Faith

[road.not.taken]

[quote="QRM"][quote="cutiebutie"][quote="QRM"]

Here in Singapore there’s a new church popping up on every corner. Is the income to fund all these buildings coming from emotionally challenged people, who hand over their hard earn cash in the hope of a better life by blindly believing biblical myths?

It’s a question. If someone replies “ The local bishop is a bit of dab hand at black jack and reinvested the winnings in the new church”

[Wind In My Hair]

I've read this a few times since you wrote it W.I.M.H. and I think I've managed to sqeeze it into my tiny brain now. I reckon you've been here before ......................mm..and it's food for thought no doubt.....does it mean that I'm Godlik?! Cos I feel a spark of divinity...is it something like a hunger pain but happier ? Yeah this 'me myself and God' thing is a bit of alright !

Read it a few times eh? Even I don't take myself that seriously! Ok ok I'm honoured, and hope it's not just because the rooster is not in town.

Yes I've been there many times. I realise that I always come back to the same place but each time, I know better where I am. I've also learnt that I had to question EVERYTHING and build my own truth up from scratch. Only then could I really own it and believe it.

Hmm, will leave you to yourself and God and the divine spark now.

[ozchick]

I've also learnt that I had to question EVERYTHING and build my own truth up from scratch. Only then could I really own it and believe it.

Yeah today's scientists aren't working hard enough ! Why do we all have to learn from 'trial and error' and experience ?! In these enlightened times why can't we bequeath our knowledge and experiences to the ones we leave behind. It should be 'tranferable' !
Yes folks you read it here first ! This should be possible just as walking on the moon was possible.
Ooh the mind boggles....maybe my knowlege could go to the highest bidder...mm..yeah so who wants to be able to recite the states of America in alphabetical order ?! Yep, I could pass that on for $10SG or $8AUD wherever I happen to keel over !
He he ... Alaska, California, Colorado, Connecticut ............................
Or the lyrics to songs of the 60sand 70s- got LOTS of those in my tiny brain...la la la la.......

[ksl]

I've also learnt that I had to question EVERYTHING and build my own truth up from scratch. Only then could I really own it and believe it.

Yeah today's scientists aren't working hard enough ! Why do we all have to learn from 'trial and error' and experience ?! In these enlightened times why can't we bequeath our knowledge and experiences to the ones we leave behind. It should be 'tranferable' !
Yes folks you read it here first ! This should be possible just as walking on the moon was possible.
Ooh the mind boggles....maybe my knowlege could go to the highest bidder...mm..yeah so who wants to be able to recite the states of America in alphabetical order ?! Yep, I could pass that on for $10SG or $8AUD wherever I happen to keel over !
He he ... Alaska, California, Colorado, Connecticut ............................
Or the lyrics to songs of the 60sand 70s- got LOTS of those in my tiny brain...la la la la.......

60's & 70's music, now ya talking...how those emotional times kick in whenever i hear " Just my imagination" the smooching on the dance floor, with a feeling of romance blowing in the wind, although the circumstance left much to be desired.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org/KHKRH.htm

[sundaymorningstaple]

Boy are the folks in Alabama & Arkansas gonna be upset!

[ozchick]

Boy are the folks in Alabama & Arkansas gonna be upset!

Oh hells bells ! Yeah and Arizona...RIGHT ! Stick them on the bathroom wall and re learn the b_________s ! Jeesh.................I keep making these mistakes SMS.....not just typing errors but all sorts of stuff ! See ! That'll learn me - I stop eating chocolate to try and do YOUR latest trick and my brain shrivels to mush....sigh.....

[sierra2469alpha]

A devil's advocate takes the opposing view, an arrogant person is presumptuous and overbearing, defending his assumptions which he defends as 'opinion'.

Or "hers", it appears

[ozchick]

60's & 70's music, now ya talking...how those emotional times kick in whenever i hear " Just my imagination" the smooching on the dance floor, with a feeling of romance blowing in the wind, although the circumstance left much to be desired.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org/KHKRH.htm

You've lost me ......................"Just my imagination?"
And this link ? Sorry ksl.....trying to connect here but can not lah..............

[ksl]

60's & 70's music, now ya talking...how those emotional times kick in whenever i hear " Just my imagination" the smooching on the dance floor, with a feeling of romance blowing in the wind, although the circumstance left much to be desired.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org/KHKRH.htm

You've lost me ......................"Just my imagination?"
And this link ? Sorry ksl.....trying to connect here but can not lah..............

Ooops Sorry my fault, I was day dreaming at the time...back in the 60's I joined up in the military, so the 6o's music for me, brings back many memories some good some bad...in the early 70's I spent time in Northern Ireland.

So when i hear the music from that era, I think of the time, after working a 24 hr shift..half asleep, smooching away to "Just my imagination, running away with me" Temptations I think it was, in our local disco, the size of a double bedroom, with a handful of local talent, it was at a time when my marriage was on the rocks, and i couldn't do anything about it.

Its kind of living in different spheres of life all at the same time, the next minute, one is holding the head of a mate, because he's just been whacked by a sniper...

The memorial was of a few people, that got whacked and a few other mates.... So 60's and 70's music brings up quite a few emotions for me, but mostly i can say, its an era i loved, for all that went on, in the world..I met some real lovely people, that risked their lives, for peace and many of them Irish too....When i visit that site....I think what a sad old world we live in, history just keeps repeating itself, over and over, there is no end, because the movie we see, through our eyes...is the same...for all generations, although we only get to see, what we look for!

I know its a little confusing, so I don't expect you to fully grasp, my meaning, but I'm sure SMS and maybe a few oldies will.

[Mal_Ganus123]

Do you believe that in general it's all down to human instinct, of knowing what is right and what is wrong?

I agree in a similar sense. I believe in God, but I don't go to church. I stopped, after so many stories of abuses by the church, just like you talked about. I also felt that the church, though I believe is a great place of worship, hasn't being giving the right messages to keep the faith of the people (such as myself and many people I know) active.

I believe in prayers, songs of worships, but I avoid going to religious gatherings, because I feel that we are entitled to our own ways of worship, and our own beliefs.

I also noticed a common trend in which religion has started many wars, ancient up to today. But the mainstream of those war starters are Fanatics of religion.

No offense intended to anyone, and please don't preach benefits of going to church, etc to me, but I do like to hear others opinions.

[ksl]

I think it's very interesting to see the responses, and now, just to complicate matters, I was wondering just how many people, know, that others, are doing wrong and breaking the law, and think to themselves, shit I don't wish to get involved!

I ask this question, because of several reasons, but the main one is that, I'm born and raised in a community of survivors, and for me it's also difficult to say, where does one draw the line, be it pens or paper from work...and i know the line matters.
When i was younger, and visited my home in UK I was always approached, to purchase something, and had to make a point of saying, if its hot, i will turn you in, if I purchase it and find out. It was important from the start, to draw the line, between what was acceptable and what wasn't but the criminal in most cases is driven by the simplicity of crime against the punishment if caught.

The criminal doesn't care, he's eventually institutionalised, he cares only about the moment, the survival moment, high risk, high price to pay, prison is far from a deterrent in UK for many.

I feel with age, that my tolerance is limited and I can blow a fuse, quite rapidly, to say I have faith in people, would be a lie, people are the least trustworthy in my opinion, Life is very complexed and we have all lived in different dimensions of reality, I say reality, because I am still convinced, that we we see, is a figment of imagination, having faith for me, keeps me focussed on the right track of being a person of humanity...and yet humanity may not even exist, how can it?

Our emotions maybe touched and we feel a sense of sadness and sorrow, and my mind then goes into the cage, with my daughters hamsters, then i recall the memory of being imprisoned, 24 hrs a day, the shock is traumatic and when one pounds around a 2 X 1.5 mtr with 3 guys in it, many things flash through ones mind, especially with a homosexual psycho in the cell, having served his 18 years.

All the faith in the world doesn't help, it's a matter of survival, kill or be raped, the adrenalin rushes, around uncontrollable, through the veins, panic is clear, the warnings are given, and only destiny awaits. It's fear against fear, although one can say I have no fear, I will challenge anyone, to the death.

The principles of life are very strong, they are implanted at birth and indoctrination by parent's in childhood are at different levels, some don't care and some are moderate about upbringing and others maybe over the top.

I believe the question of faith appears only in severe need of help, and that many may just say, I have faith, although their faith is untested, and I'm sure that, in matters of emergency, the faith comes within, so I say god is a part of us, god is that part, that comes when life is in the balance, the god is ourselves, and our survival is against nature, and learning to respect the world, the earth, to fight over power and supremacy, is the death of mankind, and the destruction of the human race..
I'm happy that i have faith in my life time, although my strength is in my survival, to produce...and when i look back on the difficulties of life, i ask if it's all worth it.....and my conclusion is yes, no matter how bad the life, hope, brings happy moments, and nature destroys, them, and many parents and children really do suffer, the wrath of nature. which is cruel, in divorce, having faith in religion never helped them.

Having faith in themselves was probably the strength, that got them through, in the end, life is up and down, for many, yet if one stays on the right side, the downs become less frequent.

[POOLECJ]

I have also struggled with much of what ive read in this thread up. However, I just want to offer two things to consider.

First, religion is a set of beliefs practiced by a group of followers. over the years the word religion has been misinterpreted as the definition of human activities within a church body. What you are referring to (sexual offences, hypocrites, etc.) is just plain and simply unacceptable human behaviour driven by the sinful desires of those humans. It is not the religion or church body making these people do this, it's their imperfect sinful desires.

Yes, if you have faith in Jesus as your God then you should attend church. as long as their are humans on this planet they will always be there to spoil something good. but that is no reason to run away from a church body, in fact more reason to stay involved to weed out this behaviour. The disciples and Jesus spoke many words to the various churches in the biblical days about these bad behaviours.

Secondly, Budda was peaceful yes, but after readin his works and the red font of Jesus in the new testament one cannot say Jesus was not the most peaceful being ever to walk this earth. Jesus was truly 100% unconditional love, so much so he withstood a horrible death for us. not just death but constant ridicule.

If I'm right I will be in heaven if i have faith in him as he asks. If im wrong (which i dont believe) then I would have lived my life obeying the most perfect Man ever to walk the earth.

One last thing, there was mention of why so much pain in the earth and what God would allow this. wouldnt this be a question for Budda and every other religion? I can tell you what i believe, I believe our time on earth is but a blip on the screen of eternity and we as humans put far too much in the importance of our own lives. If we lived for others we would not be so selfish, and there we would have peace in our lives. Wars are waged due to selfishness, pride, greed. And not even the budhists are above war as they are demonstrating in thailand/cambodia fighting over a temple with machine guns.

Jesus is constantly mocked and ridiculed as the Bible prophesized he would. I challenge anyone to read his words in red font and tell me he is not the most peaceful ever to walk this earth, bar none.

[andy21]

one cannot say Jesus was not the most peaceful being ever to walk this earth. Jesus was truly 100% unconditional love, so much so he withstood a horrible death for us. not just death but constant ridicule.

Well, I along with all those who do not believe in him, and those who have not even heard of him have been condemned to an eternity of fiery damnation.

The day anyone helps someone else in severe distress (which it seems all of us unbelievers are in) only with the expectation of complete appreciation is the day hardly deserves the medal of mercy.

'If we lived for others we would not be so selfish, and there we would have peace in our lives. Wars are waged due to selfishness, pride, greed. And not even the budhists are above war as they are demonstrating in thailand/cambodia fighting over a temple with machine guns.'

You are making the assumption, not directly in this quote, but from the overall message of your post, that this is to be achieved by following Christ and his teachings. Also, you really would not like any one here to cite examples of far worse events precipitated directly in the name of God himself.

Do you consider it impossible that people are capable of behaving in a manner that is to the benefit of other human beings, without understanding, knowing or believing in the teachings of Christ, Buddha, the Prophet or anyone else?

One last thing, it is quite likely the result of my own ignorance of the teaching of Christ, and perhaps of every other major religion. As someone clearly steeped in the Chistian faith, and presumably understanding, maybe you could clear something up for me.

Following up on my initial topic, how do you justify God's condemning people to an eternity of, umm unpleasantness for being in fundamental disagreement with him?

[POOLECJ]

I am not going to attempt to step in God's shoes and judge others and determine who will and who will not serve eternity in fiery damnation. all I know is my path to eternal life is through him believe others is as well.

Helping others in distress with expectation of "complete" appreciation is a prideful act and is not being carried out with love for others but love for one self. Your comments have spin'd what i said and insinuate i suggest we help others for appreciation, which is 100% contrary to my believe.

Again, wrong, not my assumption. Whether you choose to follow Jesus or not the simple fact is we are selfish in nature and thus this starts all of humans problems. And yes, you can cite examples all day long of people doing things in Jesus name that were wrong, I have many myself. But herein lies the problem, the human element, humans can and will misinterpret everything. Many believers in the Bible did not follow Christ as he wished. Many false prophets will also come as proclaimed by Christ. The fact is humans are weak, sinful and selfish in nature. we can and will screw anything up. now, we do have our good sides sometimes:)

Yes, I do believe people can behave in a manner to benefit others and they do. This i do not dispute.

That's a though provoking question and let me first say im no Bible Scholar. just one who 14 years ago found the light in my life that has shown me what really matters in my life. This after 27 years of a happy go lucky life. God has truly blessed me and given me joy i could never imagine. not necessarily money, friends, or things. just overwhelming peace.

I don't even try to understand God's ways, i'd be a fool to think I could understand a God who created something so wonderous and powerful in this universe. We only use like 10-15% of our small brain, how can we even begin to try and anlyze everything, we can't.

But I will give you my position on your last question as best I can say (although as ive experience often with non-believers who like to debate i must say this is not a debate, only my thoughts).

God is our Father, just like you have a Father, every one on this earth is his children, and brothers and sisters. God wants to bring his children to a peaceful heaven with him. However, we must love him. If we ignore him and mock him I dare say we shouldnt expect him to roll out the red carpet for us. He only wants those who truly love him for who he is, the creator of the universe. If he gave a free pass to all those who did not love him in faith then it would not be heaven at all.

Again, most people lose sight, just as the Christian Crusaders did of the true love Jesus had for all of us and the true meaning of his teachings. I think alot of people get into analysis paralysis of the meaning of life, and end up believing a little of everything. You likely paint me as simple which is fine by me. But it takes alot more courage and strength to have faith in Christ, it hasnt been an easy road. but of course the easy road has nothing to offer.

[QRM]

I read a lot of people asking about which churches to attend in this forum.

Do church goers actually believe Jesus walked on water, and manged to make hundreds of tuna sandwiches from a small basket, or they accept its more of a story with urns full of artistic license designed to drive home a message to the uneducated populace of the time.

I assume they attend churches more as a social event, to make friends, without the need of paying the huge joining fees for the more obvious social clubs.

If they do believe it is possible to walk on water, wine from water etc. then theoretically all the local folklore, for example the dragon princess turning herself into Tioman island is not daft as it sound and should be entirely possible?