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Postby andy21 » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 2:21 pm

POOLECJ wrote:Helping others in distress with expectation of "complete" appreciation is a prideful act and is not being carried out with love for others but love for one self. Your comments have spin'd what i said and insinuate i suggest we help others for appreciation, which is 100% contrary to my believe.


Oh, not to worry, that comment was not directed at you, but at one of the most basic tenets of your religion (and many others of course). I have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, right? No two ways about that right? That a condition of this manner be attached before rendering help to any particular individual quite simply does sit well with me.

If my analogy strikes you as being inappropriate, please really point it out to me. Someone next to me gets involved in a serious accident, the possibility of death and pain are very real. Is it reasonable of me to expect thanks from the victim before I render any kind of assistance?

I do not expect the red carpet for mocking or disbelieving in God. I do not expect a place for me in heaven. I simply hope not to be put to the sword for being so.

POOLECJ wrote:I don't even try to understand God's ways, i'd be a fool to think I could understand a God who created something so wonderous and powerful in this universe. We only use like 10-15% of our small brain, how can we even begin to try and anlyze everything, we can't.


Fair enough, many things we couldn't possibly understand, like why animals in the wild seem to be able to predict natural disasters before they occur, or how someone like George W Bush got handed the keys to the world's dealiest nuclear arsenal. I think it is only fair though, that we as human beings never use that as an excuse to not try.

And selfish is term that is extremely loaded when applied as a broad brush to all of humanity, and it's use should be extremely judicious.

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Postby andy21 » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 2:28 pm

QRM wrote:Do church goers actually believe Jesus walked on water, and manged to make hundreds of tuna sandwiches from a small basket, or they accept its more of a story with urns full of artistic license designed to drive home a message to the uneducated populace of the time.


Some do, although I have long since abandoned the idea of using science to disprove, or prove religion or vice versa. It was very interesting how I was at a chirch service once and the minister's topic of the day was that the whole Noah's Ark event was in fact scientifically, archaeologically and geologically sound. It was quite astounding.

Nevertheless, there is a question that has always bugged me.

I do not know where heaven is, I'm not even certain it exists. But let's just assume it does.

Why on earth do we have this world that's full of pain, suffering and clearly selfish people when there is a whole other world out there that is the opposite of all that's bad with this one?

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Postby QRM » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 3:35 pm

andy21 wrote:
QRM wrote:
I do not know where heaven is, I'm not even certain it exists.


YOU will know when YOU find it, YOU can make it as far or as near as YOU want.

Those in robes asking the congregation to listen out for a whole truck load of locusts heading their way, only to be avoided if you follow the David Blane of the Middle East.

Its the threats of hot Brimstone showers that I find a bit off putting.

If there was no pain and suffering then there would be no need to do any good to avoid it or make the world a better place.

We may as well all be an Asparagus

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Postby ksl » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 4:06 pm

First, religion is a set of beliefs practiced by a group of followers. over the years the word religion has been misinterpreted as the definition of human activities within a church body. What you are referring to (sexual offences, hypocrites, etc.) is just plain and simply unacceptable human behaviour driven by the sinful desires of those humans. It is not the religion or church body making these people do this, it's their imperfect sinful desires.


In regards to the last several posts, I appreciate the explanations, although I come full circle..to thinking what is right and what is wrong, in accordance with the laws, that are forced upon us.

The church I also believe to be a wonderful place of worship, the problem for me, is that it is sinful, to expect a human, not to be human. Not only that, there are far too many variables in human deviation for the human race to live up to the expectations of what is only right.

The imbalance of chemicals within the brain, the genetics and DNA is a failure in the whole society of the universe...Russian roulette is played every day, and we know it is wrong...the fight between good & bad, is all a balancing act in my opinion, between what is good and bad...

The Church however have condoned these acts of badness for centuries, the place of worship is about the closest place to heaven & hell, because that's where it all happens.

Child abuse is rife the world over, and taboo in most Countries, I have no faith in human behaviour myself, because I have seen far too much suffering, and far too many psychopaths, that strive for their own survival.

Nobody wants war, but everyone wants the power to control, Governments control by fear, for example if you do not do NS you are punished. The armed service in itself is an organisation of brainwashing and indoctrination, so no matter what beliefs of people, its all contradictions that are thrown back at us, to live with.

We are all aware why religions are formed, and its the indoctrination, that I'm against, simplicity in itself tells me what is right and what is wrong...

If i see someone in need of help, I will help, without reservations because it is only right to do so...there should be no need to indoctrinate what is right and what is wrong, because this is not a choice human behaviour can control..so basically you are inviting the devil into the house of worship, and condoning the acts of wrongness has sins.

Breaking all the legalities of Justice to protect the offenders. The problem with sects, organisations, and religions is very easy to see, the ultimate power in preaching, to lead a congregation rules, and there will be an hierarchy of leadership and management.

We are not treated as equals, even though we are lead to believe that we are, basically I see it all has a big con to create a power base.

It's very possible there is reincarnation, but what does it matter, if we have no recollection of our past or future, for the 80 to 90 years, that life may extend itself, it is nothing, compared to the life around us, humans are insignificant, because the universe rules, not a god.

The universe will react, to wipe out all living creatures, when it needs too, and life will begin a new, illusion and history will repeat itself...what is basically wrong, is that governments have made the roles, of government for a purpose, mainly to follow the leader, be it right or wrong, fear installed on the weak, will result in power, the more humane and benevolent the powers are, will dictate the progress of growth and development.

I was disillusioned, by my own government, after serving my Country, only to find out, that they had passed a motion in government to justify the poisioning of their own soldiers, for what i see has basically a way of making money for some very high up people within MOD and government.

Its not a lie, because its now out in the open, over 20.000 soldiers were experimented on over the years, 4000 have been fighting for justice.

There is no justice, because MOD is protected by the hierarchy, they cannot be sued because they say, it was all done in the interests of national security.

My point of full circle and beliefs, means it is a pointless discussion, because there can only be one of two sides to chose from.

The right side or the wrong side, many will say this is far too simplistic, and i will reply with, okay I will shoot you, then that is one problem out of the way.

Rapists should be castrated, murders executed, thieves have their hand chopped off, but who's going to do it, yes the devil :wink: Because he works as one of the same, he leads like all leaders, they lead because people need leading, people need a system of hierachy and fear, that is the life of the human.

I visited a few new age Churches in UK and was so shocked at the antics of brainwashing, the shouting and screaming disturbed me, although I am a non practising catholic, I have never had any wish to change my title of religion blessed upon me, by my parents, I respect their wish, and I respect all religions providing they preach the good and not the bad.

Ego must be the fundimental issue and problemtatic force of all people, this we see all too often, Ego will destroy the soul, and devour the good, what is left is contempt for all below thier privillaged ranking, the lack of diplomacy stands out, like a sore thumb in many sects, orgs and religions. Sheep should follow and ask no questions, diplomacy is an issue in itself.
andy21 wrote:
QRM wrote:Do church goers actually believe Jesus walked on water, and manged to make hundreds of tuna sandwiches from a small basket, or they accept its more of a story with urns full of artistic license designed to drive home a message to the uneducated populace of the time.


Some do, although I have long since abandoned the idea of using science to disprove, or prove religion or vice versa. It was very interesting how I was at a chirch service once and the minister's topic of the day was that the whole Noah's Ark event was in fact scientifically, archaeologically and geologically sound. It was quite astounding.

Nevertheless, there is a question that has always bugged me.

I do not know where heaven is, I'm not even certain it exists. But let's just assume it does.

Why on earth do we have this world that's full of pain, suffering and clearly selfish people when there is a whole other world out there that is the opposite of all that's bad with this one?


Heaven is whereever you want to feel it to be! The earth is full of pain, and suffering because we let it effect us. when in fact it we have a choice, to join in or not...again those that follow the path of evil will live evil, and those that follow the path of good, will be good.

Ocassionally we humans are attacked by evil and we have to choose, to join it, fear it, or fight it.

One cannot ignore it, that is not a choice, this we see good examples of in anti social behaviour settings, the animal in us, comes to a head, and we hunt in packs, to install fear for gain.

In your heart you know, so follow your heart. be it good or bad, you will reap the rewards. To ignore..you will also reap the rewards of ignoring which maybe fear.

Our impulses are stimulated by what we see and hear, so you need to filter the good from the bad...these have been there since humans inherited the earth, the only thing of change is the communication methods :)

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Ha Ha

Postby POOLECJ » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 7:06 pm

You are a funny dude.

Probably people 200 years ago though there was no way someone would actually walk on the moon or humans could actually figure out how to swap someone's heart with another.

Dude, please look up into the universe with all the far off galaxies and begin to tell me you have any clue what the universe is about. walking on water by our creator is minor to what he has created, explain how and why earth was put in place to orbit perfectly to have half sun and half moonlight. the minor, yes minor when compared to the universe, were just enough to test minds like yours. open your eyes, do you think we just popped out of apes and suddenly had emotions, feelings, and a conscience?

You are actually speaking a nugget of truth that there are some who join churches for social reasons, but by far the minority.

Jesus did his miracles for reasons of making points to his disciples and followers, lessons for them to live by. bit difference in dragon princess islands where there is no logical purpose.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 8:15 pm

QRM wrote:Do church goers actually believe Jesus walked on water, and manged to make hundreds of tuna sandwiches from a small basket

I once heard a very rational and plausible explanation for the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. I'm not sure if it's true, but it's not impossible. And as far as I'm concerned, anything that is not impossible is possible and should not be written off without good reason:

Many of the people who followed Jesus to wherever he was would have been smart enough to pack the equivalent of a small sandwich for themselves. Only problem is, many others didn't and no one was about to share their portion with strangers. Until Jesus told his disciples to take out whatever they had and pass it around. Once somebody started sharing, others took out whatever they had and shared too. The loaves and fishes were there all along, hidden away. It took an act of love / generosity to ignite the spark that brought out the best in everyone.

From my understanding of human psychology this is a very sound explanation. There is a tipping point after which things gain momentum and huge changes occur. But it takes the first few courageous ones to tip the balance.

And if there is a rational explanation for one miracle, then there are probably equally rational explanations for the rest too. I don't believe in voodoo Christianity. I actually believe it is far more scientific and rational than many of us realise.

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Postby QRM » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 8:37 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
QRM wrote:Do church goers actually believe Jesus walked on water, and manged to make hundreds of tuna sandwiches from a small basket

I once heard a very rational and plausible explanation for the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. I'm not sure if it's true, but it's not impossible. And as far as I'm concerned, anything that is not impossible is possible and should not be written off without good reason:

Many of the people who followed Jesus to wherever he was would have been smart enough to pack the equivalent of a small sandwich for themselves. Only problem is, many others didn't and no one was about to share their portion with strangers. Until Jesus told his disciples to take out whatever they had and pass it around. Once somebody started sharing, others took out whatever they had and shared too. The loaves and fishes were there all along, hidden away. It took an act of love / generosity to ignite the spark that brought out the best in everyone.

From my understanding of human psychology this is a very sound explanation. There is a tipping point after which things gain momentum and huge changes occur. But it takes the first few courageous ones to tip the balance.

And if there is a rational explanation for one miracle, then there are probably equally rational explanations for the rest too. I don't believe in voodoo Christianity. I actually believe it is far more scientific and rational than many of us realise.


See that makes more sense, true or not its more palatable WIMH you should start a church. :lol:

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 9:00 pm

QRM wrote:See that makes more sense, true or not its more palatable WIMH you should start a church. :lol:

Nah, not me. I ain't sharin my tuna sandwich wi nobody! :lol:

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Re: Ha Ha

Postby ksl » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 9:19 pm

POOLECJ wrote:You are a funny dude.

Probably people 200 years ago though there was no way someone would actually walk on the moon or humans could actually figure out how to swap someone's heart with another.

Dude, please look up into the universe with all the far off galaxies and begin to tell me you have any clue what the universe is about. walking on water by our creator is minor to what he has created, explain how and why earth was put in place to orbit perfectly to have half sun and half moonlight. the minor, yes minor when compared to the universe, were just enough to test minds like yours. open your eyes, do you think we just popped out of apes and suddenly had emotions, feelings, and a conscience?

You are actually speaking a nugget of truth that there are some who join churches for social reasons, but by far the minority.

Jesus did his miracles for reasons of making points to his disciples and followers, lessons for them to live by. bit difference in dragon princess islands where there is no logical purpose.


Dude, please look up into the universe with all the far off galaxies and begin to tell me you have any clue what the universe is about
How many people on earth have said exactly the same as you since, since Adam & Eve did their thing?

suddenly had emotions, feelings, and a conscience?
Yes and women were clever enough to shag any man, that provided the most food and protection, for survival, funny how they are still at it

walking on water by our creator is minor to what he has created, explain how and why earth was put in place to orbit perfectly to have half sun and half moonlight.
Your not actually telling me you believe that jesus walked on water and that he is responsible for the Universe. Have you read the one about father christmas.

The bible in my opinion is specifically designed to indoctrinate people like yourself, that believe what they read. I'm not saying there isn't a god, that didn't create the harmony of the universe, so I think you really misunderstood my post altogether.

What i am saying is that life is an illusion, there is only right & wrong, peace & war, and an opposite for everything, although you are asking me, for what actually? because i gave up looking for answers long ago and except it for what it is "Nothing" we are insignificant. But the planet is not.

personally we believe what we want to believe and we follow those, that we want to follow, like the Beatles and rolling stones... why is it, that humans are so weak, that they have to latch on to role models and issues, they don't understand, then look back on their lives and admit to being naive and indulgent, and following the flow.

I think if you was to really open your eyes, you would see nothing, but that, that you want to see...it's all part of the universe and the illusion, the time warp, between the savages and the civilised, it will always exist

History will continue to repeat itself, and it will not matter, what you or I think.

And if there is a rational explanation for one miracle, then there are probably equally rational explanations for the rest too. I don't believe in voodoo Christianity. I actually believe it is far more scientific and rational than many of us realise.

Wimh : Well said! Although how can we rationalise the balance of the universe being so perfect, that it will also wipe out man, if need be, to repair itself of the damage caused by man.

POOLCJ:Jesus did his miracles for reasons of making points to his disciples and followers, lessons for them to live by. bit difference in dragon princess islands where there is no logical purpose
You mean just like the rules of law...There are no miracles my friend, only magicians or rational explanations in mainland China you will see more miracles than Jesus could ever find the time to do.

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Postby QRM » Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:12 pm

[quote="POOLECJ"]You are a funny dude.

Probably people 200 years ago though there was no way someone would actually walk on the moon or humans could actually figure out how to swap someone's heart with another.

POOLECJ You are doing the typical religious smoke screen, fudging facts and myths in an attempt to cover your tracks. You are now saying a man walking on the moon, and heart swap ops are a religious miracle? Then why don’t we see Apollo shape churches and people worshiping at the feet of altar of the great Armstrong?


Dude, please look up into the universe with all the far off galaxies and begin to tell me you have any clue what the universe is about.

I don’t have a clue and as it is so out of context to my everyday life I am not bothered by it, yes I am amazed by it all , but I wont loose sleep over it.

walking on water by our creator is minor to what he has created,

By assuming the man with the hi-tech floating Nike is the very same guy that created everything, in that one sentence you have brushed off all other religions as being irrelevant, so much for understanding and tolerance of fellow man. Do you even have a basic notion of what is around you ? Do you even know what Enuma Elish is all about and how it connects with the concept of creation?

Explain how and why earth was put in place to orbit perfectly to have half sun and half moonlight. the minor, yes minor when compared to the universe, were just enough to test minds like yours. open your eyes, do you think we just popped out of apes and suddenly had emotions, feelings, and a conscience?

Its nothing but basic religious brainwash hog wash, and a very amateur one at that. There are plenty of other planets that have equally odd configurations. I would rather have two moons that way we would not need to use up so much of GOD created natural resources seeing in the dark, it’s a pointless path to discuss, again another smoke screen

You are actually speaking a nugget of truth that there are some who join churches for social reasons, but by far the minority.

I would have thought they are in the majority but if someone can shed some light on real facts then I have discovered something new

Jesus did his miracles for reasons of making points to his disciples and followers, lessons for them to live by. bit difference in dragon princess islands where there is no logical purpose.

[color=blue]Hey don’t get me wrong I am all for people to have their own religious view, like I said before we all need crutches be it drink, drugs, or religion, but for you to come up with such a daft statement you are doing no favors for the religious camp. What do you mean there is no logical purpose, you tell that to the guys who live and work on that island. People who have visited the place say its lovely, to me that is logic enough to create it. Think about it, religion is about a far removed from “logical purpose”

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Postby POOLECJ » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 8:05 am

Probably people 200 years ago though there was no way someone would actually walk on the moon or humans could actually figure out how to swap someone's heart with another.

POOLECJ You are doing the typical religious smoke screen, fudging facts and myths in an attempt to cover your tracks. You are now saying a man walking on the moon, and heart swap ops are a religious miracle? Then why don’t we see Apollo shape churches and people worshiping at the feet of altar of the great Armstrong?

I'm sorry you misinterpreted my meaning. What i'm trying to explain is that what we think is impossible in our human brain is far from what is possible, using examples of things Man has done. In other words we are prone to think only those things books and our eyes things are possible. Did Hitler live? how do you know? just relying on pictures and words? he could have been fabricated, how can you be 100% sure Hitler was possible? you can't.

Dude, please look up into the universe with all the far off galaxies and begin to tell me you have any clue what the universe is about.

I don’t have a clue and as it is so out of context to my everyday life I am not bothered by it, yes I am amazed by it all , but I wont loose sleep over it.

Seems kind of impossible right?

walking on water by our creator is minor to what he has created,

By assuming the man with the hi-tech floating Nike is the very same guy that created everything, in that one sentence you have brushed off all other religions as being irrelevant, so much for understanding and tolerance of fellow man. Do you even have a basic notion of what is around you ? Do you even know what Enuma Elish is all about and how it connects with the concept of creation?

I try my best to love all people regardless of what they believe, I believe other religions are misguided yes, but doesn't make me feel the people are irrevelant. and I tolerate other religions. But how can I believe and faith in one religion and at the same time believe in something that counters my beliefs? doesn't make sense at all.

Explain how and why earth was put in place to orbit perfectly to have half sun and half moonlight. the minor, yes minor when compared to the universe, were just enough to test minds like yours. open your eyes, do you think we just popped out of apes and suddenly had emotions, feelings, and a conscience?

Its nothing but basic religious brainwash hog wash, and a very amateur one at that. There are plenty of other planets that have equally odd configurations. I would rather have two moons that way we would not need to use up so much of GOD created natural resources seeing in the dark, it’s a pointless path to discuss, again another smoke screen

hogwash, you are afraid to even try to explain the wonders of the universe, so you will reside in only what you have been taught by your teachers and read in your books. open your mind.

You are actually speaking a nugget of truth that there are some who join churches for social reasons, but by far the minority.

I would have thought they are in the majority but if someone can shed some light on real facts then I have discovered something new

well I did not see any real facts coming from your side on this one, so please share with me. I have been member of at least 7 churches through my travels and have spoken and prayed with hundreds or thousands of real people, I have personal experience to know the majority are real people seeking truth in this world.

Jesus did his miracles for reasons of making points to his disciples and followers, lessons for them to live by. bit difference in dragon princess islands where there is no logical purpose.

Hey don’t get me wrong I am all for people to have their own religious view, like I said before we all need crutches be it drink, drugs, or religion, but for you to come up with such a daft statement you are doing no favors for the religious camp. What do you mean there is no logical purpose, you tell that to the guys who live and work on that island. People who have visited the place say its lovely, to me that is logic enough to create it. Think about it, religion is about a far removed from “logical purpose”

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 9:18 am

Dude, you really need to learn how to use the quote button and formatting as your post is virtually impossible to understand what you wrote and what somebody else wrote. With that, I gave up trying to read it. Most of what you wrote before was just so much BS I figure I'm not really missing much here.

Having said that, if you find you are better off with your religion then I think that is great. More power to you. Revel in it if it makes you a better person BUT leave the sermonizing to others.

If somebody worships a tree in their back garden and it makes them a better person then that's the religion(?) THEY should follow. At the end of the day, religion is nothing more than a human made concept. If there were only one way, then there would only be one religion. What is Dog? Purely a human invention that allows weak minded people to be manipulated by stronger people with the gift of gab. It is something that allows the masses to have hope against hope and when at the end of their rope, allows them to tie a knot and hang on. But not all humans ARE weak-minded. Some do not need the emotional crutch that is religion as they believe in themselves and have no need for crutches, preferring instead to control their own actions and therefore their own destinies.

But this topic, like a couple of other, has been done to death on this forum........... :devil: The debil made me do it!

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Postby QRM » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 9:58 am

"Woo look how impossible the universe is", its all embarrassing school boy stuff, soon you will have images of a bearded old man manipulating planets like playdough.

Terms being used by you in your post, such as "Tolerated", "Misguided" "Sinful desires" "Need to weed out" are all starting to look a little bit worrying, on top of that you question if the holocaust existed.

Your own statement that "other religions conflicts with your beliefs", now that is the scary bit, those that have manipulated you, have manged to make you cross the Rubicon, that is the start of the slippery spiral to fanaticism, where everyone suffers.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:49 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:At the end of the day, religion is nothing more than a human made concept. If there were only one way, then there would only be one religion. What is Dog? Purely a human invention that allows weak minded people to be manipulated by stronger people with the gift of gab. It is something that allows the masses to have hope against hope and when at the end of their rope, allows them to tie a knot and hang on. But not all humans ARE weak-minded. Some do not need the emotional crutch that is religion as they believe in themselves and have no need for crutches, preferring instead to control their own actions and therefore their own destinies.

I know where you're coming from, and agree with the underlying philosophy. Allow me however to balance this cynical view with one that credits human nature a little more.

Religion is man's attempt to understand an inexplicable universe. To that extent it is good, a genuine search for meaning. As science unravels more of how the world works, religion becomes less 'necessary'. Projecting forward to the time when humans will understand everything, science and religion will be the same thing.

Of course, many 'religious leaders' have done their organisations no good by abusing their position. These have given religion as a political construct a bad name, and rightly so. But the pure sense of religion, the search for meaning, should be acknowledged. People are always going to search for meaning, and so there will always be religion. This search is not good nor bad, it is simply part of who we are.

So I would agree that political religion has done a lot of harm. But as a spiritual effort to find meaning, it is to be lauded for providing many people with a hypothesis - a starting point from which to test and refine our individual beliefs and arrive at a self-owned understanding.

The 'strong' people you refer to in your last sentence quoted above - did not all of them arrive at their current beliefs via some form of religious doctrine? Didn't all of us find out what we really believe by gradually realising what we don't believe? Religion does have its role, even in the belief system of those who deny it now.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 02 Aug 2008 9:05 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:Religion is man's attempt to understand an inexplicable universe.


While your deeper interpretations are probably correct, do you 'really' believe that the above statement is true of 90% or possibly higher of the church going population? Maybe that was the inception of religion, but I don't really believe the man in the street puts that much though into it. I feel it's an ingrained habit more than anything else, just like the hungry ghost festive activities starting to take place now. It more ingrained cultural habit than belief.

Wind In My Hair wrote:The 'strong' people you refer to in your last sentence quoted above - did not all of them arrive at their current beliefs via some form of religious doctrine? Didn't all of us find out what we really believe by gradually realising what we don't believe? Religion does have its role, even in the belief system of those who deny it now.


So I am expected to believe that 'strong' people would not have been strong if there wasn't religion to start with? I think that might be reaching a bit personally. :wink:


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