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Gilly
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Postby Gilly » Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:53 pm

I dont think people actually get it.

Nobody's trying to exclude local people from daily life, the objective is to dedicate a small amount of time to people in a similar situation. Meet and hangout with some likeminded people. Not all the time, but sometimes yes, that's what i want.

Call it a surrogate family. that's what made life better for me in my last expat life, and I'm looking for the same here in Sinagpore, is athat a bad thing?

When you don't have your family here, it's not too much to askis it? And it seems a few people could do with the sanity check.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:46 pm

Frankly, the whole thing smacks of elitism.

Sorry, but having been here through a quarter of a century, seen thousands of expats come and go across 4 recessions, I feel that the stamina of today's expat is not much. I have to wonder why some of them actually took up an expat posting at all if they cannot be away from family and friends and it effects their whole demeanor that way. It's almost like the old Colonial mentality that affected most Brits in the 50's & 60's here. Bugger off if you are local. But they were able to deal with it without getting all weepy like this bunch today (fortunately not all are like that however) Frankly I find that rather demeaning to the locals and rather bigoted from the expats.

I'm not meaning to really diss anybody here in this discussion but I find that the level of expats that I'm seeing now days are a far cry from what were here before. A lot of the "locals" on this board have far more education and common sense that a good portion of the Expats here who are always whinging. Why whinge, if you ain't got the cojones, I would have to agree with the phrase "don't let the door hit you in the butt at the departure gate at Changi". Being an expat means having the ability to adapt to whatever the world can throw at you and not only survive but thrive. I'm not seeing much of that here.

You have a board here that you can whinge on. You don't need a private thread or a password thread. Nobody makes you read the posts that are obviously from local posters. You can just skim over them. If you ignore a troll without answering them, they will tire and soon leave. Or you cn bait them like I often do! :) You cannot tell me, from what I've read so far, that you would welcome a labourer from Bangladesh who cleans up the HDB estates here or the PRC Shipyard worker here is going to be given the same welcome as you "definition" of expat. These are guys who have expatriated to earn a living just like you. Except they left not only their friends at home but their wives and children and parents at home as well. For up to 24 months at a time. Will you welcome them into your "exclusive" fold willingly? I seriously doubt it. Therefore I find the whole thing rather sad if you want my opinion. If you don't want it, typical me, you get it anyway....... :P

Oh, as an afterthough, Even the American Club and The British Club have local members as well. As do all the other nationalistically oriented clubs in Singapore.

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Postby EADG » Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:50 pm

you know, I kinda see what you mean, the thread has waxed wishy-washy in a few places, but when I first saw it I found it somewhat refreshing without being whing-y, I think the original intention was sound

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Frankly, the whole thing smacks of elitism.

Sorry, but having been here through a quarter of a century, seen thousands of expats come and go across 4 recessions, I feel that the stamina of today's expat is not much. I have to wonder why some of them actually took up an expat posting at all if they cannot be away from family and friends and it effects their whole demeanor that way. It's almost like the old Colonial mentality that affected most Brits in the 50's & 60's here. Bugger off if you are local. But they were able to deal with it without getting all weepy like this bunch today (fortunately not all are like that however) Frankly I find that rather demeaning to the locals and rather bigoted from the expats.
Ape Shall Not Kill Ape

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Gilly
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Postby Gilly » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:09 am

And it's a fair opinion I guess sms. But you're wide of the mark.

No street cleaner, whatever his or her nationality would join a bunch of 'professional expats' looking for some freindly banter in Harry's bar, where beer is 12 quid a go.

So that is a non-ergument fella. :roll:

Do you call it elitism when a Chinese family want to live in Chinatown? Or an Indian that wants to live in Little India, or a jew in the Jewish quarter, it happens all over the world, where people gravitate to their own type.

This effort isn't even is exclusive, it's just expats! To share expat feelings, experiences and observations.

It's not a permanent decision not to mix it with locals. It's just an expat club where, as I said, now and again people with similar experienmces can meet up and have interesting conversation, or god forbid...have some fun with other expats.

In another thread, I'm looking for badminton mates.....not expats, just badminton players aged 30-40. I don't care if they are Doctors or street cleaners, millionaires or unemployed, just guys who can play badminton.

No, its not open to 17 yr old girls, or squash players who have never played badminton. Is that ageist, sexist or elitist too?

what about the non-smoking, non drinkers? Are they elitist in their request for meeting likeminded people?

So sms, are you coming this saturday? :cool:

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:10 am

Like most threads........ :wink:

They always degenerate unless they are in the Strictly Speaking forum which, is heavily moderated for serious discussion. Unfortunately, a "crying in our beer" thread won't really fit there I don't think.

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Postby shionomisaki_diver » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 2:13 am

Gilly wrote:No street cleaner, whatever his or her nationality would join a bunch of 'professional expats' looking for some freindly banter in Harry's bar, where beer is 12 quid a go...


So will a Japanese who cleans windows for a living and who is looking 'for some freindly banter in Harry's bar' be welcomed into your 'expat' meet-up/thread?

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Keep it going...

Postby notwavingdrowning » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 6:47 am

I have a wonderful new friend who has experienced the same growing pains I have settling in here...She was born is Asia to Asian parents but migrated to Australia when she was 2...

When I talk to her on the phone I hear an "Aussie" surfer girl whose accent is more Aussie than mine....In person too- I do not notice she is any different to me- I think she is gorgeous and do not notice her race.

She is married to a local who has spent his teens and early 20's in Australia as well..he too expresses similar issues to us whinging expats...

She expressed concern at coming to this gathering this Saturday...This pains me as she is the most amazing girl and I want her there!

They are as expat as the rest of us- has the same problems we have...

This is not a racist or elitist club...It is a club for people (generally) expats who want a safe place to be amongst other people.

The only difference to this club is that you are allowed to complain about the weather, the funny milk and the locals that walk backwards into you with their shopping trolleys at cold storage.

No hidden agendas and all are welcome. Please lets not make this into something it is not [-X
notwavingdrowning...is back from the Ashram and looking for a new career.

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Re: Keep it going...

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 7:07 am

notwavingdrowning wrote:
This is not a racist or elitist club...It is a club for people (generally) expats who want a safe place to be amongst other people.

The only difference to this club is that you are allowed to complain about the weather, the funny milk and the locals that walk backwards into you with their shopping trolleys at cold storage.

No hidden agendas and all are welcome. Please lets not make this into something it is not [-X


What is different then than what is already here on this board? Based on the text above, you are discribing the whole forum. What you forgot was to add you want to be able to whinge & cry without those who are being dissed having a counter-argument. Nah. Never gonna happen and I wouldn't be a part of something like that. I would never exclude my hosts as I happen to be a guest in their country at the pleasure of their government. One would do well to realize that.

From my way of seeing things it is pretty xenophobic as you are deliberately saying it's not okay for a Singaporean who may well have more expat experience than you do, have a higher education level than you do, makes more money than you do, and may well not like a lot of local "traits" either but because their passport is Red and from Singapore they will be excluded from the discussion as you want a place for the sole reason to bash their country or them? Have I got it right now? :o

How about the Batchelor's & Masters Degree holders I have working for me? They are living 2 to a room (but not in a dormitory) but they are working as pest control worker for 1.8k/mo on "S" passes. Would they be welcome? Their only problem is that they are Burmese. Their families probably have more money than you do because they are well placed at home. But I doubt that they would be welcome either. The more you try to convince the worse sounding it sounds. And frankly, to the locals reading this thread, I apologize for our xenophobic guests here. If you want a "safe" place then go home. The expat life is not for you. I seriously mean than without any sarcasm intended, but with the reality of understanding what expat life is in general.

What you are asking for on a public forum is a place where you can trash the locals without their ability of defending themselves and you can cry to ones heart's content. Others will be welcome only if they share the same level of resentment and disdain towards the locals. Am I getting closer? :roll:

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Postby maneo » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 7:36 am

^ While I would normally not hesitate to point out the ungraciousness of complaining guests, those that are trailing spouses like notwavingdrowning have a more problematic situation. Their "choice" to be in SG is not so simple.

Give them a break.
Let them vent.

Maybe you could set up a parallel post for "happy expats" and locals to complain about the complaining guests.
You could "seed" it with those that are "out of place" according to NWD's ground rules.

Both could compete to see which one gets longer faster.
8-)

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Dumb rich whitey

Postby notwavingdrowning » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 8:28 am

Maneo, thank you for defending this...I am NO match for you SMS...I am not eloquent enough to even begin to defend myself or anyone else here..Besides I know you are a really nice guy and you have given me support in the past...You don't really mean this- or really think this of us do you?

I was depressingly homesick and this thread has helped me so much. As I have said- its now been 8 weeks and I am feeling happy again. I am not kidding when I said I was depressed- I was scared at how sad I felt. Its not about Race or Money...Its about feeling alone and homesick. About wanting to express this without being looked at like a freak- which I was at a few early gatherings I went to when I expressed how I felt.

I did not start this thread to organise a meeting weith people- that has just been a side effect (possibly a good one)...I started it because I had no one to talk to...I met someone thru this thread last week-Jezzman and his wife...Jezzman gave me some great advice to me early on in this thread. (see his graph) He helped me so much. So this thread worked for me.

When we met there was NO Singapore bashing whatsoever.We don't think we are better or smarter or richer. Or even whiter for that matter- It is making me sick to my stomach that anyone would think this is what it is about.

I was at a lunch on Friday and I met a wonderful Indian woman who is feeling exactly the same as me. And one of my 4 new friends (she is my favourite) is Malay (raised in OZ and married to a local)..As is my best friend back home. So to raise the racism stick is cheap...

The only requirement for this thread is that you are homesick and feeling a little lost. But this does not define us...Its just a side of us that we need to feel safe to express...

I know I should not be taking the bait here- I know by other threads that this is what some of you enjoy. But then I am a sucker obviously...Being a dumb rich white expat...

Make :love: Not :boxing:
notwavingdrowning...is back from the Ashram and looking for a new career.

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Postby positano » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 9:17 am

i am saddened by the turn that this post has taken because it was my understanding that this was not the original intention of this post :(

i am not for one minute saying that i agree with all of the points the unhappy expats have vented. but what i do want to say is that....

every person adjusts to change in a different way. i know people who move here and love it instantly whilst it takes more time for other people to settle in. adjustment is a process. how can one know before they actually live in singapore how they will feel about living here? its only when one lives here that one can really tell. sometimes people don't know what they will miss until its no longer there, like their family and friends. adjustment is a process and i think that working thorugh it and trying to make the most of it reflects more resilience and strength than deciding to give up before one even moves here.

maneo wrote:^ those that are trailing spouses like notwavingdrowning have a more problematic situation. Their "choice" to be in SG is not so simple.

Give them a break.
Let them vent.


spot on Maneo, i agree that it is more tough for trailing spouses.

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Postby Gilly » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 9:54 am

maneo wrote:^ While I would normally not hesitate to point out the ungraciousness of complaining guests, those that are trailing spouses like notwavingdrowning have a more problematic situation. Their "choice" to be in SG is not so simple.

Give them a break.
Let them vent.

Maybe you could set up a parallel post for "happy expats" and locals to complain about the complaining guests.
You could "seed" it with those that are "out of place" according to NWD's ground rules.

Both could compete to see which one gets longer faster.
8-)


Have you heard of freedom of speech Maneo?

You slightly redeem yourself in the post later, but don't judge people. They have their own thread here to discuss homesickness and depression and those cerain aspects that cause it.

I'm trying to go one stage further and get a few expats in similar situations out of their homes and have a fun time, cheering up session.

I'm happy here, as I have commented before, plus this is my third expat experience, so I hope I can help anyone that still not finding their way, that's looking for some understanding support or friendship.

I can't believe the amount of people that come on here goading the posters. It's really just ignorance.

If you're going to say things like Maneo opened with, don't say anything at all.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:01 am

NWD, you are right, I don't entirely mean it either but I do find that most here are over reacting so sometimes the only way to see past that is to give response in the same narrow vein as the proponents. I really do not see a need to segregate posters on an open forum. To me it's much better to have a mix and that way each learns about the other. There is lots of valuable information and insights to be gleaned from the locals on this board in the lower forums (lower down the page). The higher up the index you go does seem to have a direct correlation to flakiness and the stereotypical local. If you spend some time in the Beauty or Airlines threads you will notice what I am saying. It would seem that there are two distinct flavours of local participants on this board. Fair enough, there are tossers in every country and nobody's country or citizens are immune from their share of them, Expats included.

I deliberately indicated in my earlier post that I wasn't necessarily targeting anybody specifically either here or elsewhere but as a general observation over a period of a quarter of a century from my own P.O.V.

It would also appear that marriages today are not created equal, with only the breadwinner (perceived) having the ultimate decision making capability. I know a number on this board that have the tables turned (where the husband is both the trailing spouse AND the primary caregiver to the infants/children) I've yet to see them whinging but that hasn't stopped them from becoming a very active part of this community. There are many other trailing spouses here who have their hands full with their activities. Of course, these are a different breed of Expat as I was indicating earlier. So, yes I do see a difference.

Even you, who set this thread up initially, rapidly found out it really wasn't necessary at all, as within a very short space of 8 weeks, and now has a full social calendar. It only takes making the first step. You are in Asia and the average Asian will not make the first step (unless they are SPG's) :mrgreen: After you make the first step they will definitely meet you half way. Or even go further. Often they are embarrassed with their level of English but if you don't show concern they will soon liven up as well. It's a two-way street. Instead of sequestering yourselves in a little enclave, open up and explore (as you have already done and look how fast it blossomed into a full calendar).

I just fail to see how a few locals can put "expats" into such a tailspin. Grip and whinging is okay. So is defending their actions. They are a pragmatic lot. While I don't like a lot of the garbage either, there is nothing I can do about it except gripe and/or go home. Or gripe about it and continue on continuing as just looking at it as one of the quirks in life.

I AM trying to help. What I am writing is trying to help. By isolating yourselves you are doing a disservice to yourself, your host here and your hosts here in this country where you are a guest. Please don't take my admonishments as a put-down but try to see where I'm am coming from. As far as eloquence is concerned, I ain't got none. I'm an ole farmer with a high school education only. But I've also got 40 years of living on my wits and 30 of them overseas (not counting an 18 month tour of duty in the NAM in the mid '60's)

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Postby Gilly » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:49 am

I think much of your last couple of comments are targeting things I have said.

This is my last attempt, but if your are going to twist words to suit your own argument, go ahead.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:By isolating yourselves you are doing a disservice to yourself, your host here and your hosts here in this country where you are a guest.



I don't see people wanting to isolate themselves sms, I see them wanting to embrace the culture and people and start to enjoy Singapore. Getting together with a few people in a similar situation now and again, is not a desire to isolate ones self.
You are the one overreacting to this thread.
You are so dead against a few expats getting together, what are you trying to protect.

I'm sure you have just decided to bait me on this one.

My final words on this: There was a good expat group in my last country, it was very supportive, locals were included - mainly they had some expat experience themselves though. They all know each other and meet up often, the monthly meetings are bigger and is a chance for everyone to get together, which is a great induction for New expats. It's a unique and great fun environment. That didnt mean they didn't integrate, they did. There were quite a few expat to local marriages - including mine. Singaporeexpats on the other hand, is too big with too many trolls. Any attempts to create a small expat gathering is being condemned as impolite and ungracious to local people. I don't understand it, but I will give it up. No offence, okay?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 22 Jul 2008 1:38 pm

Gilly wrote:I think much of your last couple of comments are targeting things I have said.

Actually I wasn't targeting anybody but was replying to NWD who started this thread and also mooted the idea first about having a exclusive area "only for expats"

This is my last attempt, but if your are going to twist words to suit your own argument, go ahead.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:By isolating yourselves you are doing a disservice to yourself, your host here and your hosts here in this country where you are a guest.


Feel free to think that way but if I were just dead set against it I would have just said forgeddit! with no other explanations. I don't have an argument per se at all.

I don't see people wanting to isolate themselves sms, I see them wanting to embrace the culture and people and start to enjoy Singapore. Getting together with a few people in a similar situation now and again, is not a desire to isolate ones self.
You are the one overreacting to this thread.
You are so dead against a few expats getting together, what are you trying to protect.

As I've said before, we have the WNDC which is primarily expat oriented and FNDC which is primarily local mandarin speaking. There is also the over thirties club and the Indian Subforum which also gives a central area for the Indian Diaspora. The whole board is the purview of the Western Expat as that is what it was originally set up for. Along with the associated costs that go with it at $12 a pop. It was our acceptance of all as a homogeneous community here that lead this board to becoming the number one expat forum in Singapore. If you was to see trolls then spend 30 minutes on ExpatSingapore to see the difference. I have a problem with what was mooted earlier as an exclusive (meaning no Singaporean allowed) area in what is a locally owned site. Personally, I have no intention of trying to prevent it as I've explain to you in our series of PM's today. I don't have any axe to grind either. I'm just trying to maintain order and cause people to think about the negatives associated with going down the route espoused earlier (not what you are espousing - which is not a bad thing at all from my viewpoint as I've already told you).

I'm sure you have just decided to bait me on this one.

To me, this isn't a baiting matter as it could affect the stability of the board if it looks like we start catering to a select group... I'm sorry if you feel that way.

My final words on this: There was a good expat group in my last country, it was very supportive, locals were included - mainly they had some expat experience themselves though. They all know each other and meet up often, the monthly meetings are bigger and is a chance for everyone to get together, which is a great induction for New expats. It's a unique and great fun environment. That didnt mean they didn't integrate, they did. There were quite a few expat to local marriages - including mine. SingaporeExpats on the other hand, is too big with too many trolls. Any attempts to create a small expat gathering is being condemned as impolite and ungracious to local people. I don't understand it, but I will give it up. No offence, okay?


That's one thing you can be sure of. And most here will agree. I never take offense. This is a discussion board. We discuss. I put my views across, not my "feelings".

And I really need to start looking at post time stamps because I am working and doing this and I don't really know which came first, you post above or your PM which I saw first and answered before seeing this....... :???:

sms


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