Singapore Expats Forum

NS (and more) for a PR who wants to leave SG.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 29 Jun 2008 10:18 am

penguin23 wrote:So it seems that the only way to get your (male) children out of Singapore NS liability is to give up your own SPR status before they are born, and just go on Employment Pass all the way. The child will also be need to be registered as a foreigner, and be on LT SVP / Dependant/Student Pass all the way until he completes his studies and gets a job, at which point he can apply for PR status on his own merit (as a first generation SPR)

The child does not automatically get PR status, you have to apply for it.

from the ICA site wrote:Main applicants who are granted PR status under the first generation Professionals/Technical Personnel and Skilled Workers (PTS) Scheme or the Investor Scheme are exempted from NS. Male children who are granted PR status under their parents' sponsorship are liable for NS upon reaching 16 1/2 years old.

NS-liable PRs are expected to serve NS. Should they renounce or lose their PR status without serving or completing full-time NS, this would have an adverse impact on any application by them to work or study in Singapore.

Male ex-Singapore Citizens and ex-Singapore Permanent Residents who are granted Singapore PR status are liable to be called up for NS regardless of the type of PR status they are granted.


I wonder though if there are practical issues with this approach, as this involves renouncing your SPR status. I read from other blogs that this can involve job loss (?)

As noted above, you don't have to give up your own SPR, you just don't make you son an SPR. However, that also will impact his schooling and schooling costs as well. As the same facilities have different cost structures depending on the status of the child.

The loss of Job is because there are no levies on EP holders (other than "S" passes & WPs). By getting PR your company incurs additional costs. By giving up your PR (thereby also causing the CPF board to refund any monies in your CPF accounts) will generally not cause you to lose your job but probably will result in your not getting an EP approved (same result - different route).

I hope fellow forumers can comment on both my points above


SMS

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Postby penguin23 » Sun, 29 Jun 2008 4:36 pm

Thank you for the speedy reply, I can see now that this system is watertight, and every foreigner that takes up SPR status effectively seals the NS liability of his male children as long as the PR status (of the parent) is still in force when the child is born.

I wonder, though if it is possible for a male child of a SPR to NOT be registered as SPR when born, and just be a foreigner (effectively necessitating the need of LTSVP or DP so long as the family unit is in Singapore). Will the male child then still have NS lliability (being a non-PR himself, but nonetheless a child of an SPR?)

Re job loss, I always thought the refund of CPF monies upon renounciation of SPR status is voluntary (rather than compulsory), so in itself should not cause job loss , but what you are saying here is that applying for EP after renouncing SPR status is generally a bad idea and is likely to be rejected?

Sorry if the questions sound convoluted. Again, much appreciate your views/advice.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:56 am

It's a shame you didn't bother to read my first reply in it's entirety. I have already answered your question.

Male children who are granted PR status under their parents' sponsorship are liable for NS upon reaching 16 1/2 years old.


What does that statement suggest to you? It means the choice is elective and not mandatory (that's what sponsorship means).

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Postby penguin23 » Mon, 30 Jun 2008 3:57 pm

I missed the implications of your earlier reply, thank you for having the patience in making this crystal clear. I have learnt a lot from reading the articles in this forum.

It is truly enlightening to understand what the implications behind the choices facing an SPR parent-to-be (my wife is Singaporean), I understand now thus:

If my son is registered as Singaporean, then there is no way of escaping NS liability since Singapore Citizenship renounciation can only be done after discharging one's NS liabilities (usually at 21).

If my son is registered as a foreigner and sponsored as an SPR, then I effectively seal his NS liability, unless my whole family migrates while he is still young (before 13?), and my son renounces his SPR status then. I know this makes him an NS defaulter, but I have learnt from previous posts that he may be allowed to return and work in Singapore if he chooses to, by serving NS upon his return (since the child presumably cannot be held fully responsible for his parents' actions in making him leave SG). This "concession" is apparently not available to NS defaulters who recounce their PR-ships relatively late (after 16?), so they will be arrested on their arrival at any Singapore port of entry in the future.

If my son is registered as a foreigner, and not sponsored for PR, then he escapes NS, but will be relatively disadvantaged once enrolled under the MOE school system, due to lower (effectively lowest) priority during pri/kindergarden/Sec sch/JC enrolment and much higher school fees. He will also need LTSVP/DP/SP to remain in Singapore throughout his life, until he graduates, finds a job and appplies for SPR status on his own merit, thus making him a first generation PR.

I am going to choose the last option. If my son feels, at some point in the future, to adopt Singapore as his home and to defend it with his life, I will then sponsor him for SPR, let him serve NS and be a Singaporean.

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Postby Frisco » Sat, 07 Aug 2010 11:57 am

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Postby beppi » Sat, 07 Aug 2010 2:18 pm

penguin23 wrote:If my son is registered as Singaporean, then there is no way of escaping NS liability since Singapore Citizenship renounciation can only be done after discharging one's NS liabilities (usually at 21).

[...]

If my son is registered as a foreigner, and not sponsored for PR, then he escapes NS, but will be relatively disadvantaged once enrolled under the MOE school system, due to lower (effectively lowest) priority during pri/kindergarden/Sec sch/JC enrolment and much higher school fees. He will also need LTSVP/DP/SP to remain in Singapore throughout his life, until he graduates, finds a job and appplies for SPR status on his own merit, thus making him a first generation PR.

I am going to choose the last option. If my son feels, at some point in the future, to adopt Singapore as his home and to defend it with his life, I will then sponsor him for SPR, let him serve NS and be a Singaporean.


The kid of a Singapore citizen (your wife) born in Singapore is automatically Singapore citizen.
The only chance to escape that is for her to give birth outside of Singapore, in which case citizenship needs to be applied for (i.e. you have a choice). Whether your kid then has a chance to get other long term visa for Singapore (enabling him to live here, i.e. your preferred option) or a PR on his own merit later is beyond my knowledge, but can be expected to be difficult, since it's obvious why you chose this route - and the gahmen won't like it.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 07 Aug 2010 7:17 pm

Frisco wrote:My husband and I are both Singaporeans. We left the country for USA about 18 years ago and subsequently have 3 sons, all born in the US.

Are you both still holding SG and US PP? If yes, you are not allowed to hold dual citizenship. You are committing perjury when you renewed your SG PP as stated in the application for SG PP renewal
1st Boy: 15-years-old, obtained Singapore citizenship by descent. Visited Singapore just once when he was about 20-months-old, using a US passport. Never obtained Singapore IC, passport, nothing at all, other than Singapore citizenship certificate by descent.
Did your son apply Exit Permit when he turned 13 to allow him to stay overseas for the purpose of study. If not, then your son has committed an offence under Chap 93 of the Enlistment Act and Section 33 of the same act

2nd Boy: 9-years-old, obtained Singapore citizenship by descent. Never travel out of the US before. Never obtained Singapore IC, passport, nothing at all, other than Singapore citizenship certificate by descent.

Make sure he apply EP when he turn 13

3rd Boy: 3-years-old, US citizen only.

My Problems:
1. My husband and I both obtained US citizenship 3 years ago,
?

However, my husband and I want to go back to Singapore for retirement. We were both born and grew up in Singapore. My Singapore passport has since expired, and I want to have it renewed. Will Singapore renew my passport, and allow me back to live?

Yes you can . Go the Singapore Mission in US. Show proof of expired SG PP and SG BC. They will ask your 3 years Tax Assessment from to date. They will also ask if you hold US PP. You have to choose.

2. My children were all born in the US, and will have a majority of their formative years here. I want them to be able to work and live in Singapore when my husband and I go back for retirement. Yet I want them to retain their US citizenship and be able to return here to work and reside here if it is their choice, since the US is their birth place, and the country where they will have grown up in.

You have to choose as SG Constitution does not allow dual citizenship. The best route is they return to serve their NS at 18 and at 21 renounce their SG citizenship. By doing this they can still come to SG and work under EP based on their merits. It will look good in their CV as they have contributed in the National Security of Singapore. PR & SG Citizenship impossible once renounced

My husband went through NS himself, and sees the merits of going through the training. We do not mind sending all our boys back to Singapore for NS if that will give them Singapore PR to live and work there if that is what they want in the future.

No PR, EP only if meets criteria. Not even LTVSP as they will be above 21 age band

But in my understanding, my children will still have to give up Singapore citizenship, even after going through NS, if they want to keep their US citizenship, am I right?

Correct

3. One month ago, after reading many threads here about the vital need to obtain deferment from NS, I contacted CMPB to request for an exit permit for my eldest son.

I did not ask for deferment pending on renouncing Singapore citizenship, but instead for deferment till my son reaches 21 years of age to make the decision for himself. Have I done the right thing here?

Yes, you have done the right thing. Did you get the EP on line go to www.ns.sg If he does not have an EP or serve the NS by 21. He will automatically lose SG Citizenship as he need to take an oath of allegiance to SG when he turn 21

Thank you and I appreciate any constructive ideas and help.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 07 Aug 2010 7:28 pm

penguin23 wrote::

If my son is registered as Singaporean, then there is no way of escaping NS liability since Singapore Citizenship renounciation can only be done after discharging one's NS liabilities (usually at 21).

Correct

If my son is registered as a foreigner and sponsored as an SPR, then I effectively seal his NS liability, unless my whole family migrates while he is still young (before 13?), and my son renounces his SPR status then

Incorrect as wife is a Sger as Beppi has stated. The only way is give birth overseas. Try LTVSP under your name but they will ask your marriage cert which will stick out like a sore thumb
. I know this makes him an NS defaulter, but I have learnt from previous posts that he may be allowed to return and work in Singapore if he chooses to, by serving NS upon his return
Correct if he serves NS
(since the child presumably cannot be held fully responsible for his parents' actions in making him leave SG). This "concession" is apparently not available to NS defaulters who recounce their PR-ships relatively late (after 16?), so they will be arrested on their arrival at any Singapore port of entry in the future.
You got it all wrong. under PTS scheme and Enlistment act Chap 93 and Singapore Consitution Cap 126 2nd Gen PR and Sger are liable for NS. The parent will be harbouring the child. The child will definitely be fined and jail time if need be and still need to serve NS. I do not know how you came about "concession" thing which I never heard b4 while serving the army for considerable time in the 70s

If my son is registered as a foreigner, and not sponsored for PR, then he escapes NS, but will be relatively disadvantaged once enrolled under the MOE school system, due to lower (effectively lowest) priority during pri/kindergarden/Sec sch/JC enrolment and much higher school fees. He will also need LTSVP/DP/SP to remain in Singapore throughout his life, until he graduates, finds a job and appplies for SPR status on his own merit, thus making him a first generation PR.

Correct this is the only route you can takeunder student pass. To sponsor him for SPR no way. He has to apply under himself after finish school and getting EP for employment under PTS scheme like yourself

I am going to choose the last option. If my son feels, at some point in the future, to adopt Singapore as his home and to defend it with his life, I will then sponsor him for SPR, let him serve NS and be a Singaporean.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby Frisco » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 10:46 pm

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 11:13 pm

Not really. The gahmen's mentality has always been "If you you ain't for us, you gotta be against us!" So, if you were a Citizen and renounced, then you must be against them. Why should they let someone who is against them come back to the country and welcome them with open arms? :P :-|

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 4:55 am

Frisco wrote:MS -- Thank you for your answers.

I think I know what to do now.

Disappointed to know how ex-citizens are treated by the country.


If I read your earlier POST, you are not an EX SG Citizen per se. You are still a Sger as you have not renounce your SG Citizenship at all.

If you still wants to return to SG after this years and yet wants your children to stay here and have that choice.
Advise them to serve NS and then renounce SG or US citzenship.
I am not sure if the US Citizenship can be re applied after renounciation or not.

I have children too whom are much older than yours, We made this decision on behalf of them. I know you want them to have choices but given the situation , you just have to make do with what you have in front of you. Going forward, I did not regret what I did for them although I served my NS during the 70s and made a career out of it.
There will never be who is right or wrong. Just make sure you follow the rules to the T and do not get trap with the myriad of regulation which will make their lives difficult in the future when they are NOT allowed to step into SG for something that we as parent did not do properly.Even if you make them renounce or make them do NS as long as you do it properly , they can always come back to visit you. To work or regain PR is a different kettle of fish altogether.
Good Luck with yout endeavour
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Postby Frisco » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 5:02 am

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Postby Frisco » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 5:05 am

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 11:44 am

Why was that quote meant for me? I'm well aware of the quote and all then information contained therein and on this forum as well. I have no problems and neither does my son with regards to his obligations and rights and duties and the import of all of this to his "global" future.....

He's not about to burn any bridges behind him. Are you?

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Postby Frisco » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 2:02 pm

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