National Service Deferment Procedure in Singapore.

[Chewbacca]

Thanks for your prompt and informative replies. It's interesting the mention about "having benefited" from Singapore citizen privileges, that appears to be a key point

Going the other way now, I'd like to seek your opinion on the option of a complete exit strategy. Please correct where I have this wrong:
- sell HDB, as per normal, funds will first goto CPF where applicable and you also get the cash portion
- which then brings about the issue of taking out your CPF
- if SG citizen exiting completely, I assume in most cases you can get 100% out? or are there conditions?

What happens if the other parent is M'sian on SgPR?
- if SgPR is tied to spouse by marriage I assume this PR right would be revoked?
- if revoked, can get CPF out 100% or does the M'sian rule still apply?
- what's the "treatment" if M'sian spouse were to re-apply for economic PR in future? would Gov likely to "play punk" from historical cases?

And on other minor issues, the case of bank accounts, what happens to them upon exit, can both parents hang on to their accounts? I assume yes but probably not for credit cards?

[x9200]

A real case

http://www.todayonline.com/singapore/ns ... onths-jail

Man jailed 1.5 months for evading NS for six years

He come back for NS after university studies.

I found this part interesting:

The custodial threshold will generally be crossed when an overseas defaulter who has a “substantial connection” to Singapore remains overseas without a VEP for more than two years, he said.

In Chow’s case, he left Singapore after years of education, but his family resides here and he intended to do the same.

“He therefore has and will reap the benefits of Singapore citizenship and has, by delaying his NS obligations, violated the principles of equity and universality and undermined the fair share argument,” said Justice Chan.

Immediate question: what if no benefits and no connections? I thought they were pretty inflexible in cases of the defaulters regardless the benefits and the connections.

[Mad Scientist]

Thanks for your prompt and informative replies. It's interesting the mention about "having benefited" from Singapore citizen privileges, that appears to be a key point

Yes, once child pass 13 years of age and applied for IC is considered as having benefit from socio-economic point

Going the other way now, I'd like to seek your opinion on the option of a complete exit strategy. Please correct where I have this wrong:
- sell HDB, as per normal, funds will first goto CPF where applicable and you also get the cash portion
Once you sell the house , all monies will go to CPF minus what is owed to HDB etc unless there is a cash portion outside the transaction. That part you have to talk to your agent in its intricacies. . it will stay there until you apply for renunciation. Once you have been approved, only then you can apply to release the fund to you once they have authenticate that you are the person concern.
Remember ICA has no involvement with CPF. So go to ICA for renounciation then CPF for your money

- which then brings about the issue of taking out your CPF
As per above

- if SG citizen exiting completely, I assume in most cases you can get 100% out? or are there conditions?
Yes,unless you have monies owed to Gahmen such as fines, duties etc and god know what. That is why it takes 6 weeks once you submit your renounciation docs to ICA
What happens if the other parent is M'sian on SgPR?
If SPR is under family ties, spouse will lose PR once the other half renunciation is approved hence PR needs to be return if not spouse applies by oneself then spouse gets to keep it. This guideline might change under family ties hence I suggest seek ICA clarification

- if SgPR is tied to spouse by marriage I assume this PR right would be revoked?
Yes as per above
- if revoked, can get CPF out 100% or does the M'sian rule still apply?
Not sure on this
- what's the "treatment" if M'sian spouse were to re-apply for economic PR in future? would Gov likely to "play punk" from historical cases?

God knows, they have the ball and the paddock to themselves

And on other minor issues, the case of bank accounts, what happens to them upon exit, can both parents hang on to their accounts? I assume yes but probably not for credit cards?
Nothing changes , you can still keep bank account , CC etc. ICA has no direct control on the management of your money. Keep your POSB account upon CPF verifies you and approves the release of your money, you get to choose to transfer to your foreign bank account or local. I choose the latter as it is easier and you can always return as a tourist and withdraw cash from local bank. No fuss. If overseas transfer will involve commission fees and proof of funds and with the terror threat things going on, your fund may subject to further scrutiny

[Chewbacca]

Brilliantly replied. Understood all of that perfectly. Thank you very much.

Next area of concern looks further into the future after all is done and dusted:
- what if the parents (now classified as "foreigners") want to re-invest their CPF, which is assumed to have been released, into buying say... private property. Can or cannot? Any complications? And any "catchas" to watch out?

- Also I heard something about foreigners buying HDB properties???

[Mad Scientist]

Brilliantly replied. Understood all of that perfectly. Thank you very much.

Next area of concern looks further into the future after all is done and dusted:
- what if the parents (now classified as "foreigners") want to re-invest their CPF, which is assumed to have been released, into buying say... private property. Can or cannot? Any complications? And any "catchas" to watch out?

- Also I heard something about foreigners buying HDB properties???

I do not know on this part. My understanding from years ago living in Singapore it only caters for those properties that is private and only foreigners that are allowed to purchase. HDB never heard that before. Sorry I cannot help you

[Mad Scientist]

Hey BBCW go and talk about your money thingey somewhere else. This thread is NS stuff. I am so bored with your blah blah blah and it is not the right place.
So what OP wants already being replied by me. Stop smoking that juice please!!!

[ecureilx]

- Also I heard something about foreigners buying HDB properties???

I do not know on this part. My understanding from years ago living in Singapore it only caters for those properties that is private and only foreigners that are allowed to purchase. HDB never heard that before. Sorry I cannot help you

When HK merged with China, there was a silly rumour going around that Singapore built HDB apartments so the HK refugees can be accommodated there, and in the process, a lot of money can be made. And in reality, when Chris Patten gave his speech and the Union Jack was lowered for the last time, not many Hong Kongers took the last flight out of Ibiza.

And those who could afford, went to better places.

And as usual, after a couple of stiff Martel, the natives will still go 'HDB and Mr Yew bet heavily on selling to the HK folks and lost .. ' And you can only shake your head and pretend to agree.

And I too never heard of HDB being sold to foreigners.

[Pal]

Just restored this thead

[almond2009]

Dear forum members, I have been reading up on all the posts on citizenship and NS issues on the forum, and realised that I'm in trouble with my child's future. This forum has been great help for people seeking advice. I think most of us end up on the wrong side of the government, not because we intentionally set out to play the system, but plans do change in life and we did not see far enough. I hope you can guide me out of my situation.

I'm a Singapore citizen living in the UK. My husband is a UK citizen and ex-PR who renounced PR before 18, hence he has no prospect of returning to Singapore. I have a daughter who was born in Singapore and she is a Singapore citizen. My daughter and I moved to the UK to join my husband in 2012. I have acquired UK PR, and I'm eligible for UK citizenship.

My son was born in the UK in 2015. He is a UK citizenship by birth. I registered him for Singapore citizenship after he was born, and as a result of it, he acquired a Singapore passport. At that point, I felt that he should be given a choice between UK and Singapore, and I also thought NS is good for young men (my view on this hasn't changed).

Fast forward 2 years, I'm now regretting deeply having registered him for Singapore citizenship, because of the uncertainties of the future and the government's vindictive attitude if he decides to renounces his citizenship without serving NS. Hence here are my questions:
(a) I read somewhere in some of the posts that it is possible to give up Singapore citizenship when one is young. I can't find anything on this on government websites, as every website says they can't renounce until 21. Do you know if this is possible and how can it be done? I would give anything to turn back the clock and reverse my decision to get Singapore citizenship for my son.

(b) I understand there are some protocols one can follow to seek deferment until 21 then renounce citizenship. However, I note that the family members must also cut off ties with Singapore. In order for the deferment to be successful, do I have to renounce Singapore citizenship too? How about my daughter? The reason I ask this is that my parents and my brother are all settled in Singapore, and I would still like to move back one day regardless of where my son or husband lives in the future. If I have to renounce Singapore citizenship, by what age of my son do I have to renounce?

(c) I read that some people have followed the protocols (e.g. left before 11, did not renew passport, did not get IC) and still not been granted deferment. What could be the reason for this? I just want to make sure I have not broken any of the requirements.

Sorry for the long post. Your advice will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[PNGMK]

Dear forum members, I have been reading up on all the posts on citizenship and NS issues on the forum, and realised that I'm in trouble with my child's future. This forum has been great help for people seeking advice. I think most of us end up on the wrong side of the government, not because we intentionally set out to play the system, but plans do change in life and we did not see far enough. I hope you can guide me out of my situation.

I'm a Singapore citizen living in the UK. My husband is a UK citizen and ex-PR who renounced PR before 18, hence he has no prospect of returning to Singapore. I have a daughter who was born in Singapore and she is a Singapore citizen. My daughter and I moved to the UK to join my husband in 2012. I have acquired UK PR, and I'm eligible for UK citizenship.

My son was born in the UK in 2015. He is a UK citizenship by birth. I registered him for Singapore citizenship after he was born, and as a result of it, he acquired a Singapore passport. At that point, I felt that he should be given a choice between UK and Singapore, and I also thought NS is good for young men (my view on this hasn't changed).

Fast forward 2 years, I'm now regretting deeply having registered him for Singapore citizenship, because of the uncertainties of the future and the government's vindictive attitude if he decides to renounces his citizenship without serving NS. Hence here are my questions:
(a) I read somewhere in some of the posts that it is possible to give up Singapore citizenship when one is young. I can't find anything on this on government websites, as every website says they can't renounce until 21. Do you know if this is possible and how can it be done? I would give anything to turn back the clock and reverse my decision to get Singapore citizenship for my son.

(b) I understand there are some protocols one can follow to seek deferment until 21 then renounce citizenship. However, I note that the family members must also cut off ties with Singapore. In order for the deferment to be successful, do I have to renounce Singapore citizenship too? How about my daughter? The reason I ask this is that my parents and my brother are all settled in Singapore, and I would still like to move back one day regardless of where my son or husband lives in the future. If I have to renounce Singapore citizenship, by what age of my son do I have to renounce?

(c) I read that some people have followed the protocols (e.g. left before 11, did not renew passport, did not get IC) and still not been granted deferment. What could be the reason for this? I just want to make sure I have not broken any of the requirements.

Sorry for the long post. Your advice will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

1. Do you intend to return to Singapore for any significant period of residence? If not then you should begin severing links. Your own SC, your CPF, your HDB. Not doing so implies you intend to return (with children) to Singapore.
2. In the meantime do not register son for NRIC at 15, surrender his Singapore PP (if he has one) immediately as possible to your nearest Singapore mission and on your next trip back go to CMPB and enquire about current procedures for (Mad Scientist may chip in with some further advice). There used to be a flowchart or pamphlet online but I think it disappeared.
3. IMO you have a fair chance of avoiding an NS liability as so far your son has not received significant material benefits from being Singaporean YET (although every day he holds a Singapore PP he actually is receiving benefit some argue). While you cannot (it appears) have his Singapore Citizenship surrendered before he is 21 you can do a fair bit to make it easier when the time comes. Note that there is a set of specific procedures to be followed which MS is aware of more than myself but most of it starts at the age of 13 or so when the male child needs to apply for leave to be out of Singapore (https://www.cmpb.gov.sg/cmpb/before-ns/ ... -and-bond/).


I stole the below and edited it slightly from (http://asingaporeanson.blogspot.sg/2015 ... t-you.html_

IANAL and I know nothing but I find this a useful topic for my own family.



1) The immediate family should migrate out of Singapore before any sons turns 11. This includes the parents successfully migrating and potentially surrendering all ties to Singapore (CPF, HDB) for 100% guarantee as per point 6 (note the age mentioned - I cannot verify this). The reason 11 is chosen I believe is this is pre PSLE usually.

2) You should also document the departure date and new foreign address and inform ICA of the change of address here: http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=142. This is important as it shows intent to follow procedure and protocol and keeps you abreast of any ICA or CMPB notices. Many correspondents on this forum have screwed up their CMPB issues by not being aware of notices. Don't be one of them.

3) On each son's 13th birthday, write a "Letter on Intention to Migrate" to both the ICA and MINDEF, basically to inform them of the intention to migrate out of Singapore for good, and the son's intention to renounce his Singapore citizenship by the age of 21. Include a photocopy of his B.C., proof of foreign school enrolment\attendance, proof of departure date from Singapore, and send it to the ICA and CMPB at the following address (check online for current address please):

ICA Renunciation Unit
10 Kallang Road, #06-00
Singapore 208718
Tel# +65-6391-6316

Central Manpower Base
3 Depot Road, #02-07
Tel# +65-6373-3132
Singapore 109680

4) Between now to the renouncement of any Singapore citizenship, do should NOT accept a pink IC or renew his Singapore passport. I would recommend SURRENDERING immediately any Singapore PP if your son/s has another already.

5) If a son is successful in getting the deferment from age 13 to 21, then all is well, but if not, and he need to go back to Singapore, then we should apply Exit Permits for him between age 13 to 18. Apply for one year and 364 days per MS advice. You do not need to return the son to Singapore to do this I believe. You should be able to apply for exit permits online.

6) At the age of 18, he should apply for deferment again from the CMPB (say we were not successful on the first round) as per the procedure on CMPB website. However, in order to prove our intention to migrate out of Singapore for good, we as parents should also renounce our Singapore citizenship BEFORE he reach 18 years old (or earlier if possible and severe ties to Singapore such as CPF and HDB)

7) Then at the age of 21 (within 12 months of 21 I believe), he can renounce his Singapore citizenship per the procedure outlined here https://www.mfa.gov.sg/content/dam/mfa/ ... enship.pdf



May your experience with registering a overseas born male child "too quickly" with ICA for SC be a lesson to others. While there is a limit I believe on the registration period it's a huge decision to make - your essentially committing two years of the parent and sons future life and potentially derailing your child's academic and overseas life for NS.

[PNGMK]

Links with info of varying quality:

http://www.theindependent.sg/how-to-avo ... tizenship/ (mostly a reflection of what we know)

http://sgforums.com/forums/2163/topics/440317 (mostly shit and dribble and incorrect as usual for SGF)

http://singaporedissident.blogspot.sg/2 ... rvice.html (a dissident's view)

MS may have information on renouncing SC before 21 - however it seems set in law to me regardless of the online rumours it is possible.

[Mad Scientist]

My son was born in the UK in 2015. He is a UK citizenship by birth. I registered him for Singapore citizenship after he was born, and as a result of it, he acquired a Singapore passport.
So at this stage he holds this SG PP for three years ? yes
How many times did he use SG PP to travel to SG ?

(a) I read somewhere in some of the posts that it is possible to give up Singapore citizenship when one is young. I can't find anything on this on government websites, as every website says they can't renounce until 21. Do you know if this is possible and how can it be done?
Singapore Gahmen not vindictive , just protecting their own interest, I think kiasi ?
You cannot find some of these on the websites as it is a moving goalpost.
(b) I understand there are some protocols one can follow to seek deferment until 21 then renounce citizenship. However, I note that the family members must also cut off ties with Singapore. In order for the deferment to be successful, do I have to renounce Singapore citizenship too?
Oh , yes !!! Do that please.
How about my daughter?
Your daughter don't have to unless caught red handed. Even that just a fine and have to renounce one passport at that moment. NS liability does not hang on her but SG law does not permit dual citizenship after 21 therefore she is committing an offense if not renounce after 21
The reason I ask this is that my parents and my brother are all settled in Singapore, and I would still like to move back one day regardless of where my son or husband lives in the future.
You cannot have it both ways. This is a ONE WAY STREET. After you renounce, visit Singapore yes you can but regain PR or SG citizenship , good luck to you
If I have to renounce Singapore citizenship, by what age of my son do I have to renounce?
NOW
(c) I read that some people have followed the protocols (e.g. left before 11, did not renew passport, did not get IC) and still not been granted deferment. What could be the reason for this? I just want to make sure I have not broken any of the requirements.
Parent still SG citizen
Male Parent did not complete reservist 13 year cycle or obtain release letter from Mindef
Parent has outstanding fines, debt or issues with the gahmen
Maybe the gahmen just love you to bits and can't let go off you(kidding)
It is 98.999999999% impossible if the parent follow the steps and did not get deferment
1% belongs to white horse so no chance lah
On a serious note, what you read on the forum, the poster did not tell you the truth maybe half a truth
I have encountered this ad nauseum times, once the sh*t is in their face then they start to blame the gahmen,really ?
When I questioned them , mostly what they wrote is not true.
I know this as I followed the protocol , hell , I wrote the protocol and my big boys, now, renounced without any hitch
You have to understand there is no right or wrong .
If you want to do this, there's no turning back
Alternatively, let him do NS if he is smart enough as some of close friends are they complete their uni by 21 overseas, serve the NS and return back to overseas still holding dual passport well illegally of course . That's another kettle of fish to discuss
If your child is under 5, you can renounce but the onus is at the hands of the immigration officer hence this is hit and miss scenario. Some go it , others don't. I don't know the guidelines right now as it is a moving goalpost



Sorry for the long post. Your advice will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[almond2009]

Thank you for the replies and for the patience with me. I understand that there is no choice except for me to renounce my SC first. I will try to answer some of MS' questions below.

My son was born in the UK in 2015. He is a UK citizenship by birth. I registered him for Singapore citizenship after he was born, and as a result of it, he acquired a Singapore passport.
So at this stage he holds this SG PP for three years ? yes
How many times did he use SG PP to travel to SG ?
>> He has had his Singapore passport for 2 years, and used it to travel to SG once.

(a) I read somewhere in some of the posts that it is possible to give up Singapore citizenship when one is young. I can't find anything on this on government websites, as every website says they can't renounce until 21. Do you know if this is possible and how can it be done?
Singapore Gahmen not vindictive , just protecting their own interest, I think kiasi ?
You cannot find some of these on the websites as it is a moving goalpost.
(b) I understand there are some protocols one can follow to seek deferment until 21 then renounce citizenship. However, I note that the family members must also cut off ties with Singapore. In order for the deferment to be successful, do I have to renounce Singapore citizenship too?
Oh , yes !!! Do that please.
>> Unfortunately I can't do it now, because I have a HDB flat and my parents are living in it. They are not going to accept that I want to give up SC so that my son doesn't need to do NS. I understand I have to sell the flat, but it is going to take time to resolve within my family...

How about my daughter?
Your daughter don't have to unless caught red handed. Even that just a fine and have to renounce one passport at that moment. NS liability does not hang on her but SG law does not permit dual citizenship after 21 therefore she is committing an offense if not renounce after 21

The reason I ask this is that my parents and my brother are all settled in Singapore, and I would still like to move back one day regardless of where my son or husband lives in the future.
You cannot have it both ways. This is a ONE WAY STREET. After you renounce, visit Singapore yes you can but regain PR or SG citizenship , good luck to you
If I have to renounce Singapore citizenship, by what age of my son do I have to renounce?
NOW
>> I wish I could do it now. PNGMK's post suggests 18 is the maximum age. Can I leave it to 16 at least? That will give me time to sort out the HDB problem. Are there examples of people who manage to get deferment while their parents renounced SC relatively late?

(c) I read that some people have followed the protocols (e.g. left before 11, did not renew passport, did not get IC) and still not been granted deferment. What could be the reason for this? I just want to make sure I have not broken any of the requirements.
Parent still SG citizen
Male Parent did not complete reservist 13 year cycle or obtain release letter from Mindef
Parent has outstanding fines, debt or issues with the gahmen
Maybe the gahmen just love you to bits and can't let go off you(kidding)
It is 98.999999999% impossible if the parent follow the steps and did not get deferment
1% belongs to white horse so no chance lah
On a serious note, what you read on the forum, the poster did not tell you the truth maybe half a truth
I have encountered this ad nauseum times, once the sh*t is in their face then they start to blame the gahmen,really ?
When I questioned them , mostly what they wrote is not true.
I know this as I followed the protocol , hell , I wrote the protocol and my big boys, now, renounced without any hitch
You have to understand there is no right or wrong .
If you want to do this, there's no turning back
Alternatively, let him do NS if he is smart enough as some of close friends are they complete their uni by 21 overseas, serve the NS and return back to overseas still holding dual passport well illegally of course . That's another kettle of fish to discuss.

If your child is under 5, you can renounce but the onus is at the hands of the immigration officer hence this is hit and miss scenario. Some go it , others don't. I don't know the guidelines right now as it is a moving goalpost
>> It looks like this option is no longer available. Can someone share their experience of this?
Sorry for the long post. Your advice will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Mad Scientist]

[quote="almond2009"]
>> He has had his Singapore passport for 2 years, and used it to travel to SG once.

This door is now closed.
>> Unfortunately I can't do it now, because I have a HDB flat and my parents are living in it. They are not going to accept that I want to give up SC so that my son doesn't need to do NS. I understand I have to sell the flat, but it is going to take time to resolve within my family...

I cannot help you on this. The longer you take , the smaller the window of opportunity it gets. There are many ways to solve this issue. You have to decide what is best for you and your family. If you close many doors and have a tunnel vision then it will be doom and gloom


>> I wish I could do it now. PNGMK's post suggests 18 is the maximum age. Can I leave it to 16 at least? That will give me time to sort out the HDB problem. Are there examples of people who manage to get deferment while their parents renounced SC relatively late?

Sorry, I cannot help you on this , please ask PNGMK to clarify what he meant. Not to my knowledge though

[PNGMK]

>> I wish I could do it now. PNGMK's post suggests 18 is the maximum age. Can I leave it to 16 at least? That will give me time to sort out the HDB problem. Are there examples of people who manage to get deferment while their parents renounced SC relatively late?

Sorry, I cannot help you on this , please ask PNGMK to clarify what he meant. Not to my knowledge though

My reference was based on a cross posting I linked. I personally advocate you follow MS's advice as he has made it through with renunciation for two children and I have not. What MS is saying is you cannot have it both ways; you cannot maintain significant elements of presence in Singapore and at the same time migrate away.

I'm very grateful for MS input on this post. I personally think you should 'try' to renounce your son's SC ASAP. How you do that (personal visit to ICA, via Singapore High Comm, MP letter) I don't know.