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National Service Deferment Procedure in Singapore.

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snowlover
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Re: NS discussion

Postby snowlover » Wed, 07 May 2014 11:01 pm

Thank you for your reply.
I have two boys 13 and 16 in USA, with greencard for 2 years.
I want to know there is any possibility to serve NS after university education?
For my younger son, if he has naturalized to US citizen before he turns 18, is he still need to serve NS in Singapore at the age of 18?

Thanks.

Mad Scientist wrote:
snowlover wrote:Mad Scientist,
I want to know if the boy does not go back to serve NS, after he turned 21 years old, he will denounce Singapore citizenship. What is the consequence? Do you have example? Thank you.
SL


I am clutching on straws with your question and it is hard without you elaborating on your circumstances. Here goes

1. If he is a Singaporean, he cannot renounce his citizenship without serving NS. No two way about it even if he is dead. Age has nothing to do with this be it 21, 18 or whatever. If he is liable , he must serve
If he does nor serve he is listed as a defaulter which carries a mandatory 3 years jail or a fine of $10K or both depending on the age lapse
Parent will be liable too if knowingly assist the child not to serve NS by leaving Singapore without prior approval from ICA or Mindef

There are plenty of examples , I do not know where to begin

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Re: NS discussion

Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 08 May 2014 6:04 pm

[quote="snowlover"]Thank you for your reply.
I have two boys 13 and 16 in USA, with greencard for 2 years.
I want to know there is any possibility to serve NS after university education?
For my younger son, if he has naturalized to US citizen before he turns 18, is he still need to serve NS in Singapore at the age of 18?

Thanks.

First Pop answer is NO. No, pre enlistee is allowed to attend tertiary education without serving the NS first be it local or overseas. The child can study diploma till the age of 23 and still not require to serve NS with valid docs to proof of course. However for tertiary is not allowed.
One may argue that those studying medicine is allowed but that is exception rather than the rule
There are some countries that allows the child to attend tertiary at a young age of 17 under the pre context of Higher Diploma enrolment which was in fact Tertiary Education under its concealment. by the time he completes his 4 years degree, he jumped back to Sg to serve NS. A bit more difficult but I have seen it done by others. It is all about proper documentation to satisfy the "needy"
Second Pop answer is as follows
He needs to apply Exit Permit pronto as he is already 13 and he has only three months from his DOB to apply one.
Then on apply for Deferment of NS pending renounciation at the age of 21.
Have a read on this as I have posted this procedure countless time

The question I would ask you are
if your children has been living in the land of the free,
Do you want them to come to SG in foreseeable future or
Do they have any attachment to SG or
Will they come back here to work in SG
Valid questions where you can never find the answers. Whichever way you choose thick or thin you have to ride it out.




1.
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Re: NS discussion

Postby snowlover » Sat, 10 May 2014 1:32 am

MS: Thank you for your information.

The question I would ask you are
if your children has been living in the land of the free,
==>My family moved to US 4 years ago, when they were 9 and 12.

Do you want them to come to SG in foreseeable future or
==>not sure. Oldest son is working there after NS.

Do they have any attachment to SG or
==>oldest brother only. HDB house is there.

Will they come back here to work in SG
==> not sure. They love SG, but want to go to college with their current classmates when turning 18.

Valid questions where you can never find the answers. Whichever way you choose thick or thin you have to ride it out.
==>If one of the parents keep Singapore citizenship, youngest also have to do NS?

Thank you for your help.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 10 May 2014 1:38 pm

You are missing the whole plot on this issue

1. If you do not want your youngest to do NS. Your whole family unit must be holding foreign citizenship not PR .
2. Whether you renounce or not or one single parent holding SG IC will not have any consequence on your youngest doing NS. The fact remains he has to do unless he apply for deferment pending renouncing SG citizenship at 21. If he does not hold foreign citizenship then he must do NS unless for some reason he is found to be medically unfit when doing the pre enlistment medical check up at 16 years of age or he turns green when he becomes angry.
3.You are holding HDB flat and your children likes it here while visiting. Hence why burn that bridge if there is some much attachment to SG
4. Tertiary education is the bane of all parents when NS issue is brought up. You are not the first nor the last one that is put in this quandary.If there are so many things that you are unsure, then NS will be the way to go then after that go to college.
5. You cannot bake the cake and eat it yourself.It ain't gonna happen.
6. You cannot renounce SG citizenship without having another one as you will be found stateless
7. The facts remain from your fact finding mission that your children has to do NS. There are too many loose end that has not been resolve which leaves too many uncertain prospect in the future.
8. Many of us including myself did this when our children are at a younger age and we severe all ties with SG completely but we knew that it comes with a price. This gamble you have to take be it sweet or sour as no one knows what the future lies
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Postby jaysufc23 » Sat, 10 May 2014 7:59 pm

Everyone on this thread, do you honestly think that "National Service" in Singapore is justified? Americans, why do you want to subject your child to such torture in Singapore's military, where there is absolutely no professionalism at all, but bullying and intimidation are extremely common?

{Self aggrandizement removed by moderator} . I urge all Americans to withdraw your son from NS in Singapore and refuse to serve the Singapore military.

Thanks,
Jay.

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Postby AngMoG » Sat, 10 May 2014 8:53 pm

jaysufc23 wrote:Everyone on this thread, do you honestly think that "National Service" in Singapore is justified? Americans, why do you want to subject your child to such torture in Singapore's military, where there is absolutely no professionalism at all, but bullying and intimidation are extremely common?

{Self aggrandizement removed by moderator} . I urge all Americans to withdraw your son from NS in Singapore and refuse to serve the Singapore military.

Thanks,
Jay.


Justified or not, currently it is the law. And while there are possibilities to get around NS for the child, there are consequences whichever path is chosen. It all depends on what your and your children's future plans are.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 10 May 2014 11:07 pm

Hey Jay. Grow Up and grow a pair, wuss.

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Postby nanana » Sun, 11 May 2014 2:16 am

Jay, perhaps what doesn't kill you will make you stronger?Just imagine in a real life situation, if you are being caught by the enemy, do you think the enemy will treat you like a king? I suppose the bully and punishment are just part of the training. To train you to be both physically and mentally tough.

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Postby snowlover » Sun, 11 May 2014 3:41 am

MS:
From you post, I understood that
a. If my 13 years old son naturalized at his age of 16 (2017), he doesn't need to do NS, no matter one or both parents renounce SG citizen.

b. My 16 years old has no choice, he has to serve NS when he turns 18 (2016), as he's still a SG citizen.

c. If he insists not to go back to do NS at 18 years old (2016), even if he naturalized in his age of 19 (2017), he still face some problem (such as bond be taken? what else punishments?) when he goes to renounce at his age of 21?

Your 1. and 2. seems a little bit conflicted.

Thanks.

[quote="Mad Scientist"]You are missing the whole plot on this issue

1. If you do not want your youngest to do NS. Your whole family unit must be holding foreign citizenship not PR .

2. Whether you renounce or not or one single parent holding SG IC will not have any consequence on your youngest doing NS. The fact remains he has to do unless he apply for deferment pending renouncing SG citizenship at 21. If he does not hold foreign citizenship then he must do NS unless for some reason he is found to be medically unfit when doing the pre enlistment medical check up at 16 years of age or he turns green when he becomes angry.

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Postby AngMoG » Sun, 11 May 2014 10:45 am

snowlover wrote:MS:
From you post, I understood that
a. If my 13 years old son naturalized at his age of 16 (2017), he doesn't need to do NS, no matter one or both parents renounce SG citizen.

b. My 16 years old has no choice, he has to serve NS when he turns 18 (2016), as he's still a SG citizen.

c. If he insists not to go back to do NS at 18 years old (2016), even if he naturalized in his age of 19 (2017), he still face some problem (such as bond be taken? what else punishments?) when he goes to renounce at his age of 21?

Your 1. and 2. seems a little bit conflicted.

Thanks.

Mad Scientist wrote:You are missing the whole plot on this issue

1. If you do not want your youngest to do NS. Your whole family unit must be holding foreign citizenship not PR .

2. Whether you renounce or not or one single parent holding SG IC will not have any consequence on your youngest doing NS. The fact remains he has to do unless he apply for deferment pending renouncing SG citizenship at 21. If he does not hold foreign citizenship then he must do NS unless for some reason he is found to be medically unfit when doing the pre enlistment medical check up at 16 years of age or he turns green when he becomes angry.


I think you forget one important point: The renunciation of your son's SG citizenship has to be accepted by the SG gov in order for him to to escape NS. And according to advice given on this forum before, they may not accept it if it is not the whole family renouncing at the same time. If they don't, he still has to do NS or never return to SG (not even in transit!). And the government may keep the bond at that time as well.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 11 May 2014 1:37 pm

snowlover wrote:MS:
From you post, I understood that
a. If my 13 years old son naturalized at his age of 16 (2017), he doesn't need to do NS, no matter one or both parents renounce SG citizen.

Wrong. renunciation process includes parent renounce SG citizen prior to child renunciation. Mindef needs to see that you have no ties in SG before approval to defer child pending renunciation at 21. Have you not read my other posts on the steps to do this process ?

b. My 16 years old has no choice, he has to serve NS when he turns 18 (2016), as he's still a SG citizen.

Yes

c. If he insists not to go back to do NS at 18 years old (2016), even if he naturalized in his age of 19 (2017), he still face some problem (such as bond be taken? what else punishments?) when he goes to renounce at his age of 21?

If Mindef require you to pose bond and child refuse to serve, bond will be forfeited but NS liabilities still hangs over him. Fine and jail term will be the next course of action

Your 1. and 2. seems a little bit conflicted.

You need to read all my postings on this issue as you seems not able to grasp what I am trying to convey. As much as I want to help you, why don;t you help yourself by reading all my posts before you pose me questions. Many who seeks answers here has enough brain juice to grasp what I have posted before.
If you still cannot comprehend then ask me again


Thanks.

Mad Scientist wrote:You are missing the whole plot on this issue

1. If you do not want your youngest to do NS. Your whole family unit must be holding foreign citizenship not PR .

2. Whether you renounce or not or one single parent holding SG IC will not have any consequence on your youngest doing NS. The fact remains he has to do unless he apply for deferment pending renouncing SG citizenship at 21. If he does not hold foreign citizenship then he must do NS unless for some reason he is found to be medically unfit when doing the pre enlistment medical check up at 16 years of age or he turns green when he becomes angry.
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Postby snowlover » Mon, 12 May 2014 10:48 am

Dear MS,

I will read all this 26 pages later. But by searching "Steps of renunciation", I can not find anything to read. Can you give me some links?

I still want to know for my 13 years old, even if he got US citizenship at 2017, SG allows foreigner to do NS?

Thank you.

[quote="Mad Scientist"][quote="snowlover"]MS:
From you post, I understood that
a. If my 13 years old son naturalized at his age of 16 (2017), he doesn't need to do NS, no matter one or both parents renounce SG citizen.

Wrong. renunciation process includes parent renounce SG citizen prior to child renunciation. Mindef needs to see that you have no ties in SG before approval to defer child pending renunciation at 21. Have you not read my other posts on the steps to do this process ?

b. My 16 years old has no choice, he has to serve NS when he turns 18 (2016), as he's still a SG citizen.

Yes

c. If he insists not to go back to do NS at 18 years old (2016), even if he naturalized in his age of 19 (2017), he still face some problem (such as bond be taken? what else punishments?) when he goes to renounce at his age of 21?

If Mindef require you to pose bond and child refuse to serve, bond will be forfeited but NS liabilities still hangs over him. Fine and jail term will be the next course of action

Your 1. and 2. seems a little bit conflicted.

You need to read all my postings on this issue as you seems not able to grasp what I am trying to convey. As much as I want to help you, why don;t you help yourself by reading all my posts before you pose me questions. Many who seeks answers here has enough brain juice to grasp what I have posted before.
If you still cannot comprehend then ask me again


Thanks.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 12 May 2014 7:46 pm

Ok I think you are extremely confuse. I will give you point by point on how these pans out.
If you migrate to another foreign country with your sons before the age of 11 and plan to skip NS by renouncing SG citizenship these are the steps

1. Child will only get 2 years SG PP validity on a 5 years valid PP before the age of 11 prior leaving SG
2. At the turn of 13, child needs to return to SG or go to SG Mission to extend SG PP validity.
3. Apply Exit Permit for One Year 364 days for child and no bond is required. Continue doing this till 16 DOB
4. At the same time FAMILY UNIT applies for Foreign citizenship the minute it is allowed to do so as the time frame to defer ends when child reaches 16.Hence you need to count backwards.
5. Once EP is approved at 13, submit application to defer pending renunciation at 21 to Mindef.
6. Submit proof if family already has a foreign citizenship or the foreign internal department has received your family application pending approval to Mindef. This is vital as it shows that you want to sever all ties with SG
7. Concurrently sell your HDB house. Pay all debt, fines, taxes whatever tangible that belongs to the SG Coffer. You must be squeaky clean
8. It will takes about 2 months to submit by snail mail and another month to get it approve if
a) you already gained foreign citizenship
but if you are in the process
a) as long as it is before the child 16 DOB and you are granted foreign citizenship, you will be approve to defer. It will take about 6 months for clarification with foreign agencies on your application
9. Once child is granted approval defer, another set of docs will be attached for submission to Mindef.
10. At this stage it will take another month to grant an Exit Permit for child till 16 and another Permit for child till 21.
11. Once reached 21 you are required to renounce SG citizenship at any SG Embassy or ICA
12. If you fail, your SG citizenship will be removed from you at 23
13. Tertiary education is not allowed be it local or foreign before serving NS.
14. If child is still studying formal education up to diploma in foreign land, a bond of $75K minimum or the higher income of one parent of more than $75K if proven by IRAS or two living sureties which is one will be the parent and another a living relative in SG to ensure child will return to SG once he completes his education. It comes with a fine for the sureties if things turns to custard
15. At 16 DOB , child will undergo medical checkup, by then if your deferment is approved till 21, an EP will be required to register and this medical check up is not required
16. At 18, child will serve 2 years or 1 yr 7 months depending on his physical fitness
17.During this time even if you are granted approval to defer you can always rescind and serve SG NS

Now,
a)SG only allows Single Citizenship hence the lengthy procedure as you cannot becoming stateless in this world
b)If child holds foreign citizenship, he is still require to serve NS namely his birth right is SG and SG Citizenship super seed foreign ones that was acquired later as you are considered naturalised foreign national.
c)At 21 he needs to decide to forego one or the other citizenship
d) If he so chooses to remain with SG citizenship then he needs to serve NS and renounce foreign citizenship as proof as per clause (a)
e) There are foreign countries such as US, OZ, Sweden, NZ, UK which allows one to renounce these countries citizenship for the sole purpose to serving the NS in SG. Based on different age limitation of 27, 33, 30 and 35, you can regain these citizenship once you renounce at 21. An immigration lawyer should be able to assist you on this
f)If child refuses to return, bond will be forfeited or sureties will be fined but that does not omit his liabilities of NS duties
h) He cannot renounce his SG citizenship without serving the NS
i) It is wise for those planning to do this leaves SG as early as possible
j) Implications of refusal are
arrest during transit
Employment in SG
Fines and jail


I will talk about Re entry Permit for those born overseas by SG parent when time permitted
Does this answer all of your problems?
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Postby snowlover » Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34 am

Thank you very much, MS.

In my case, my oldest son has no US greencard, will keep SG IC. Is he considered as part of family? If yes, my youngest son will have to do NS also?

And if we renounced SG citizen, can will enter SG with US passport as normal US citizen for 90 days visa-free-visiting?

Thank you again.

Mad Scientist wrote:
4. At the same time FAMILY UNIT applies for Foreign citizenship the minute it is allowed to do so as the time frame to defer ends when child reaches 16.Hence you need to count backwards.

Does this answer all of your problems?

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Postby snowlover » Wed, 14 May 2014 10:41 am

Jay,

I really think to train those young men who will renounce his SG citizenship is great waste for SG.
Who can change government policy? Those kids like to go back to work in SG, why should stop them? great loss for the country! Taiwan seems have a better policy on this.

Thanks for your reply.

jaysufc23 wrote:Everyone on this thread, do you honestly think that "National Service" in Singapore is justified? Americans, why do you want to subject your child to such torture in Singapore's military, where there is absolutely no professionalism at all, but bullying and intimidation are extremely common?

{Self aggrandizement removed by moderator} . I urge all Americans to withdraw your son from NS in Singapore and refuse to serve the Singapore military.

Thanks,
Jay.


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