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ozchick
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Re: Faith

Postby ozchick » Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:08 pm

Turtle wrote:
Is it more courageous to just believe what you are told to (and therefore admit that others may know better than you, which is courageous), or to make a decision based on your own knowledge, knowing that it may have consequences if you are wrong (i.e. if you refuse to believe, knowing that you may go to hell


Que ?! Not too sure that NON-BELIEVERS would be concerned about 'hell'. I'd be fairly sure that the whole 'heaven/hell/God' thing would be- in their minds- a concept for the 'looney lot'. Their decision to 'not believe' gets them off the hook very nicely indeed. No pressure, no guilt.
And to say that one believes in something that no-one can see does take courage. The non-believers could give you a really hard time and think you were mad. A guy I read about was killed for such statements ...what was his name again? Oh yeah- that's right- some bloke called Jesus. :-|
'Are you trying to tempt me because I come from the land of plenty?'

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:55 pm

The main problem with discussions about God, I believe, is that we talk about 'him' as if he were external to us. If we understood 'God' in the same way we understand 'humanity', the view shifts immediately.

Humanity is much bigger than any individual human being, yet every single individual human being is an important component of humanity. Each of us carries within ourselves the essence of what humanity is, but no individual can claim to speak for humanity as a whole.

In the same way, there IS something bigger than each of us, which we tend to call 'God'. Yet there would be no God if individual beings did not exist to ponder what God is. Each of us carries the spark of divinity within, yet no individual can claim to speak for God or know his mind.

And if God were truly God, he would be vast enough to absorb the 'rightness' of each of our views. So SMS would indeed 'go to' or already be in heaven. Ozchick indeed has courage to believe, Turtle has equal courage to not believe, and Andy's (beautifully said) ten commandments would be wholeheartedly endorsed.

God does not need to be 'right' and does not need to judge anyone 'wrong'. It's we humans who have need of the concepts of right and wrong, good and bad, heaven and hell. We make sense of the world through the mental construct of dualities but this does not mean dualities really exist. Is there really such a thing as hot and cold, light and darkness? Not really, we just need one to understand the meaning of its opposite.

Humanity does not take sides, but embraces all who are human. There is no right and wrong about being male or female, young or old, black or white. Neither does God take sides and pronounce one religion (which includes the religion of unbelief or any other belief system) right and another wrong, but instead embraces all souls.

Still, just as human will fight human and thus humanity remains divided, so soul will fight soul and religion continues to divide us. This tension is necessary for evolution and growth, and part of the dynamic of life. It is not to be resented and questioned, but to be celebrated with awe and wonder.

Trust me on this. I must be right because I'm Catholic. :wink:

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Re: Faith

Postby Turtle » Tue, 29 Apr 2008 7:59 am

ozchick wrote: Que ?! Not too sure that NON-BELIEVERS would be concerned about 'hell'. I'd be fairly sure that the whole 'heaven/hell/God' thing would be- in their minds- a concept for the 'looney lot'.


Well maybe openly - but there is often a tiny little bit of doubt. Throughout history, religions have thrived (even survived) in some way because of this threat, by "encouraging" otherwise-would-be non-believers to believe by making the potential reward or punishment so high. Yes, some people are able to banish all thoughts of it from their head, but I imagine it takes a lot of self-confidence. What if you're wrong? Maybe you're 99% sure that there's no god, but I think it's hard to be 100% certain as to what happens after death (if anything), since nobody has any evidence of that either way.

And tons of people have been killed for their beliefs, sure, but tons of people have been killed for other, non-religious beliefs, simply because the ruling power was against them. Yes of course it's courageous to still hold and share those beliefs knowing the consequences, but I'd say that's more because they're beliefs that you know are unpopular, rather than specifically because they can't be proven one way or another. Jesus was killed because the Romans found his actions and words to be threatening to their power, not because they thought he was a bit of a loony.

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Re: Faith

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 29 Apr 2008 9:29 am

Turtle wrote:Yes, some people are able to banish all thoughts of it from their head, but I imagine it takes a lot of self-confidence. What if you're wrong? Maybe you're 99% sure that there's no god, but I think it's hard to be 100% certain as to what happens after death (if anything), since nobody has any evidence of that either way.


It doesn't take a lot of self-confidence. It only take self-confidence. Know thyself. Why would someone "naturally" doubt that which does not exist in the first place before believing in what "known" and is tangible. Why would someone believe in the unknown before believing in the known. Before you can do the 100% thing, you first have to accept that there is a soul (which is purely a fantasy construct of religion in the first place). Once one accepts that this is a fantasy of man's imagination, then the rest becomes easy. I know exactly what happens after death. In that aspect we are no different than any other species on the planet.

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Re: Faith

Postby road.not.taken » Tue, 29 Apr 2008 9:39 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Turtle wrote:Yes, some people are able to banish all thoughts of it from their head, but I imagine it takes a lot of self-confidence. What if you're wrong? Maybe you're 99% sure that there's no god, but I think it's hard to be 100% certain as to what happens after death (if anything), since nobody has any evidence of that either way.


It doesn't take a lot of self-confidence. It only take self-confidence. Know thyself. Why would someone "naturally" doubt that which does not exist in the first place before believing in what "known" and is tangible. Why would someone believe in the unknown before believing in the known. Before you can do the 100% thing, you first have to accept that there is a soul (which is purely a fantasy construct of religion in the first place). Once one accepts that this is a fantasy of man's imagination, then the rest becomes easy. I know exactly what happens after death. In that aspect we are no different than any other species on the planet.


So you believe there is no soul? If so, how can you be sure its 'purely' a fantasy construct? I think the best any of us can ever say is "I believe it is..." And not say it is purely one thing or another -- there is just no way of knowing, and to write in such definitive terms is surely offensive to those whose beliefs are different. How is it you know what happens after death? :o

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Re: Faith

Postby Turtle » Tue, 29 Apr 2008 9:54 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:It doesn't take a lot of self-confidence. It only take self-confidence. Know thyself. Why would someone "naturally" doubt that which does not exist in the first place before believing in what "known" and is tangible. Why would someone believe in the unknown before believing in the known. Before you can do the 100% thing, you first have to accept that there is a soul (which is purely a fantasy construct of religion in the first place). Once one accepts that this is a fantasy of man's imagination, then the rest becomes easy. I know exactly what happens after death. In that aspect we are no different than any other species on the planet.


It's all about confidence, really. I think many people (self included) are risk averse and like going a bit further just to cover their bases. Once you start talking about critical things like death and what may or may not happen after, which is a natural fear anyway, people tend to get worried to some degree. Not all people, but I would say most people are in some way uncertain or worried about what happens after death, for themselves or loved ones.

To get down to it, religion is basically a confidence trick. The fella with the robes is trying to convince you that he knows better than you about what happens after death, when in reality he has no more information than you do. Whether you believe in a supreme being or not, no human has real secret special insider info that comes direct from god and that no one else knows.

It's kind of like the thing with those magnetic wristbands, if you've seen them. Doctors have proven that the magnetism isn't strong enough to go through your skin or whatever else, and there is no scientific way that they could have a beneficial impact on a person's physical health. Doesn't stop lots of people swearing by them and saying they heal things that ordinary medicine never could. Is it all in the mind? Maybe. But at the end of the day, for those and many other people, it's $10 for a piece of metal you wear, no banks are being broken. If it actually has an effect then great, if not, $10 for a chance of better health is always worth the risk. Does the salesman have some inside info that scientists can't get their hands on? Clearly not, but for the would-be buyer, the risk/reward payoff is such that many people say "why not" and buy it.
Last edited by Turtle on Tue, 29 Apr 2008 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Faith

Postby QRM » Tue, 29 Apr 2008 9:56 am

road.not.taken wrote: How is it you know what happens after death? :o


See it everyday, for example, if you are a chicken or a cow, a bit of hot grilling and some BBQ chili sauce.

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Re: Faith

Postby ksl » Tue, 29 Apr 2008 4:18 pm

QRM wrote:
road.not.taken wrote: How is it you know what happens after death? :o


See it everyday, for example, if you are a chicken or a cow, a bit of hot grilling and some BBQ chili sauce.


Even though we see death every day, we do not see or know what happens to the spirit of the soul, if there is such a thing, maybe it dies with us, maybe not.

Although its first when we start to become old, that we wonder about death....when one is over 50, the odds of making it to 60, seem a great deal more reduced, as time goes by, this we see, when our friends suddenly pass on, some suddenly, some in pain, having faith is self comfort, more than anything.

Although WIMH appears to be on the right track for me, although i am a none practising catholic, humanity is much more balanced way of looking at life in this day and age. what is right and what is wrong is the fundimental basis of deciding ones path and destiny.

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Re: Faith

Postby QRM » Tue, 29 Apr 2008 6:03 pm

ksl wrote:
QRM wrote:
road.not.taken wrote: How is it you know what happens after death? :o


See it everyday, for example, if you are a chicken or a cow, a bit of hot grilling and some BBQ chili sauce.


Even though we see death every day, we do not see or know what happens to the spirit of the soul, if there is such a thing, maybe it dies with us, maybe not.

Although its first when we start to become old, that we wonder about death....when one is over 50, the odds of making it to 60, seem a great deal more reduced, as time goes by, this we see, when our friends suddenly pass on, some suddenly, some in pain, having faith is self comfort, more than anything.

Although WIMH appears to be on the right track for me, although i am a none practising catholic, humanity is much more balanced way of looking at life in this day and age. what is right and what is wrong is the fundimental basis of deciding ones path and destiny.


KSL

Why is it when ever people talk about religion they loose their humour ?

No point thinking too hard about life and its rich tapestry. The best brains over the millenniums have been trying to figure it out,

The best way to enlightenment, is when people figure out there is no answer. Zip, In fact there are plenty of more useful ways to use your mind and effort, go and buy a frog from the market and let it free.

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Re: Faith

Postby road.not.taken » Tue, 29 Apr 2008 7:30 pm

QRM wrote:Why is it when ever people talk about religion they loose their humour ?


Just be careful you don't lose your manners and graciousness. When anyone speaks in absolutes in the context of religion it smacks of condescension. As you said, it's a great big 'what if' so why not admit we don't have all the answers? I don't want anyone telling me the best way to enlightenment, that is a personal journey.

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Postby ksl » Wed, 30 Apr 2008 2:10 pm

The universe and the black hole exsist, the planets are within a well balanced axis, and any damage caused to the mixture of gases or planets earths ionosphere will have corrective answers, were there is a cause, there will be an effect...

There is no doubt something called god in my mind, although I don't see any connection to religion. We have been bestowed with brains, that think, although some better than others, so evolution is more about standing on your own two feet, rather than following some idealistic theory of a religous god.

We know humanity is better than war and killing, although the creators of war, are still genetically evolving and adapting to calls of humanity.

The power of religion is to empower the mind, body and soul, for a purpose, of political idealogies, no less, that is why confrontation exsists in my opinion, if all, embraced humanity and one religion, life would be more bareable, however, the world would explode with over population and cause and effects would be implemented, to eradicate life.

Life must be balanced I guess, so there will always be work to do, to improve humanity and love.

The problem i see, with many Countries, like the US, UK, is without doubt unequal, the power is held, and not shared with its people, they call it democracy, religions help, to keep it all in place especially the power over the people. This in my opinion is why so much confrontation exsists between Countries, the less wealthy ones, have always been exploited in one way or another, and even the locals of super powers, are kept in place, by the powers of the leaders.

Politics are shared, between one party or a few, and if they don't play the game, they will be squashed. Having faith is a natural thought process, for a better life, although we are conned into that belief.

In reality on must just have faith in oneself, to live the life, in a good way, otherwise, the cause and effect, will eventually punish you. Even innocent people have condemed to a life of misery, or framed for something they have never done, having faith in oneself, is the most important of all, I seldom have faith in religion, but i have faith in god, becuase god is myself, I am apart of the universe, no matter how small.

The billions of humans have an effect on the planet through industry, and the planet, well repay, the humans back with a reminder, that you must look after the planet,or the god will be very angry! We live in perfect harmony within the solar system, which god created, maybe with a big bang, however, things evolved into life.

There is a great deal more to life, than just working 12 hours a day, for money, although we all need, money, for some its never enough.

So humans get locked into their own little cycles, not noticing what else is happening in the world, they discover nothing about living, about the birds and the bees, nature, the beauty of animals, birds, and everything else, that surrounds us.

I notice it more in Asia, because people are focussed on work, and exploitation of others, to get power, wealth, without giving back to the people. Its kind of like governments holding a carrot, infront of your face, but you will never be equal to those in control.

One reason why I have faith in myself to survive, but not in my Country, to provide for me. Just my opinion, although my mind is kept open!

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Postby ringo100 » Thu, 01 May 2008 4:38 pm

I find it fascinating that in the 21st century there is still a large number of educated people who hold on to myth and folk law with such passion.

Thankfully, there is a clear correlation between educating the masses and the abandonment of religion.

Fortunately it is possible to appreciate the cultural value in reading stories about Zeus, Mohammed and the Trinity, without having to believe them.

Does anyone out there still believe in the Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas, or is that just too silly?

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Re: Faith

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 01 May 2008 6:15 pm

road.not.taken wrote:
QRM wrote:Why is it when ever people talk about religion they loose their humour ?


Just be careful you don't lose your manners and graciousness. When anyone speaks in absolutes in the context of religion it smacks of condescension. As you said, it's a great big 'what if' so why not admit we don't have all the answers? I don't want anyone telling me the best way to enlightenment, that is a personal journey.


Know thyself. I know myself, I know what I think. If I speak in absolutes it's because I believe it absolutely. If I am wrong then "I" suffer the consequences - it's no skin off your nose. If you don't like it. Tough. I didn't write it to please or get your highness' approval. If you think it or this is condescending, too bad.

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Re: Faith

Postby road.not.taken » Thu, 01 May 2008 10:27 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
road.not.taken wrote:
QRM wrote:Why is it when ever people talk about religion they loose their humour ?


Just be careful you don't lose your manners and graciousness. When anyone speaks in absolutes in the context of religion it smacks of condescension. As you said, it's a great big 'what if' so why not admit we don't have all the answers? I don't want anyone telling me the best way to enlightenment, that is a personal journey.


Know thyself. I know myself, I know what I think. If I speak in absolutes it's because I believe it absolutely. If I am wrong then "I" suffer the consequences - it's no skin off your nose. If you don't like it. Tough. I didn't write it to please or get your highness' approval. If you think it or this is condescending, too bad.


Blah, blah, blah.

blah, blah.

Here's a thought! Use your words to say: this is what I think, not this is how it is. Honestly SMS, use your damn head!

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Re: Faith

Postby QRM » Thu, 01 May 2008 10:35 pm

road.not.taken wrote:
Honestly SMS, use your damn head!


Anger management courses anyone? RNT you seem particularly irritable lately anything bothering you?


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