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Re: Questions about NS Requirement

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 09 Jan 2011 5:40 pm

harps4heartlanders wrote:I hope someone can help me.... I have a friend who's Singaporean but married a US citizen. Their 3 sons were born in Singapore, but acquired American citizenship almost immediately. The ages of their sons are: 12, 10 and 8. They all attended public schools in Singapore, till the eldest boy completed his Pr 6 and got his PSLE results. While waiting for the results, the mother took her 3 sons to the States, with no intention of coming back to Singapore.

Question: Do the boys have to serve NS when they reach 18? Can they ever come back to Singapore for social visits during the intervening years before they turn 18? Do they need to furnish a bond?

Thanks.

Regards


Please read this thread in it's entirety sticky thread. Unless you follow protocol, yes they do have to do NS. Otherwise, they will be arrested if they try to enter the country at any point in the future.

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Postby elfin » Tue, 08 Feb 2011 1:24 pm

Hi

I've read this thread with interested. Our situation is unusual in that we are both British and our son is Singaporean (adopted in Singapore). He also now has British citizenship.

We plan to leave Singapore in the next couple of years (long before our son is 13). If we follow the protocol above in notifying the authorities what do you think the chances are of our son being able to defer NS until he can renounce his Singaporean citizenship? We will be going to live in Europe and will also be applying for citizenship in the country we are going to live in. We do not intend to return to live in Singapore, but obviously do not want to blow his chances of coming back to visit on holiday in the future.

We do not intend to use his Singaporean passport once we have left here and will not be renewing it. He does not have an IC and we will not be applying for one. He has not benefited from the Singaporean school system whilst here either.

Any help/advice would be gratefully received!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 08 Feb 2011 4:55 pm

[quote="elfin"]Hi

I've read this thread with interested. Our situation is unusual in that we are both British and our son is Singaporean (adopted in Singapore). He also now has British citizenship.

It does not matter if he is adopted or not. Once he is a Sger/SPR, he is binded by the NS guidelines.

We plan to leave Singapore in the next couple of years (long before our son is 13). If we follow the protocol above in notifying the authorities what do you think the chances are of our son being able to defer NS until he can renounce his Singaporean citizenship?

There is an excellent thread posted by Kraikk about the timeline and the guideline on how and what you have to do. Read it up. If you follow that to the T, yes , he will definitely able to defer NS till 21 prior to renounciation

We will be going to live in Europe and will also be applying for citizenship in the country we are going to live in. We do not intend to return to live in Singapore, but obviously do not want to blow his chances of coming back to visit on holiday in the future.

If the child and yourself follow it up closely, and renounce, to visit SG will never be an issue. To work or gain employment no chance, to regain SG citizen impossible

We do not intend to use his Singaporean passport once we have left here and will not be renewing it.

Good , do not renew

He does not have an IC and we will not be applying for one.

Do not apply for IC even if a letter from ICA requesting you to apply.

He has not benefited from the Singaporean school system whilst here either.

That really depends at the age he left SG
Any help/advice would be gratefully received!

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Postby elfin » Tue, 29 Mar 2011 4:42 pm

Many thanks for the useful reply Mad Scientist. Things have changed a little and we are now leaving Singapore this year when our son will be 3 years old. I'm hoping if we follow all the steps and keep up to date with changes that we will be able to defer NS until he can renounce his Citizenship.

One query that I do have is regarding the Right of Entry stamp. We would only be coming back to Singapore for short stop-overs in the future so he will be able to enter as a visitor on his British passport. Is there any reason for us to get the Right of Entry stamp on his British passport - we will not be back here for extended stays again. I'm asking as I'm not sure if I've missed something on this - to me I could argue that getting the Right of Entry stamp is another 'benefit of being Singaporean' so therefore I would want to avoid it.

Thanks again.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 29 Mar 2011 4:54 pm

elfin wrote:
One query that I do have is regarding the Right of Entry stamp. We would only be coming back to Singapore for short stop-overs in the future so he will be able to enter as a visitor on his British passport. Is there any reason for us to get the Right of Entry stamp on his British passport - we will not be back here for extended stays again. I'm asking as I'm not sure if I've missed something on this - to me I could argue that getting the Right of Entry stamp is another 'benefit of being Singaporean' so therefore I would want to avoid it.

Thanks again.


The right of entry stamp is an avenue or privilege of children born overseas from Singapore Descent who holds dual citizenship. That stamp has a similar function to SG PP if he does not hold any SG PP. With that right of entry stamp, the child can live and study here like any locals minus the SG PP.
If you intend NOT to extend your stay more than a Social Visit then you do not need that. The initial right of stamp has to be done at the 7th floor of ICA.
If you intend to renounce his SG citizenship without going thru the tedious stages of Exit Permit and the rest, do it now at CAB ICA. Apply for renounce now while he is young, ICA will review the case on its merit
Last edited by Mad Scientist on Tue, 29 Mar 2011 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby elfin » Tue, 29 Mar 2011 4:59 pm

That was quick! Thanks for the clarification on that.

I had assumed that we had to do the exit permit/deferment etc... Can we do it immediately? I somehow did not come across that in my research so far.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 29 Mar 2011 5:06 pm

elfin wrote:That was quick! Thanks for the clarification on that.

I had assumed that we had to do the exit permit/deferment etc... Can we do it immediately? I somehow did not come across that in my research so far.


I reedit my post as I think your adopted child has a SG PP. It changes slightly on the merits of your case if you wish to renounce his SG PP now.
There is one case that I helped child was under 5 yrs old but holds dual citizenship as child was born overseas. Not similar to you BUT DAD regretted taking up SG citizenship . He renounced child citizenship at the child age of 5 and ICA accepted. You can try this. It does not hurt
If that fails, you will have to wait till he is 13 to register him for EP, you cannot do it now. Meantime travel using British PP. Do not use or renew the SG PP. I foresee that your son will be on a one way street with no return . So do not bother to renew. Toss it overboard
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Postby elfin » Wed, 30 Mar 2011 8:41 am

Thanks for that. So you think we may stand a chance then? Do you have any contacts at ICA - it's hard to get an individual contact from their website. I'll try to call them later today as well.

If we do have to go through the whole deferment process, then I'm planning to write to ICA notifying them of my son's departure from Singapore and our new address and will also then mention our intention to defer NS & renounce citizenship. Do you think this should be done before we leave or once we are overseas?

I appreciate your help!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 30 Mar 2011 9:17 am

elfin wrote:Thanks for that. So you think we may stand a chance then? Do you have any contacts at ICA - it's hard to get an individual contact from their website. I'll try to call them later today as well.

SY Pang is the supervisor and Steve Chew . Citizen Advise Bureau ICA. E-mail first then go from there

If we do have to go through the whole deferment process, then I'm planning to write to ICA notifying them of my son's departure from Singapore and our new address and will also then mention our intention to defer NS & renounce citizenship. Do you think this should be done before we leave or once we are overseas?

Do it overseas. Look up in the ICA website for change of address. Download it and filled it up and return by fax will do for acknowledgement. MOE will come after him when he is at schooling age. Do not be cowed by the letter you will receive. Just fill it up and reply by fax stating overseas schooling etc..
If the first part fail , yes, do it at the same time with change of address but reply via snail mail attn to person above. Attached all necessary documents like foreign citizenship, yours and spouse , letter from school if schooling . Justice of Peace or if you have the means notorise it.
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I appreciate your help!
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Return of Singapore Passport / Renuciation Intention Letter

Postby PHK » Thu, 07 Apr 2011 6:00 pm

Folks,

I have been off this web site for a while but I am pleased to come back and see the excellent work that people like SundayMorningStaple and MadScientist continue to do...

Now, I also have a US born son with US Passport + Right of Entry stamp and a Singapore Passport that will expire around his 10th birthday (we will not renew). Since we no longer use the valid Singapore Passport, I thought at his current age of 6 years and 9 months we should return it to ICA. However, upon submitting a ICA feedback form, I was informed via email, and phone call follow-up, by a Mr Salleh Bin Masjor in ICA Passport Division that I can not return it to have it cancelled or surrenderd. When I asked him what would happen if I just mailed it in with a cover letter advising that I wanted it cancelled, he advised me that ICA would simply mail it back to me not canceled and indicating the same as what he advises. Anybody have any experience with this...

So now with a 6 years 9 months old boy, we plan on being out of Singapore within a few years, should I send in the "Intention to renounce letter" now while he is still very young or is it safer to wait until we actually leave Singapore? From what I read from MadScientist above, we best wait until we are out of Singapore I guess, just wish there was a way to let them know but I guess they can make things difficult for us while we are still here...

Sure would like to know if anybody has advice for us, other than what I already know and have posted in a list on this site, as I already see so much new matierial that I was unaware of since I last visited this forumn.... thank you for your time!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 2:14 am

PHK wrote:Folks,

So now with a 6 years 9 months old boy, we plan on being out of Singapore within a few years, should I send in the "Intention to renounce letter" now while he is still very young or is it safer to wait until we actually leave Singapore? From what I read from MadScientist above, we best wait until we are out of Singapore I guess, just wish there was a way to let them know but I guess they can make things difficult for us while we are still here...


@ PHK ; Welcome Back !!

If you are in SG then the advise you got is correct. You should not apply for him SG PP if you got Right of Entry Stamp on his US PP. Apply Dual Citizenship does not necessarily requires you to apply for SG PP as his US PP with the Right of Entry Stamp is good as gold to stay , live and educate here.

If the whole family unit has renounce SG citizenship and acquires foreign ones, yes , you can do that BUT from my evidence before the age of 8. Once it reaches the pinnacle of 11, you have to follow the EP route till 21 and state intention to renounce when you apply EP at 13
ICA views renunciation application of minor on its own family entirety so you have to decide when to leave before you can proceed
I do not know of anyone that has dual ciitzenship and renounce SG citizenship locally. The usual practise is out of the country
You have to renounce yours and wife, sell your HDB home , clear all income tax before you can proceed with your child. There are cases where it has been rejected for reason unknown but my gut feeling is the parents did not renounce theirs hence it is being rejected. As usual practise CMPB/Mindef/ICA do not reveal reasons for rejection although child is out of country before age of 11
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Re: Return of Singapore Passport / Renuciation Intention Let

Postby OkLah » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 7:26 am

PHK, just courier your son's Sg passport from overseas with a cover letter stating intent to renounce and enclosing evidence of you and your spouse renunciation of Sg citizenship and/or PR. That was what I did. Got a reply letter back from Ms Pang stating that she had passed the passports to the Passports Unit 'for their necessary action'. I had at first tried to return my sons' passports in person at ICA but was given the run around and finally a Malay lady officer handed the passports back to me and told me that they do not accept return of Singapore passports for purposes other than renunciation. She advised me to just keep them and let them expire if we were not going to use them again.
PHK wrote:Folks,

I have been off this web site for a while but I am pleased to come back and see the excellent work that people like SundayMorningStaple and MadScientist continue to do...

Now, I also have a US born son with US Passport + Right of Entry stamp and a Singapore Passport that will expire around his 10th birthday (we will not renew). Since we no longer use the valid Singapore Passport, I thought at his current age of 6 years and 9 months we should return it to ICA. However, upon submitting a ICA feedback form, I was informed via email, and phone call follow-up, by a Mr Salleh Bin Masjor in ICA Passport Division that I can not return it to have it cancelled or surrenderd. When I asked him what would happen if I just mailed it in with a cover letter advising that I wanted it cancelled, he advised me that ICA would simply mail it back to me not canceled and indicating the same as what he advises. Anybody have any experience with this...

So now with a 6 years 9 months old boy, we plan on being out of Singapore within a few years, should I send in the "Intention to renounce letter" now while he is still very young or is it safer to wait until we actually leave Singapore? From what I read from MadScientist above, we best wait until we are out of Singapore I guess, just wish there was a way to let them know but I guess they can make things difficult for us while we are still here...

Sure would like to know if anybody has advice for us, other than what I already know and have posted in a list on this site, as I already see so much new matierial that I was unaware of since I last visited this forumn.... thank you for your time!

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Postby PHK » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 1:28 pm

Thank you very much Mad Scientist and OkLah!

The work you folks do is really appreciated, no one wants to break the law, it's just that with NS the law is not crystal clear and has lots of bobby traps. Example, you are expected to apply for an Exit Permit (EP) even though you have already left... and its your fault if you did not apply even though the law may have gone into effect only after you left.

Based on the advisory from OkLah, I might then just courier both his original Citizenship Certificate and Passport "for appropriate action" with the "intention to renounce letter" before we proceed through the mine filed once we leave Singapore. I think we also best clear out our heard earned CFP before we send them the notice discussed.

Thank you again for your time and assistance.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 2:29 pm

PHK wrote:Thank you very much Mad Scientist and OkLah!

The work you folks do is really appreciated, no one wants to break the law, it's just that with NS the law is not crystal clear and has lots of bobby traps. Example, you are expected to apply for an Exit Permit (EP) even though you have already left... and its your fault if you did not apply even though the law may have gone into effect only after you left.


@ PHK ; It is unfortunate turn of event that has happened to you before. Unfortunately I was not here to assist you back then. I have boys too (BIG BOYS) I have gone thru what you are about to got through.
It is not a minefield if you understand dos and don't.
Anyway I have posted many information for readers to read and absorb and learned from it. These has been gathered from my own accounts, my close friends and from my previous life.
You should be fine
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Postby Petales Soufflez! » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 8:30 am

As I have posted in an earlier thread, I have applied, for my boy the minute he turned 13, for deferment from NS with intention to renounce SG citizenship at the age of 21 and it has kindly been accepted. An exit permit has been posted to me with no bond requested. I have moved to another country since and my son has changed his foreign passport and added a surname on it - but CMPB said not to worry and no need to send them new info (except new address). That is to say that I disagree with some that they are out there trying to collect our foreign details etc from us.

They have also never tried to obtain my boy's name etc when I was soliciting information via email from their office. The information is only required when you send in your application. As long as you follow the general guidelines, things will be fine. And of course like many said, best no IC, passport, public school and hospitals before the age of 9. My boy has never had a SG IC, passport etc. If you ticked any of the boxes even if you say lived overseas with no intention of coming back and yet kept a SG passport for the child - then it is a mistake that you will have to assume. Can't have butter and money for the butter as we would say in French.

I do not understand this bit though about parents having to renounce their SG citizenship to improve chances for the son's deferment from NS being approved. I told CMPB that I have no intention of renouncing my own SG citizenship as I plan to return home myself one day. Son grows up and will have his own life, what has that got to do with me? I am invited to overseas Singaporean events whether in Europe or in China and have always turned up with my entirely foreign family and they have always welcomed us with open arms. I have no doubt though that boy will not be able to work in Singapore after renouncing Singapore citizenship in the future, but we know about the gahmen's occasional pettiness and long memory. See it from their point of view, you chose to go somewhere else, you must think it's better elsewhere. You normally wouldn't take back a cheating spouse either, he has to wash his clothes in his new home. I only knock my head when I tell myself that I could have spared my boy this if I hadn't gotten him Singapore citizenship in the first place - but I had good intentions then and hadn't thought about NS before. Besides, he is half Singaporean and in principle I had wanted it reflected in his documents.

If anyone has concrete information about SG changing its laws and allowing dual citizenship say after boy has performed NS in the coming years, please inform me. My son is actually quite keen to do his NS if he can keep both his SG and French citizenships. I am the one choosing his citizenships for him at the moment fearing that he will not survive in SG not having lived and studied in the country. But he feels both French and Singaporean so we hope that this could be reflected in his citizenship documents.
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