Singapore Expats Forum

ERP rates in CBD to go up, new gantries added, does it work?

Discuss about the latest news & interesting topics, real life experience or other out of topic discussions with locals & expatriates in Singapore.

User avatar
Wind In My Hair
Manager
Manager
Posts: 2306
Joined: Tue, 19 Jul 2005

Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 22 Jun 2008 8:40 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:the growth of car ownership says that there are more drivers and not less.

It's not car ownership that is the problem, it's road usage. The government couldn't care less if you had a huge Mercedes parked outside your house to show off to your friends... it just doesn't want you to take it onto the roads.

And of course there are more drivers in absolute numbers. But a few comparisons may shed a little light. Singapore's population is growing by 4.4% while vehicle growth is capped at 3%. So in relative terms, car ownership per capita is falling. Also, Singapore's GDP per capita ranks in the top 10 according to IMF, World Bank and CIA rankings, yet is not even among the top 50 in the world for car ownership according to an Economist report which quoted International Car Federation figures. (Darn, all my URL links got blocked so I can't show you the sources of these statistics - you'll have to google just like I did).

So while opinions are well and good, objectively it would seem that something is being done right to manage car ownership. As for road usage, go to any other major city in the region and come back and tell me what you think of Singapore.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:ERP doesn't reduce traffic as all, it just reroutes it for a little while.

The only thing that the ERP is "supposed" do to is to smooth traffic flow heading into the city during the rush hours. If fails miserably however

Anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise. Even the taxi drivers now look at me in surprise when I say use the expressway at peak hour, which means lots of people are choosing alternative routes. I know people who go to work early or work late to avoid ERP. I also know people who choose to leave the car home and use public transport if they work in the city or are meeting friends there socially. Of course there is still traffic going into the city. The point is, you don't see the alternative. Try one week without ERP and I'm sure you will see a huge difference.

bruinbear
Regular
Regular
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun, 15 Jun 2008
Location: Singapore

Postby bruinbear » Sun, 22 Jun 2008 9:51 pm

"If transport were a religion, Singapore would be a holy place."

Some 'ang-moh' holding some high post in some international transport agency (not sure UN agency or what) said the above not too long ago.

User avatar
Forks
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon, 04 Feb 2008
Location: in the draw
Contact:

Postby Forks » Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:27 pm

ERP = Everyday Rob People

thats what the taxi drives call it when I take a taxi.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34257
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:39 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise. Even the taxi drivers now look at me in surprise when I say use the expressway at peak hour, which means lots of people are choosing alternative routes. I know people who go to work early or work late to avoid ERP. I also know people who choose to leave the car home and use public transport if they work in the city or are meeting friends there socially. Of course there is still traffic going into the city. The point is, you don't see the alternative. Try one week without ERP and I'm sure you will see a huge difference.


Which is exactly what I said, it just reroutes it. It doesn't reduce it. They ar still driving and if the taxi drivers shun certain routes that that even confirms what I'm saying even more. Still the same number of cars on the road. Raise the rates high enough on a certain route into the city they take another until that one is jammed up and then raise the rates there. Playing cat and mouse but not reducing anything. So your anecdotal evidence supports, not suggests otherwise. :wink:

I drove here long before ERP and CTE, SLE, BKE & TPE. I DO know what it's like. :P

cavalier
Regular
Regular
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon, 10 Mar 2008

Postby cavalier » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:00 am

The ERP alone may not have a huge effect on traffic. But combined with the COE scheme Singapore has been effective in keeping traffic in check. SMS, have you ever driven around Washington, D.C. or NYC during rush hour? To me there is no comparison with Singapore. Or you can take a look at car ownership rates. Singapore's rate is 39%. In NYC it's 58% and Chicago 89%.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34257
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 6:51 am

cavalier wrote:The ERP alone may not have a huge effect on traffic. But combined with the COE scheme Singapore has been effective in keeping traffic in check. SMS, have you ever driven around Washington, D.C. or NYC during rush hour? To me there is no comparison with Singapore. Or you can take a look at car ownership rates. Singapore's rate is 39%. In NYC it's 58% and Chicago 89%.


I lived and worked in Downtown Washington DC for 8 years while living in Laurel MD. So, obviously, to answer your question, yes I have. And probably a lot more. I also know that between the beltway, and the reasonably good greenwave effect that the traffic even today (well up to two years ago anyway) still moved reasonably well with the exception of a very few exits off the beltway.

Again, if you want to do comparisons, use the care ownerships rates coupled with land mass and population density as well as the total number of km's of roadway in the same area. It's the only way to compare statistics fairly, your method reeks of Singstat's methods of making stats say what they want. As was pointed out, all factors must be taken into effect. You are talking about a city becoming gridlocked, we are talking about a whole country here. :wink: Again, apples with apples? Hmmm?

Turtle
Regular
Regular
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri, 25 Apr 2008

Postby Turtle » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 8:21 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:You are talking about a city becoming gridlocked, we are talking about a whole country here. :wink: Again, apples with apples? Hmmm?


Right, the problem is that if you live in New York state, you don't drive downtown during busy periods (or at all) if you can help it. If you have to go for work, so be it - you can carpool or use other methods, or just deal with it. Here you don't have that option because you can't not drive "downtown" - everywhere is downtown! Even in heartland HDB estates you have cars here and there trying to find parking and so on. Any park at the weekend, Pasir Ris, MacRitchie etc - packed with people, again you're lucky to find a place to park - at a park! It's not like the suburb of a US city where if you want to shop you can go to the big Wal-Mart that's way out in the open, no traffic jams, big parking lot etc. You just can't escape from it in Singapore because everything is part of the big city.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34257
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 8:57 am

Excuse me. My US history, if I remember correctly, makes New Jersey a different State let alone the suburbs. And the traffic back and forth from New Jersey into in the mornings and out of in the evenings is huge. So yes, I beg to differ there. The same with my living in Laurel & Greenbelt Md.

You see to be not too familiar with the City-State as of yet. Have you ventured to the North, North East, or West of the Island? You have plenty of Big Malls out in these areas with upmarket branded stores in them as well. I live in the North and I rarely (maybe a couple of time a year at best) venture downtown as I can shop in AMK Hub, Northpoint, Causway Point, Westmall, Jurong East Shopping Centre. You don't need to go down to the CBD just like any western city that you are referring to.

As far as "you don't drive downtown" goes, you shouldn't do it here either. That's the problem, they do. And all the measures to get them to quit driving and using public transport fails because they WILL NOT use it "IF" they already own a car. It makes less sense if you look at it from that perspective and compare it with the US as you are wont to do. We don't have excellent public transport facilities that extend seamlessly in the US because of the sheer size of the country so "having" to drive to the city sometimes is unavoidable. Here it is totally avoidable because the whole country has an excellent people Mover system already in place. So I don't quite follow where you are going with it.

yoongf
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue, 20 Jul 2004
Location: Dunearn/Chancery

Postby yoongf » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:10 am

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:Hey banana, for jumping yellow fruit you make sense sometimes. I really do not understand the 9 to 6 attitude in general, and especially here in Singapore.


In Sg, many families have 1 car, and in the morning, the daddy wld drop the kids off at sch, and then drop the mommy off at work, and then daddy takes the car to work. Daddy and mommy wld normally reach office earlier then the normal office hr, but that time is used to have breakfast with colleagues.

Everytime there is a proposal at work to stagger office hrs, the daddy or mommy wld review their schedule, and the general feeling is that any change in office hrs wld disrupt this morning commute arrangement.

Even when schs propose later start times, the parents wld object cos they wld not be able to reach work on time.

User avatar
Forks
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon, 04 Feb 2008
Location: in the draw
Contact:

Postby Forks » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:29 pm

While I like some of the nifty juggling of numbers Im going to go with the idea mentioned before that in a country where they outlawed spitting, chewing gum, oposition parties, protests, free speach, and fun in general; that the Ghament here gets more out of having the situation as is (read $$$$ and more $$$$ for the people in charge) than not so they dont really care about it, the ERPs are just icing on the cash cow gatteau, COEs and ERPs are just cleverly (or not) disguised taxes.

Singapore has pretty good public transport and being so small its not the hellish commutes like I used to face in Tokyo where an hour to work was 1 hour crushed on a train in intimate bodily contact with complete strangers. Or the hour behind the wheel of the car in gridlock elsewhere.

cavalier
Regular
Regular
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon, 10 Mar 2008

Postby cavalier » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:32 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote: I lived and worked in Downtown Washington DC for 8 years while living in Laurel MD. So, obviously, to answer your question, yes I have. And probably a lot more. I also know that between the beltway, and the reasonably good greenwave effect that the traffic even today (well up to two years ago anyway) still moved reasonably well with the exception of a very few exits off the beltway.


LOL, I have never heard anyone call traffic on the beltway reasonable. I lived there a few years back and it was terrible.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Again, if you want to do comparisons, use the care ownerships rates coupled with land mass and population density as well as the total number of km's of roadway in the same area. It's the only way to compare statistics fairly, your method reeks of Singstat's methods of making stats say what they want. As was pointed out, all factors must be taken into effect. You are talking about a city becoming gridlocked, we are talking about a whole country here. :wink: Again, apples with apples? Hmmm?


Sure, all those other factors are important considerations. But I am just trying to throw some numbers out there for a simple basis of comparison. If you think I cherry picked those numbers, I found some more (from a different study). These are the US cities with the lowest car ownership rates:

NYC 44%
Washington, DC 63%
Baltimore 64%
Philadelphia 64%
Boston 65%
Chicago 71%
San Francisco 71%
Detroit 78%
Milwaukee 79%
LA 83%

They are all much higher than Singapore. That's not a coincidence, is it?

User avatar
banana
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 961
Joined: Tue, 24 May 2005

Postby banana » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:54 pm

yoongf wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:Hey banana, for jumping yellow fruit you make sense sometimes. I really do not understand the 9 to 6 attitude in general, and especially here in Singapore.


In Sg, many families have 1 car, and in the morning, the daddy wld drop the kids off at sch, and then drop the mommy off at work, and then daddy takes the car to work. Daddy and mommy wld normally reach office earlier then the normal office hr, but that time is used to have breakfast with colleagues.

Everytime there is a proposal at work to stagger office hrs, the daddy or mommy wld review their schedule, and the general feeling is that any change in office hrs wld disrupt this morning commute arrangement.

Even when schs propose later start times, the parents wld object cos they wld not be able to reach work on time.


First of all, how old are you? Daddy? Mommy? Do you think you're talking to a bunch of kids? :roll:

Otherwise, you raise a valid point. The fisherman mentality, as PPF so aptly named it, doesn't end with authority figures. But it has to start with them. Make it worth the "inconvenience" faced by their staff. Point out the operational necessity of the changes and how it would actually benefit them as well. If they cannot grasp the magnitude of it, then you probably do not want people like that on your staff roll in the first place.

Go tell that to your Daddy.
some signatures are more equal than others

bruinbear
Regular
Regular
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun, 15 Jun 2008
Location: Singapore

Postby bruinbear » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 8:53 pm

Traffic in LA is really bad.

But sad thing is you can't really get around without a car.

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10405
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 23 Jun 2008 9:25 pm

Singapore is very fortunate in that it can actually control the number of cars on the road. Most US cities suck, at least at rush hour... sorry SMS, I think that DC is the pits... but NY, LA, and Dallas are about the same.

Of course, Bangkok and KL are real horror shows and they show what happens if you cannot control the total auto population.

If Singapore cut down on the increase in permitted vehicles each year, the COE would sky rocket. The fundamental problem with the COE is that it means only the rich can drive if the COE goes high enough.

I'm OK with Singapore putting even more restrictions on auto growth. But, I would like to see a lottery where every Singaporean (with car or without) could 'win' a COE which in turn could be sold to someone at whatever the market will bear.

Never happen though, cause the tax dollars would be lost.

User avatar
Forks
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon, 04 Feb 2008
Location: in the draw
Contact:

Postby Forks » Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:01 am

Charmaine Vonda wrote:very soon only the elite can afford to drive into the city. you not rich enough please take public transport ok. CBD roads only for the rich. dont drive your cheap japanese car and jam up the road and block elites driving to work ok i can't sing anyway, and chewing gum just sticks to my dentures and i behave like a dog eating peanut butter, so i stay away from gum and kareoky machines.


What the hell does this mean? :shock:
Poking, poking everywhere...


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
  • Landlord added webcams to the house and is spying on us
    by thijs_k » Sun, 11 Nov 2012 4:16 pm » in Staying, Living in Singapore
    9
    3877
    by cooldude View the latest post
    Sat, 24 Nov 2012 8:42 pm
  • ERP gantry waiting
    by x9200 » Wed, 03 Jul 2013 1:25 pm » in Staying, Living in Singapore
    1
    867
    by zzm9980 View the latest post
    Wed, 03 Jul 2013 1:35 pm
  • CBD Lunch/After work drink?
    by mb25 » Fri, 02 Oct 2015 6:30 pm » in 20's Club
    4
    990
    by con_george View the latest post
    Thu, 26 Nov 2015 7:02 pm
  • CBD Lunch/After work drink?
    by mb25 » Fri, 02 Oct 2015 6:31 pm » in 30's Club
    9
    2235
    by amui View the latest post
    Wed, 30 Dec 2015 6:00 pm
  • F/34 keen to make new friends.. East Coast/Dakota/CBD?
    by AnnaD » Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:07 am » in Newcomer's Lounge
    2
    1394
    by melbIgo View the latest post
    Sat, 28 Mar 2015 9:02 am

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests