O&G doctor or two.

Medical issues are one thing but a hold up in getting a new passport, birth cert etc from the US embassy in MY are another.

We've started looking into the Gleneagles there, as well as the process for getting a passport. From what we can tell, this might be preferable to going to the US.

Logistically it is more straightfoward as we'd only be a short drive away from our extended family in Singapore and it would ultimately require less time outside of Singapore when we take the the no-fly windows before/after delivery into consideration. We'd need to go to KL for the passport/birth cert, but turnaround on that looks comparable [or shorter, even] than in the US.

[malcontent]

Why not?

Have you checked out the Gleneagles there? It appears better than the one here. Looking through the resident doctors, it seems similar to what you’d get here, majority are Chinese Malaysian doctors with UK credentials.

Before dismissing it, I would suggest the OP contact the hospital (or even better, schedule an in-person visit) to discuss the idea with a resident O&G doctor or two.

Medical issues are one thing but a hold up in getting a new passport, birth cert etc from the US embassy in MY are another.

We've started looking into the Gleneagles there, as well as the process for getting a passport. From what we can tell, this might be preferable to going to the US.

Logistically it is more straightfoward as we'd only be a short drive away from our extended family in Singapore and it would ultimately require less time outside of Singapore when we take the the no-fly windows before/after delivery into consideration. We'd need to go to KL for the passport/birth cert, but turnaround on that looks comparable [or shorter, even] than in the US.

Be sure to check into the capabilities of their neonatal unit, and maybe even check with the ICA on what protocols exist for an emergency border crossing for resident parents who have a newborn without a passport — in that unlikely event, you’d wanna know in advance.

[Lisafuller]

I wouldn't do JB. If delivering in the US is at all possible, go for it.

Why not?

Have you checked out the Gleneagles there? It appears better than the one here. Looking through the resident doctors, it seems similar to what you’d get here, majority are Chinese Malaysian doctors with UK credentials.

Before dismissing it, I would suggest the OP contact the hospital (or even better, schedule an in-person visit) to discuss the idea with a resident O&G doctor or two.

Having a child in MY opens up a whole can of worms in terms of citizenship.

[Lisafuller]

I wouldn't do JB. If delivering in the US is at all possible, go for it.

Why not?

Have you checked out the Gleneagles there? It appears better than the one here. Looking through the resident doctors, it seems similar to what you’d get here, majority are Chinese Malaysian doctors with UK credentials.

Before dismissing it, I would suggest the OP contact the hospital (or even better, schedule an in-person visit) to discuss the idea with a resident O&G doctor or two.

Medical issues are one thing but a hold up in getting a new passport, birth cert etc from the US embassy in MY are another.

My thoughts exactly. That, and I'm not sure how I feel about the quality of medical service.