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Discuss about the latest news & interesting topics, real life experience or other out of topic discussions with locals & expatriates in Singapore.

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Postby ksl » Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:41 pm

Your style of leadership is quite obvious,
To yourself, I would suspect you to come to that conclusion, although you are way off target! Possibly the only thing you could say about me, and be right, is that i follow the businessmans bible to the last word. My mind and ears are always open for new information.

Although I have lots of initiative, and can motivate myself, the only person i lead, is myself, and have done since the day i left home! I am what you would call a one man show, that has had to survive on my wits.

initiative have the capabilities to lead, but i get more satisfaction out of stimulating other people minds, to make money for me, So guidance would be more to the point, I'm a team player, and not only that I believe in working has little as possible, and hope others can solve, their own problems, without excuses..many cannot!

That's just how it is in the real world, although I am so easy going, that I believe in ethics, trust, flexi time and cooperative working, so all may enjoy the benefits of their labour.

But you are right in one sense, if i thought I paid good money out, for an advertising campaign, I wouldn't be silly enough to let them just do it, without briefing me, which many do!

Although that comes down to experience of meeting very poor professionals in my time, that called themselves experts in their occupations, or professions none missed out!

I don't disbelieve or dismiss your methods of advertising, because i am quite certain, that i may also have adopted them too, because in my line of work, one must be flexible to solving problems and utilising initiative and creative thinking to provide solutions to problems. more than any kind of leadership skill! In case of an emergency of whatever, I would consider myself well prepared for survival and the safety of others.

The most funniest thing i have heard here in Singapore, and from many Singaporeans, is that you cannot sell that idea here in Singapore, because of the Singapore mind-set, which is utter rubbish!

I've blown the mind set theory more than once, the problem is many Singaporeans I have met have been very short sighted, and live for the here and now!

One reason why they do not progress in their ambitions so well, is because they believe the Singapore mind-set, above believing in themselves.

It's all about conditioning the mind, that's why advertising is so damned important for the future. Your alternative methods are a niche in themselves like i said before, there is actually nothing new, in your way of thinking, it's been around for for as long as i have been on the planet, and many professionals use it, if it's gaining more recognition today I have no idea. Fishing is s hobby I enjoy! :) it's also part of my nature.

Although i guess more government agencies, non profit making organisations and charities are on the increase, with changing environmental demands and public awareness campaigns may well use your technique, more than commercial companies...You yourself could see the changes.
Rather than continuously standing on my soapbox, more can be learnt from the opinion of others, especially those not in the industry.
This is true, but we also want to learn too :wink: surprise surpise, not what you expected :) from me, I mean do you stick to your guns, and adopt your style of advertising, or do you change your style in accordance with, what your clients are looking for, that's if they know, what they are looking for.

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Postby banana » Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:31 pm

hehehe...I'm going to say something childish like "doesn't feel good being played back with your own trick does it?" Forgive me, doing copywriting on a Sunday does that to me sometimes. Geddit, geddit, COPYwriting? :lol:

gotta groan at that myself...

You and I are probably two sides of the same coin. That extends to professionalism as well, in that if the client knows what he wants (and not just says he knows), then sure, I'm willing to follow instructions of the almighty dollar. :twisted:
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Postby ksl » Mon, 16 Jun 2008 4:18 am

banana wrote:hehehe...I'm going to say something childish like "doesn't feel good being played back with your own trick does it?" Forgive me, doing copywriting on a Sunday does that to me sometimes. Geddit, geddit, COPYwriting? :lol:

gotta groan at that myself...

You and I are probably two sides of the same coin. That extends to professionalism as well, in that if the client knows what he wants (and not just says he knows), then sure, I'm willing to follow instructions of the almighty dollar. :twisted:


As in the type you see in newspapers, billboards, in between shows
So tell me why you never mentioned internet?

Are internet advertisers more tech savvy or what, or does one find the space invaded by web designers, flash specialists, working with advertising, it appears cyber space is the place to create advertising, and also very challenging for response rates, with so much unauthorised targeting.

I joined facebook a while back, and now regretting it because of all the junk.

It's quite amazing to see so many potential clients in China, Taiwan for your services, especially when i visit, the exhibitions, plenty of Copy writing to do :lol: I have also another project in mind, that will also benefit advertisers, if ever i get around to doing it.

Problem is with a mind like mine, you don't know when I will go insane (no comments :( )Never get the rest i need, continuous speculation of everything from advertising, inventing, business, learning, diamonds, anything goes, and once i start i need more information, it's kind of an addiction to information i wish i didn't have, they say the brain discards most of what is not useful, problem is, being a businessman first everything is useful, at some time, if not for myself, for someone.

What i have noticed on this thread, is that much common sense is used from non graphic advertisers, on advertising and people that may have the same thoughts has you, have not wished to express them, that baffles me a little, especially with superglide, because his oppinion would have been really appreaciate from my point of view.

I do sense that being employed with an MNC, may have it's accountability for each skill set, clearly defined, with a lack of communication of departments.
I personally cannot do one without knowing the other, so my mind is constantly scanning all areas of business not just advertising, but also the advertising of competitors.

When that amazing advertisement is finished, it's no good, if it cannot be seen, that is also my problem, to ensure it's in the right place, for consumers to see, Could be in the halls of an exhibition, on the buses, billboard, the placement is just as important as the advert to me, but is it to an advertiser, or the agency, I would say not always, depends who you get.

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Postby Addadude » Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:52 am

banana wrote:Addadude: Actually no, I am not in fact agreeing with you. I am saying there is a difference between learning and being taught. Just as there is a difference between buying and being sold to. Also, your assertion that body language is a form of selling is backed up only by itself. Circular reasoning. That's like saying "I believe in Santa Claus, therefore Santa Claus exists".


You are trying to change the argument Superglide-style again. My response had nothing to do with the difference between learning and being taught... (And, if you read my posts you'll see that I say quite clearly that just because you are selling something it doesn't mean that anyone HAS to buy.) It is undeniable that body language is a form of selling. I gave you concrete examples. You are the one who can't seem to manage a logical rebuttal of this assertion. AND I only mentioned body language as just one aspect of the way we ALL sell (and buy) in our everyday interactions with each other. I think the one who is using "circular logic" is you my friend.[/quote]

banana wrote:Having said that, I sincerely thank you for your heartfelt advice. Even though if you had actually read and comprehended my previous posts, you would have realised I acknowledged the selling aspect of advertising but believe it can be more. No wait, you alluded to as much in a later post. Confusing.


Er, no. Please re-read your posts. You appeared to VERY reluctant to associate advertising with selling. And the fact that good advertising can actually be seen as something more than selling is the subject of my very first post on this thread! But, at the end of the day, advertising has a very commercial job to do: help our client sell his product or service - or in the case of direct response ads, actually sell it. If our ads don't help our client sell product he very soon won't be our client. (And he won't want to hear anything about how our magnificent creations are doing more than selling!)

banana wrote:Still, I do think you meant well and appreciate your counsel. Your years in the industry are hard to match and even with changing climes, it is useful to remember lessons from the past. I hope to work with you some day.


Boy! I think this is what's called being damned by faint praise! Don't worry Banana, if you should still be in this industry in a couple of decade's time, you'll find that the so-called lessons of the past are very much the practices of the present! And no doubt you'll be happily biting off the limbs of all those new young guns who think they are going to transform the industry!

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Postby Addadude » Mon, 16 Jun 2008 1:35 pm

Okay. Ahem. Trying desperately to move this discussion forward...

Good ads - are they a matter of opinion? WIMH, quotes the great bard about good itself being a matter of opinion. While I am hardly in any kind of position to fault the great master, I would beg to differ to some degree.

If what constitutes a good ad is indeed entirely subjective, it would quite simply make advertising agencies (and of course their creative departments) redundant. (Something Superglide would be in vigorous agreement with no doubt.) It would make the presentation and selection of the ads that finally run pointless. You might as well run the first thing that you think of.

But the very fact that there are advertising campaigns that are incredibly effective means that some how, some way, those ads reach out and touch their target audiences in just the right way. In other words, they are good ads. And that, to me is the key: touching the TARGET AUDIENCE in the right way. As long as your intended viewer thinks your ad is good and responds accordingly, then, to me, your ad is 'good'. It's not subjective - you have a measurable response to judge it by.

Sergio Zyman is pretty clear in his opinion: a good ad is one that results in increased sales - pure and simple. (Yes, I know that there are other components to be considered in the sales process, but as far as Zyman is concerned, the purpose of advertising is to sell and if he doesn't see an increase in sales while the ads are running, the ads are a failure.)

We also have other ways of measuring how 'good' our target audience thinks our ads are: through research; through responses we can see on forums our target audiences go to; through the frequency the TV commercial (for example) is posted on YouTube...

See the now famous Cadbury's Gorilla TVC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnzFRV1LwIo

People have even gone to the trouble of doing their own versions of this commercial and posting them on YouTube too. The TVC itself only ever ran on TV about 4 times. After that it was posted on YouTube and has completely taken off with something like 2.5 million hits - in other words people actually went to the trouble to look up this TV commercial for Cadburys! And Cadbury's posted a dramatic increase in profit which they temselves attribute to this TVC.

The scary thing for me about this commercial is that there seems to be no logic behind it. (There was some great rationalisation afterwards of course...).

I hated when I first saw it. (I knew it was good for some reason that completely eludes me - but it just didn't make sense to me.)

But now I love it. Because it frightens me (in a good way). There is a completely new level of thinking that has gone on here (which is probably what Banana is trying to get at) and yet it has resulted in more cold, hard sales for Cadburys.

Is it a fluke? Or the start of something different in advertising? I reckon we'll have some idea when we see the next TVC for Cadbury's by the same agency (and creative team)...

The other way to judge if an ad is good is quite simply 'gut feel'. You just know that it is good. Just as you know when this ad that you've just come up with is bad. This is the 'magical' part of advertising that I'll get in my next reply...

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Postby ksl » Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:10 pm

The scary thing for me about this commercial is that there seems to be no logic behind it. (There was some great rationalisation afterwards of course...).

I hated when I first saw it. (I knew it was good for some reason that completely eludes me - but it just didn't make sense to me.)



This is a real piece of work, and communicates quite a lot, in my opinion, even a gorilla is intelligent, and everyone knows chocolate gives energy, it is oozing senses of smell and the eyes reflect awareness, the take off is beautiful and the beat is addictive, drums, being quite hypnotic, this add was well thought out, in my opinion and is very rational, we just have to be reminded of the fact, to use our senses and combine energy with chocolate.

Having my wife sat beside me, I asked her to point out the rational thinking behind it, of which she also missed. But for westerners they know, that chocolate is energy giving, and quite often, school kids would always have a choco bar, with them in schools in the 60's. Not only that Choco bars are also a favourite for most military's around the world, for the deliverance of energy in a small pack

The senses and expression of the gorilla is wonderful, it's in a state of awareness to smell and is in a dream state at the same time, the music just fit's in well, but my opinion would be the drum beat rather than the song was chosen, based on the hypnotic sound of drum beats, to catch attention, just like the Africans used to dance around the camp fires in an hypnotic state, to the beat of drums, the timing and explosive uptake by the gorilla was brilliant. Cadbury's chocolate is high in energy! and it communicates it very well! That even a gorilla knows it!

Cocoa is some kind of relaxant, that's also why the spaced out effect, but also energy giving, it's kind of contradictory statement, that suits many people, long distance and endurance athletes may take chocolate, other relate chocolate to cocoa, but not quite the same, because cocoa will make you sleep, where chocolate is likely to keep you a wake, cadburys not only produce milk chocolate, they also produce coco for drinks. It's a double take really for their branded products made from cocoa.

My daughter loves it too! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa

Here's a little on drum beats http://www.free-self-hypnosis.org/index.htm

I almost got high watching it myself, on two takes, it certainly triggered my brain for an advert for vinegar, that's for sure. For me it was inspirational to watch, and i was able to jog down a few, trigger words, to work on.

which is probably what Banana is trying to get at)
I don't think so...because that advert was all about sales for me and that's the kind of thought process i can appreciate because it uses senses of an intelligent animal with knowledge of cocoa plant, but also reminds people of the energy you can get from a piece of chocolate.

If this is what Banana is getting at, than i'm afraid i have missed is message! But please don't be offended by what i am about to say, but it is my belief that many Asians do lag behind many of the more commercial giants, of past...my understanding would be, that the west and USA have been watching advertising for the past 60 years or more, many of us, that have been moved by advertising, have better understanding of advertising, than those that are not moved by it and are still gaining experience. Health and energy is quite a new in Asia, and the traditions of Asia are in a process of evolution, with more vigorous exercise compared to Asian traditional way of exercise. Which is conserving energy, rather than using it..but more and more take up running.

It's all about sensory perception of which some are more sensitive than others and sense, have to be fine tuned, to pick up some signals. The evolution of advertising moves around the globe, just like fashion, just like health, just like coca cola, this advert was a brillantly put together, by those that know how to pull it off, like hits in the TOP 10 of music, the lyrics and beat have to be right at the tme, otherwise it flops. So my guess is the timing of it, combined with some good statistics on music. my belief is the drums, came before the beat, the planning and preparation was top quality.

I would think it came from a brainstorming session, they have used the 7 senses to build on, looking at it from chocolate..to cocoa plant, monkeys, apes, energy, music drum beat, africans, the actual message is energy from cadburys chocolate, a sales pitch!
Last edited by ksl on Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby banana » Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:56 pm

Addadude, I'm sorry you chose to take the post that way. Still, I tire of the negativity from our mutual dissecting of arguments. So let's just agree to disagree.

The Cadbury TVC is a great example. It visually interprets the Cadbury experience - purple walls, silver drum kit, brown gorilla that bursts into an explosion of the senses. The seeming lack of logic (it doesn't try to sell anything?) is exactly what works for it. Your usual logical disconnect (that 'clever' factor in great ads) is amplified to such a level the viewer literally goes WTF?? as his brain is tickled trying to bridge the gap. Most of all, it gets people talking.

Other 'viral' type ads include work from now defunct Reginald Pike and their Adidas series of WTF :30s. One clip basically showed 2 Napoleon Dynamite styled nerds in Adidas gear playing with model trains. That's it. Rave reviews from critics and fans alike, sales went through the roof too.

A lot of people try to ride on the coattails of this 'viral' phenomenon but fail miserably. It is my personal opinion that this is due to them being trend followers interested only in making a quick buck rather than actually understanding their audience or what is going on. Often, a magic trick isn't so magical once you explain it.


ksl, about Internet advertising, there is an incredible amount of information and opposing views on what it is, what works and what doesn't. The simplest way to look at it is to just see the Internet as just another medium - you can have static print equivalents, dynamic TVC style video clips, you can have classified type direct response ads and everything in between. Even this website is simply a great big convoluted ad for our Real Estate overlords.

For someone who likes easy data, statistics and quick returns (if any), this is the best way to approach it. Quite frankly, it is enough for small businesses and some B2B services. Just be wary of people who claim SEO is the cure for cancer.

On the other hand, the Internet can also be a virtual Wonderland for companies who can think like Alice. If you believe that a brand is more than a pretty logo, that your consumers are more than cash cows waiting to be milked, then you will need to find your Cheshire cat who can show you the rabbit hole.
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Postby ksl » Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:09 am

(it doesn't try to sell anything?)
If it isn't trying to sell anything, why do people relate chocolate to energy?

Maybe not many Asians will relate to it, but i guarantee you, that over 300 million or more around the world do know the connection between explosive energy and chocolate, and especially involved in endurance sports of all kinds, in fact chocolate is in almost all survival rations be it on sea, land or air...you will almost always find a tin of 5 bars of chocolate stashed away! I can remember Tiffin and cadburys being my favorites in the military!

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Postby banana » Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:28 am

ksl wrote:
(it doesn't try to sell anything?)
If it isn't trying to sell anything, why do people relate chocolate to energy?

Maybe not many Asians will relate to it, but i guarantee you, that over 300 million or more around the world do know the connection between explosive energy and chocolate, and especially involved in edurance sports of all kinds....


In a market where there are more varieties of snack bars than species of animals not on the endangered list, it's quite safe to say that Cadbury isn't positioning their flagship milk chocolate as an energy bar. Besides, they have their own line of specialist bars like Boost, why dilute the message?
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Postby ksl » Tue, 17 Jun 2008 1:38 am

banana wrote:
ksl wrote:
(it doesn't try to sell anything?)
If it isn't trying to sell anything, why do people relate chocolate to energy and gorillas? Have a look where the cocoa plant grows, although I'm not sure if the gorilla does have a staple diet of cocoa leaves, it may prefer the chocolate :)

Maybe not many Asians will relate to it, but i guarantee you, that over 300 million or more around the world do know the connection between explosive energy and chocolate, and especially involved in endurance sports of all kinds....


In a market where there are more varieties of snack bars than species of animals not on the endangered list, it's quite safe to say that Cadbury isn't positioning their flagship milk chocolate as an energy bar. Besides, they have their own line of specialist bars like Boost, why dilute the message?


I think you miss the point of chocolate, brand name "cadbury" and competition, and the positioning of products...along with target segmentation...Chocolate no matter what brand is related to high energy food, The flag ship as you call it, is probably older than you are, and like everything else, needs to be reinvented, new products, for new times, the game is not just about the "brand" it's about market share and the product mix, to maximise the ROI...The flag ship of the chocolate bar is not only a reminder who is the best brand on the market, because it wouldn't be, if it relied on the flag alone!

In this health conscious period of years, nothing is more important than energy and health chocolate can contribute to both, do your home work and you will see that chocolate is the food industry, When milk is added to dark chocolate it reduces the health benefits, so they do not promote health in milk choc's. Dark Chocs reduce cholesterol!

Of course they are in the business of selling chocolate and not health or nutrition, boost is a minor attempt to penetrate the younger sector between 16 and 24 and was only successful in Australia after a year, snacking being a very important trend of food related products, the image of chocolate history goes back to the jungles of Africa and the cocoa tree.

Cadbury Boost offers an energy pick me up, a snack that helps you keep doing the things you love to do and is targeted at male consumers aged 16-24 with a bulls eye of 19 year olds.

You surprise me, although, I don't expect you to understand the marketing strategies or sales peaks of products, or competitors, but one thing is certain if you did, it would improve your understanding, that cadbury products are versatile and are skilled at conveying the message. be it romance, with a box of milk tray, it would not be a gorilla exploding in energy to beat its bongo drums!

Take a look at the milk tray advert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB78ldUTClI

The message was very clear, but you and addadud never so the point, Okay don't admit it.. and believe it or not it was aimed at a wider audience from 16 years of age to a 100 years or more! And that my dear friend is why they had record sales!

Flying the flag now and again does the trick, how bout a MARS a DAY makes you WORK, REST & PLAY, I suppose that is not related to energy too :roll: Also choco bar with caramel

The same could be identified with the gorilla ad :wink: Energy only Chocolate Energy in my opinion and a direct advert for boosting sales of all product lines of cadbury's.

Here this will give you another angle of the business perspective of reworking the brand

http://www.cadbury.co.uk/EN/CTB2003/lea ... case_study

Of course it's only my opinion, because of what i perceived by watching the gorilla, but i have also been consuming cadbury for well over 50 years, and i know the brand quite well, that's why I got the message, and you guy's didn't I believe.

I also know the 4 or 5 competitors pretty well too and all are generally energy related. Let's face it they don't have much else too sell, all the crispy and crunchy nuts, are functional food delivery with one aim, to sell chocolate, we can probably agree, that all foods are energy, hence a gorilla advertising Cadbuty products. Chocolate being the focus point, not the products of food, that they cover, and considering the very high energy of chocolate above, what it covers, i would still say ENERGY, Cadbury stands for energy, so before an aged couple retires for the night, a piece of cadbury chocolate, may just give them the edge they need for a holy reunion (My my Cadbury's did it again love) How romantic, that could be a good advert too! :lol:

Addadude is spot on with his approach to advertising, in my opinion, but like i said before about passing an advert to graphic designers to ask for their opinion, everyone one of them will have something to contribute, for their own reasons, and may never pick up, what its saying, or cannot grasp it. For the psyche to kick in we must first understand the culture like a local, and that isn't always easy for foreigners to be on the same communication wavelength, even though we are all using the same senses.

We see things differently, and we smell them differently too, what is a repulsive smell to a Chinese maybe not to an Englishman and vis a vis, these senses need tuning to the environment we live in or are working for, that is also why we don't see many top Asian brands competing in the west, they are Asian focussed, with an automatic presumption that many Westerners will not change to like it or even try it, so they target the Asian sector.

For some reason there is a slight fear of Internationalsing and I do blieve that some fault lies in the difficulty of finding good graphic advertising, with international perception, or it comes with too high of a cost, for a foreign business to risk.

The reason i say this is simply because there are some incredible Asian products on the market, that can sell in the western world, with a different make over. (yes I know, long winded) :oops: but i wouldn't be ksl if it wasn't :P

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Postby banana » Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:21 am

First of all, I didn't say you were wrong. We were just talking about different things. More on this in a bit.

Just a few things to point out:

Chocolate, while an energy food, has a relatively low glycemic index. Especially Cadbury Milk Chocolate. From memory, it's around 50. What that means is that the energy it gives out is slower, over a length of time and not explosive.

Cocoa and chocolate are associated more with South America, where it originates from, and Switzerland. West Africa may produce most of the cocoa we consume today but that has to do with corporate influence and not really in the public psyche.

That is a regular drumset the gorilla is playing, not bongos :P

I have no idea what you're trying to prove with the case study or the milk tray ad.

You sound more racist than understanding, with your spiel about Asians. But that's ok, successful men are mostly a little racist. :lol:

--//--

Like you said, Cadbury's competitors are also about chocolate. Which means the energy/food/nutrition thing, while a fundamental aspect of the product, is probably not the unique selling point. Otherwise that would be akin to car manufacturers saying "we got 4 wheels!" or "we get you from point A to point B!" (actually this could lead to a pretty decent tagline with more thought). No, car manufacturers go "our 4 wheels are more stylish!" or "we get you from point A to point B fast/fun/cheap!".

What you're saying is valuable though. It gives an insight into how some businessmen think. And while this thinking will not lead to ads like that being produced, it provides a guide, a reminder to creatives that it's not for an art exhibition. ;)
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:28 am

Why do I feel like I'm falling asleep on a bloody merry-go-round trying to read the last couple of pages of this thread? :???: :P

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Postby banana » Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:33 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Why do I feel like I'm falling asleep on a bloody merry-go-round trying to read the last couple of pages of this thread? :???: :P


Perhaps some drinking vinegar will perk you up! :P
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:36 am

OH CRAP! Now another page of prose! Sorry ksl, just can't help sometimes taking the mickey! And 'nana giving you the opening as well! :shock: :lol:

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:44 am

ksl, I get the feeling I would learn a lot reading your posts, but just can't bring myself to read those looooooooooooong essays. Maybe you could just highlight the good parts for me, eh? :P

banana wrote:Chocolate, while an energy food, has a relatively low glycemic index. Especially Cadbury Milk Chocolate. From memory, it's around 50. What that means is that the energy it gives out is slower, over a length of time and not explosive.

You just sold me chocolate, you advertising scum. :lol:


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