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Postby ksl » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:50 am

banana wrote:superglide isn't entirely off tangent. nobody actually looks at an ad and go "I gotta get me one of those now!". marketers like to think they should though, and often demands so.

it really depends on your definition of 'selling' and that line is a little hazier with classifieds and internet sales.

Sales - "come home with me"

Advertising - "he's fantastic in bed"

Marketing - "I'm fantastic in bed"


superglide:yeah, I was thinking of the same banana, it all depends on the definition of advertising.

For us marketeers, it is part of above the line communications, but others like ksl may think of simply advertising your car in the paper.

I do like your stereotyping on marketeers!
I think superglide was just interpreting in his own sarcastic way, hence the wise crack, without bothering to read the thread, and the relevance of ang moh promoting and selling the product V's local...advertising campaigns also have a better response rate, if ang moh is used, than just local Chinese.

The main reason in my opinion, is that mainland Chinese production is focussed more on quantity rather than quality, so consumers in Singapore have a distrust, especially in food & beverages coming from the mainland, the ang moh is kind of a symbol of acceptance for a product, in the eyes of many laymen, so ang moh in advertisements, or promotion sticks in peoples minds, the product must be safe and accepted hypothetically, that is.

No matter what anyone says the mix is a toolbox and the strategy can be changed at any time, even the salesman can be replaced, it's all about the quality and efficiency of the tools one is using from a business mans perspective and very many small to medium sized business do not have the luxury, to afford the tools required for the hypothesis, but they do not always fail to make profit.

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Postby banana » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 2:21 am

ksl wrote: I think superglide was just interpreting in his own sarcastic way, hence the wise crack, without bothering to read the thread, and the relevance of ang moh promoting and selling the product V's local...advertising campaigns also have a better response rate, if ang moh is used, than just local Chinese.


I'm sure it was just a simple case of miscommunication. Thankfully for which or people like me would be out of work! :lol:

ksl wrote:The main reason in my opinion, is that mainland Chinese production is focussed more on quantity rather than quality, so consumers in Singapore have a distrust, especially in food & beverages coming from the mainland, the ang moh is kind of a symbol of acceptance for a product, in the eyes of many laymen, so ang moh in advertisements, or promotion sticks in peoples minds, the product must be safe and accepted hypothetically, that is.


That makes sense although I think there's more to it. In the case of drinking vinegar, a very 'Eastern' product, the novelty and contrast of a Westerner promoting it amplifies its credibility. On the same line of thought, a 'Western' product/service will gain a similar boost from endorsement by an Asian. Take the Mastercard advertising campaign with Yao Ming and Jackie Chan for example.

It depends on the market you are targeting. If you tried distributing your drinking vinegar in a Western market, you might find the "ang moh selling Asian product" strategy to be less effective. At least without some clever positioning.

ksl wrote:No matter what anyone says the mix is a toolbox and the strategy can be changed at any time, even the salesman can be replaced, it's all about the quality and efficiency of the tools one is using from a business mans perspective and very many small to medium sized business do not have the luxury, to afford the tools required for the hypothesis, but they do not always fail to make profit.


True, but to some extent, that applies more to businesses that operate primarily on a one-to-many model, like FMCGs and retail. The bottomline remains, a business has to be profitable. But businesses on the one-to-few model cannot afford not to be selective about their clientele. If my client were to see my services as purely a cost-center, then is it still worth working for him?

The problem with traditional small-medium businesses is that they do not value their customers enough to see the importance of quality communication. They do not recognise the savings, both financially and managing of human resources, they gain from outsourcing to experts. Most of all, they do not appreciate the fresh perspective an 'outsider' can provide. That, is the catch 22 situation with the service industry. Those who can are usually the ones that make it to the next level and stay there.
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Postby ksl » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 5:02 am

Banana:It depends on the market you are targeting. If you tried distributing your drinking vinegar in a Western market, you might find the "ang moh selling Asian product" strategy to be less effective. At least without some clever positioning.

Yes I agree to a certain extent, because every marketing & advertising campaign would have to be tailored, to cover marketing, advertising and sales in relation to the demographics of the country concerned, it would be much more challenging to take an Asian product to the west, call it Pure Acid and it may sell :lol: but vinegar difficult for joe bloggs to stomach.

If my client were to see my services as purely a cost-center, then is it still worth working for him?
If the business is running by the book, monitoring of response rates, on promotion activity including advertising, and sales, will produce the results, I know for a fact, many businesses globally neglect their business procedures, because of one reason or another, not just here in Singapore.

It's easy for me to criticise business, but that's why a studied business economics and international trading, the cost factor is a very important one, to save a business from bankruptcy, once that is done, it would be back to the book, and running the company how it should be run, with marketing and advertising, failures are complexes and have to be identified reasonably quickly if the marketing & advertising campaigns are not working.
All business should be conducted by the book, to minimise inefficiencies

The problem with traditional small-medium businesses is that they do not value their customers enough to see the importance of quality communication. They do not recognise the savings, both financially and managing of human resources, they gain from outsourcing to experts. Most of all, they do not appreciate the fresh perspective an 'outsider' can provide. That, is the catch 22 situation with the service industry. Those who can are usually the ones that make it to the next level and stay there.
This is very true, the world over, not just in Singapore, In fact I would say most business development specialists meet this problem on a daily basis, because there isn't many businessmen that are open to having a sparring partner around, at a cost of 200$ an hour, when they think they know best.

That's why most governments offer grants, to encourage small to medium sized businesses, to take advantage of business development specialists in trade, market research and preparation, for marketing and advertising have to be planned for, with many factors like economies of scale being scrutinised, it's the same old story of the qualifications one may have, count for nothing, if the job you are doing, is not productive.

So even though i appreciate the marketeer and value advertising and the revenue stream they bring, I would still have to convince the business owner, to see the light and contribute to the effort of planning and execution.

He would see it, as a business consultant knowing more than he, and how can that be, when the business owner has built his assets from nothing and its his business, and the consultant is working for a fee, owns nothing but likes to give advice, for them it's more cost, risk and stress, because they have never been able to delegate the responsibility to others, and especially outsiders.

Although a new way of recruitment may be, to offer marketing and advertising free until results are produced and take a % of the profits, it creates by contract. :D I don't know if i'm serious or not about that one, at this time of the day! Sleep calls! :)

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Postby banana » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:19 am

ksl wrote:If the business is running by the book, monitoring of response rates, on promotion activity including advertising, and sales, will produce the results, I know for a fact, many businesses globally neglect their business procedures, because of one reason or another, not just here in Singapore.

It's easy for me to criticise business, but that's why a studied business economics and international trading, the cost factor is a very important one, to save a business from bankruptcy, once that is done, it would be back to the book, and running the company how it should be run, with marketing and advertising, failures are complexes and have to be identified reasonably quickly if the marketing & advertising campaigns are not working.
All business should be conducted by the book, to minimise inefficiencies

This is very true, the world over, not just in Singapore, In fact I would say most business development specialists meet this problem on a daily basis, because there isn't many businessmen that are open to having a sparring partner around, at a cost of 200$ an hour, when they think they know best.

That's why most governments offer grants, to encourage small to medium sized businesses, to take advantage of business development specialists in trade, market research and preparation, for marketing and advertising have to be planned for, with many factors like economies of scale being scrutinised, it's the same old story of the qualifications one may have, count for nothing, if the job you are doing, is not productive.

So even though i appreciate the marketeer and value advertising and the revenue stream they bring, I would still have to convince the business owner, to see the light and contribute to the effort of planning and execution.

He would see it, as a business consultant knowing more than he, and how can that be, when the business owner has built his assets from nothing and its his business, and the consultant is working for a fee, owns nothing but likes to give advice, for them it's more cost, risk and stress, because they have never been able to delegate the responsibility to others, and especially outsiders.

Although a new way of recruitment may be, to offer marketing and advertising free until results are produced and take a % of the profits, it creates by contract. :D I don't know if i'm serious or not about that one, at this time of the day! Sleep calls! :)


Very true about SMBs facing similar issue globally. Guess that's what sets the men from the boys.

On the other hand, the fact that a business owner knows his business like the back of his hand is also why an external agent is helpful. To use your analogy, only when you have a sparring partner will you know where and how to improve. I'd prefer to see consultants as mirrors - without them you can't really see what you look like.

It is unfair, however, to say that consultants own nothing. Or that advertising should be free until results are produced. Expertise, whether schooled or through experience, do not come without cost. Neither do intellectual property such as software, ideas and techniques. Then there is also opportunity costs associated with man hours spent.

Just as a business owner identifies a new product he feels the market needs, an external consultant helps to identify changes in the existing market and ways to penetrate new ones. The only difference being one is a physical product while the other is an intangible good.

I do agree that transparency and running by the books can only help a business. Another business owner once told me, if the business cannot operate without you, then all you have is just bigger job.
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Postby Addadude » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:36 am

According to merriam-webster.com, one of the definitions of selling is:

"7 a: to cause or promote the sale of <using> b: to make or attempt to make sales to c: to influence or induce to make a purchase"

Sounds like advertising to me!

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:44 am

Only an advertiser would claim that advertising is not selling! :P

In theory everything a seller does counts as selling, and I'm with Addadude on this. I understand what the advertising folks mean though -advertising is not Point Of Sale (where money changes hands) so if you want to split hairs then only POS is selling.

I wouldn't be so keen to split hairs if I were an advertiser though. From a business owner's perspective, I can sell without advertising, but I cannot sell without closing the sale. So my salesman is more valuable to me than an advertiser. If I were an advertiser I would want to be part of the selling picture, not take myself out of it. So am I missing something or are the advertising folk missing something?

The best definition I've heard of advertising is "occupying mindspace". Advertisements don't make a consumer jump up and run to the supermarket to buy something, true. But when browsing the shelves at a supermarket, I may buy an advertised product simply because it is already part of my mindspace and therefore 'familiar'.

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Postby cutiebutie » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 3:48 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Only an advertiser would claim that advertising is not selling! :P


Or a 'marketeer' who hasn't a clue! :-$
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Postby ksl » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 4:18 pm

Banana:It is unfair, however, to say that consultants own nothing. Or that advertising should be free until results are produced. Expertise, whether schooled or through experience, do not come without cost. Neither do intellectual property such as software, ideas and techniques. Then there is also opportunity costs associated with man hours spent.
Yes quite true, my apologies, it was a figure of speech more than actual fact!

Business for me, is more than a profession, no matter what the product is, I feel it more of a passion to compete and would never underestimate my competitor, although that is probably more emphasised by me, because of my military background, were many businessmen, would maybe not take the threat too seriously until it was too late.

Planning and strategy is routine and second nature for many ex service professionals, and the fundamentals of business aids/tools, mixes enhance, the success, and return of profits, if managed correctly.

Marketeers are without a doubt a valuable asset to have, and a luxury for most, just like an export department is also a valuable asset to have. But the running cost factor is very relevant to the ROI for most companies, unless they have the capital or financial resources to see them through. Most haven't, being export orientated it is much more feasible for me, to take % of profits based on my results.

Rather than sell my consultation time, simply because commission or royalties, can be locked in over a number of years, if a company doesn't have the finance available for for an intensive export thrust.

I can still guarantee to penetrate a market, after a feasibility study is done, opportunity cost is a valid point, hence a contractual period of commission.

Outsourcing to specialist consultants is without a doubt, the best way, but it can also be a costly experience, before the client gets one he is satisfied with.

This is where target segmentation of clients is beneficial for a marketeer and advertiser, but at the end of the day, cost and ROI is number one priority for the businessman, that has probably succeeded many years, without the luxury of a marketing department.


Or a 'marketeer' who hasn't a clue!
:lol: Well many marketeers have not yet finished their studies, the problems of grandeur creeps in, when one is fixated after being employed by MNC, who can afford marketing departments and also quite often, find they are carrying excess baggage and non productive performers. Reality hits home with a bang :wink: when they are fired for being fixated.

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Postby banana » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 7:22 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:If I were an advertiser I would want to be part of the selling picture, not take myself out of it. So am I missing something or are the advertising folk missing something?


No one's missing anything, you just misunderstood what transpired (again :P ).

An advertiser would want to be part of the selling picture, no doubt. That is the only way to truly measure the success of their efforts, not to mention the invaluable real-world feedback on what works, what needs to be changed. Otherwise said advertiser is merely a design house, management consultant, whatever.

So what does that make the previous exchange? A necessary discourse, if academic, on the differences. Or splitting hair as you put it, except in context of a discussion rather than real world application.

ksl wrote:Business for me, is more than a profession, no matter what the product is, I feel it more of a passion to compete and would never underestimate my competitor, although that is probably more emphasised by me, because of my military background, were many businessmen, would maybe not take the threat too seriously until it was too late.

Planning and strategy is routine and second nature for many ex service professionals, and the fundamentals of business aids/tools, mixes enhance, the success, and return of profits, if managed correctly.

Marketeers are without a doubt a valuable asset to have, and a luxury for most, just like an export department is also a valuable asset to have. But the running cost factor is very relevant to the ROI for most companies, unless they have the capital or financial resources to see them through. Most haven't, being export orientated it is much more feasible for me, to take % of profits based on my results.

Rather than sell my consultation time, simply because commission or royalties, can be locked in over a number of years, if a company doesn't have the finance available for for an intensive export thrust.

I can still guarantee to penetrate a market, after a feasibility study is done, opportunity cost is a valid point, hence a contractual period of commission.

Outsourcing to specialist consultants is without a doubt, the best way, but it can also be a costly experience, before the client gets one he is satisfied with.

This is where target segmentation of clients is beneficial for a marketeer and advertiser, but at the end of the day, cost and ROI is number one priority for the businessman, that has probably succeeded many years, without the luxury of a marketing department.

:lol: Well many marketeers have not yet finished their studies, the problems of grandeur creeps in, when one is fixated after being employed by MNC, who can afford marketing departments and also quite often, find they are carrying excess baggage and non productive performers. Reality hits home with a bang :wink: when they are fired for being fixated.


Since you claim to be a military man, allow me to use military analogies. Tell me if you think this sounds right.

A small-medium business owner is like the OC of a company. You have an objective to take (to make profit) while losing as few men as possible (avoid bankruptcy). The better you achieve this balance, the better your ROI.

Your marketing department is your support platoon. They provide cover fire while your grunts (salespeople) charge the objective. It is still possible to take the objective without them but you risk losing more men.

Your advertiser is the artillery company. If your objective doesn't call for it (can't afford it), then you don't use it. Being in the background, the artillery company is likely to have better enemy intelligence. But they still need you to tell them what it's like on the ground to provide best support.

Maybe you're Rambo and have survived countless battles. Have you noticed though, that those who fight alongside Rambo usually dies? :lol:
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Postby Superglide » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 7:34 pm

Well,

let me be the arrogant prick some of you thin/write/say I am:

I rather spend my time being the marketeer in the company I work for, than being a wisenose here, in a low level theoretical discussion about advertising being selling.

Thanks banana, you do bring value to the discussion.

Ksl, I cannot find anything valuable in your endless writings, sorry for that, my lack.

Addadude, you work in advertising, because marketing departments need hands and some brains to outsource it to, no more no less.

If you are convinced advertising is selling, I would never ever hire you to communicate my company's mesaage, but seemingly there are those who do, as I guess you're not jobless.

Ok, I think the time has come for me to leave this virtual platform, I am out!
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Postby cutiebutie » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 8:34 pm

Oh no, Superglide is having a tizzy-fit because he made a fool of himself again. :-$

Bye :wave: Is this another one of your boomerang good-byes? :roll:
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:50 pm

banana wrote:No one's missing anything, you just misunderstood what transpired (again :P ).

Ah, still sore at being reduced by the Reducto (sic), I see. :lol:

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Postby ksl » Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:35 pm

Maybe you're Rambo and have survived countless battles. Have you noticed though, that those who fight alongside Rambo usually dies?


Your analogy, is remarkably close, but lacks military experience, team work again would be key.

OC maybe the leader of the pack, and after briefing or debriefing with team leaders, would make his own evaluation, though let it be noted, that even new section and platoon leaders, would rely on the practical experience of their combatants, before making any foolish moves.

Having said that, most professional combatants have been tested in the extremes of conditions, character building, integrity and respect is known, unless a new leader steps in.

I can assure you that new officers for example, are there to learn from their junior ranks, and would be soon put in their place, if life was at stake.

Even the best sprog lieutenant leaders from Sandhurst, have had to start on the bottom rung of the ladder, with various experience of combatants to keep them alive, and would be foolish to ignore the experience of combatants, it would jeopardise, the teamwork for the sake of rank, and i doubt any professional team, would allow it to happen.

Have you noticed though, that those who fight alongside Rambo usually dies
Many people make great sacrifices for many reasons, of which nine times out of 10 are very personal and meaningful, to them, and their comrades in arms... Personally I would prefer a team i could count on, than one, that i couldn't!

To get the right crew in place, may take a filtering process, that can be a costly affair don't you think? But once the teamwork is in place, by outsourcing, a more positive picture of success can be seen, the ability for success lies within, and the ability to give up may also be there for some!

I like to minimise the risks, not take them for no specific reason :)

No hard feelings superglide, it's nothing personal, but respect is earned, show a little, receive a little, sarcasm comes at a price! We could also start a sarcasm thread, that should even be more fun, don't you think, i mean entertaining :)

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Postby banana » Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:19 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:
banana wrote:No one's missing anything, you just misunderstood what transpired (again :P ).

Ah, still sore at being reduced by the Reducto (sic), I see. :lol:


Not as sore as you'll be when I'm done :P

ksl wrote:
Maybe you're Rambo and have survived countless battles. Have you noticed though, that those who fight alongside Rambo usually dies?


Your analogy, is remarkably close, but lacks military experience, team work again would be key.

OC maybe the leader of the pack, and after briefing or debriefing with team leaders, would make his own evaluation, though let it be noted, that even new section and platoon leaders, would rely on the practical experience of their combatants, before making any foolish moves.

Having said that, most professional combatants have been tested in the extremes of conditions, character building, integrity and respect is known, unless a new leader steps in.

I can assure you that new officers for example, are there to learn from their junior ranks, and would be soon put in their place, if life was at stake.

Even the best sprog lieutenant leaders from Sandhurst, have had to start on the bottom rung of the ladder, with various experience of combatants to keep them alive, and would be foolish to ignore the experience of combatants, it would jeopardise, the teamwork for the sake of rank, and i doubt any professional team, would allow it to happen.

Many people make great sacrifices for many reasons, of which nine times out of 10 are very personal and meaningful, to them, and their comrades in arms... Personally I would prefer a team i could count on, than one, that i couldn't!

To get the right crew in place, may take a filtering process, that can be a costly affair don't you think? But once the teamwork is in place, by outsourcing, a more positive picture of success can be seen, the ability for success lies within, and the ability to give up may also be there for some!

I like to minimise the risks, not take them for no specific reason :)

No hard feelings superglide, it's nothing personal, but respect is earned, show a little, receive a little, sarcasm comes at a price! We could also start a sarcasm thread, that should even be more fun, don't you think, i mean entertaining :)


I am amazed at how you managed to read my "lack of military experience" from an analogy that only briefly touches on roles. Maybe I should be in export and you in advertising. :lol:
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Postby ksl » Wed, 11 Jun 2008 3:50 am

I am amazed at how you managed to read my "lack of military experience" from an analogy that only briefly touches on roles. Maybe I should be in export and you in advertising.
Not quite sure how I should take that, so I'll remain :-|

Why use 500 men, when one or two men, will do to get the same results with probably less casualties and in a quicker time frame!

That's why we have specialised soldiers, they are more effective and efficient if multi-skilled, to achieve the same objectives, it's only when the rest come along, that are not multi-skilled that the enemy becomes aware and chaos and order breaks down, and the objective slips away, because of the powers of B. think they know better!

So OC will take advice on the best approach to minimise casualties, so you gave yourself away.

Too many players spoil the broth, support is a luxury which is costly and difficult to get, the larger the force, the more difficult, communication becomes, it's just like asking your neighbour to pass a message down the line, only the line consists of 20 other people, by the time it gets to the end of the line...the message has been totally changed, it wasn't what you said, so small is good, providing you can run by the book, it's all about skill sets and tools, if you need a better tool, rent it.

Problem with bigger business, is more often than not, one of ethical behaviour, people are out to line their own pockets at the expense of the companies, they suck at their jobs, and may have been promoted on educational ability alone, many cannot even earn, their own incomes, yet have fallen into positions to take the cake, happens all the time.

Although the importance of marketing & advertising cannot be ignored, it very often is, at a great loss because of a lack of skill sets in businessmen. I like the term grunts for salesmen, it fits in well, with the military analogy :lol:

Although i would have chosen the OC second in command 2IC, Sergeant Major and troop leaders as the team.

I used to be in an assault troop of 12 guys, but it was always more effective to to leave 10 behind to achieve objectives at night, otherwise the enemy would hear you coming, it's all about risk, to life and solving problems, with the minimum of cost :) so the closer you are to the profit, you can evaluate the risk of losing the objective...until you get to know your team well.

They all need to have the passion and professionalism to succeed, it doesn't help to have one or two fixated, and saying that's not my job, in this day and age, multi skills are not only cost effective, they are the survival skills one needs for any business operation, in a competitive market place, especially with age against us all, it's not a thing the average joe with a good degree would consider, until it's too late.

But from a businessman point of view, if i can get multi-skill set, for the price of one skill, then who will i choose, flexibility is an ideal solution to solve problems....advertisers also have the same opportunities to further their skill set and should do, in my opinion, the ROI can be well worth the trouble. :)

newspapers, billboards, in between shows
All are welcomed and needed by myself, however cost restricts choice, but building bridges for advertisers, can also mean many things, not quite to the point, or transparent enough, if you ask me, :) much better to come clean if one can, without being penalised! :lol:


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