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Hows this for a solution to NS dodging.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 26 Feb 2008 6:08 pm

:lol: :cool:

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Postby durain » Tue, 26 Feb 2008 6:18 pm

learn something new everyday. :P :)

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Postby Forks » Tue, 26 Feb 2008 9:35 pm

The three thing every country needs to be a "country"

A beer

An airline

and a military

But that still doesn't explain what NS is for. I come from another country of 4 million and we have way less military and no military service, granted we are somewhat removed from potential threats (excluding the ever present and very real threat of Penguins) but the point still stands the Malayan emergency is long over and so is the Confrontasi neither of which required a navy or million dollar aircraft zooming around.

Yes Singapore is small but its power stems far more from its economic performance and its ability to pull itself up by the (non military) bootstraps.

As for my son well I hope it will be his choice when the time comes, I'm ex military myself but its not for everybody.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:44 pm

Forks wrote:The three thing every country needs to be a "country"

A beer

An airline

and a military



Let's see now......

Bintang

Garuda

manpower available for military service 60,543,000 @ 2005
manpower fit for military service 48,687,000 @ 2005
manpower reaching cumppulsory military service age (2 years) annually 2,200,000 @ 2002

Based on those stats that means a standing army of a minimum of 4.5 million men at any given time.

I am curious though, why is Confrontasi over? (like it could not happen again?). Tell Timor that, I'm sure that they will be glad to hear it.
Yes Singapore is small but its power stems far more from its economic performance and its ability to pull itself up by the (non military) bootstraps.


Yeah, that and the 5 power defense pack that helps keep it that way. Singapore needs only to provide a 72 hour standoff capability in order to give it's allies times to fly/sail in from Guam or Darwin.

:wink:

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Postby ksl » Wed, 27 Feb 2008 1:58 am

Forks:Yes Singapore is small but its power stems far more from its economic performance and its ability to pull itself up by the (non military) bootstraps


Forks; I don't expect you to have any insight into warfare, or the NS, although what you said above, tells me you are better at monopoly, than you are at Chess. It's a sad state of affairs if you don't have loyalty to anyone, but money.

You can take your pick for why Singapore has NS, but if they didn't other armies, would be more than likelyhave to be here, to protect, the strategic red dot.

I suggest you do some research, it may enlighten you, to why there is NS in Singapore, besides, the fact of educating people in emergency procedures, and protecting the assets, that puts food in you and your families mouth. the military employs, and trains everyone for a reason, to defend its Country.

But most of all, makes you into a mature adult, with responsibilities, with a lot of pride for your fellow comrades, community, and Country, or it either breaks you and makes you a resentful, untrustworthy, weak, and basically a selfish person to have around, certainly not a team player....in fact maybe even a potential risk, to have around.

The stigma is always around for the choosing, I personally feel quite shocked, at your naïvety, although if you are under 20, it's got to be expected.... :roll:

I also believe that Singapore government is well aware of the problems, with Singapore citizens, and that's why they come down harshly on them, it is a personal weakness one must deal with, sadly the children suffer, the embarrassment of their parents mistakes.

The first to arrive here, would probably be the Gurkhas' from Brunei, under British Command

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Postby Forks » Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:16 pm

Dude you gotta be joking. So you wanna guess what I am and what i know, wrongo!

just coz you've dodged some bullets dont make you a military expert either, it means you've been in combat, there is a diff. Btw I have been in the miltary, maybe not in combat but 4 years as well as growing up in a military family.

You also assume I dont know anyting about Singapore and NS, I in fact do, I just dont buy into it.

Perhapses you should check your history of the region and what really happened in Malaysia and how long its been over, there aint no more commies up in the hills anymore and Indonesia aint trying to sneak its bumbling agents in Singapore or Malaysia either.

And in both cases it was other powers who did the defending, the brits, Malays and locals tribes in both cases, with some Ozzie and kiwis helping out, and yes some Ghurkas too, not the Singapore military and the big scale sweeps, tanks, planes or conscripts of early phases of both conflicts failed and it was better organized policing, intel and PR which won Malaysia and small unit patrols, and Indonesians own bumbling, confusion and over-extension which did it in the confrontasi, not NS, why dont you get your facts straight

There are other ways to become a mature adult than military service and doing military service does not guarantee any of the qualities you listed but it can also instill narrow mindedness, unoriginality, jingoism. Military service can make you physicaly tough and good at your job but it can also dehumanize you to the pain of others and promote in-group out-group attitudes.

I will try to give my son the choice to join the military because it can be a good experience but then so can the boy scouts, a community group, sports team, Garage band, dance troop, political party etc, that whole "make a man outta them" idea shows your age more than anything I said, you should listen to thr younger locals more, I dont hear a lot of positive comments about it, oh they do it but if they didnt have to they wouldnt and most of them just plan to do their time and get on with 'life' whatever that is for them, if you want to hold onto cold war attitudes all power to ya but dont expect others to swallow it without comment.

Singapore is not Israel where even women can end up in military service and they are really surrounded by hostiles on three sides and no bodies of water to protect them and look what their NS is doing to that country, would you like Singapore to go down that road.

All countries need defence but its not one size, idea, concept, doctine or force fits all, Singapore strenghts have been its flexibility and adaptability in the face of problems, and its gotten where it is today not on defence but on its can do attitude, hard work and willingness to face facts.

And for the record never in human history, ever, has a military force been a genuine financial contributor to society, the costs of such forces always, always outweigh their meager financial input back to the community that supports them (the costs of weapons etc is always high), have you never noticed that countries often go into the red after wars, or run out of $$$ or suffer great suffering after wars due to the high costs of maintaining an army, most of human history has not seen many standing armies they are a recent invention from around the time of Napoleon excluding the Romans.

and besides your simple definition of military service as make = good and break = bad shows that you passed and view anyone who didn't cut it as inferior or somehow lesser, WTF, just coz someone didnt do a BFT or pass their range test doesnt make them any lesser.

And a potential risk, like no ex military types become bad guys, you been watching John Wayne in the Green Berets again havent you? Check Timothy Mcveigh, Osama Bin Laden, Hitler etc etc, just what did you mean by that comment?

and if you shocked at my "naivety" then I am shocked at you "arrogance" you make a lot of assumptions and really cant just expect others to swallow or even back them up, dont rely of your age or 'combat experience' to make others take you at face value.

and what exactly is the personal weakness you were talking about? Not wanting to do NS? not all countries have a draft, is that a personal weakness?

Singapore had a lot more reasons back in the 60s and 70s to have NS and a military focus, today it aint so, who exactly is planning to invade here, Indonesia? Malaysia?

And conscripts do not make good soldiers, and an untested military is not a good bet either, Singapore would have done better in alliances and what it has done with trade.

and FYI I dont have loyalty to the $$$ any more than you.

So if you wanna make comments fine but just because you have been in combat doenst make you sepcial or an expert, if you are a high ranking military officer or defence specialist then I will take on what you say but I have spoken to a lot of veterans, high ranking military officers and defense specialists and not all hold the views or attitudes you do so please dont assume they do.

I grew up among people like you and you get outta bed like the rest of us and put your pants on like the rest of us, just coz you been in a war is not a badge of honor or something special so stop dropping the hints, My dad and granddad dodged bullets also and did not need to justify it like they "knew" and others didnt, nor imply that they had done something special. Fighting in defense or your country is special and a worthwhile choice if your are truly faced with invasion but when others are fighting for you, its not a real threat to your survival (just your empire) or you have been drafted its not, realpolitik is not the truth, just a view.

And in the information age, tanks, subs and million dollar fighters have become somewhat redundant or havnt you noticed? The Iraq war went down quickly and mission accomplished but Whoops, the big ticket items didnt cut it did they? small groups of well organized men, kicked their arse and still are, Vietnam rem that war, who won that, wasnt the big technical force, no it was the other side wasnt it, so Singapore having a big kick ass military which is well out of par with the other remaining militaries around here is not going to cut it, a short war? any war here will be very long if someone tries to take and hold territory.

And that doesnt even take into account the way both Indonesia and Malaysia have configured their militaries almost entirely for internal security not external aggression, to protect the powers that be from those within than those without, Singapore is the anomaly here, which also entails that they maintain a doctrine that ignores the realities of their 'opponents'

911 and the bali bombing have been far more effective weapons and will continue to be so than a standing force of untested conscripts.

What Singapore needs more is forces configured to anti-terror, security and protection of trade routes (anti piracy) as well as to continue its diplomacy as it has always done which is to make the threat more real than the actual forces behind it. Singapore has had good successes dealing with its local terror incidents, as well as Piracy in the straights and its been often a case of Co-operation not going it alone, few if any states these days can hold their ground in the face of an opponent that can easily transcend borders.

The military is a community as much as any other but its differences are often mistaken by its members as strengths, and we all know what happens when militaries start assuming they know better than everyone else.

I hope these comments dont upset you, just expressing my opinion like yourself but if your irked by my comments then you know how I felt by reading yours about me, dont go insulting people if you dont want some in return.

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Postby ksl » Thu, 28 Feb 2008 3:46 am

What Singapore needs more is forces configured to anti-terror, security and protection of trade routes (anti piracy) as well as to continue its diplomacy as it has always done which is to make the threat more real than the actual forces behind it. Singapore has had good successes dealing with its local terror incidents, as well as Piracy in the straights and its been often a case of Co-operation not going it alone, few if any states these days can hold their ground in the face of an opponent that can easily transcend borders.

The military is a community as much as any other but its differences are often mistaken by its members as strengths, and we all know what happens when militaries start assuming they know better than everyone else.

I hope these comments dont upset you, just expressing my opinion like yourself but if your irked by my comments then you know how I felt by reading yours about me, dont go insulting people if you dont want some in return.


Why should I be irked? This is the reply one expects, when dealing with attitude, and if everyone had your attitude, who would be left, to deal, with the problems you have just been writing about, it really does appear, that you have tied yourself in knots, you have mentioned, what you think Singapore, should be doing, although you are still adamant about NS...

The military is a community as much as any other but its differences are often mistaken by its members as strengths, and we all know what happens when militaries start assuming they know better than everyone else
:? :???:

I guess you are relieved to get all that off your chest, unfortunately, I have lived with terrorism since my 18th birthday, and yes i do consider myself, rather advanced in the knowledge of terrorism, having closely been working with many refugees from around the world.

But i can tell you one, thing it's not about bravado, no one likes war, at all, or even the thought of war. and you are quite right that military life can have a bad psychological effect on people.

Many have and do suffer the traumas, for the rest of their lives, especially if you have been in a combat zone, and also if one is bullied, while in the service.

But I can guarantee one thing in my life, no matter which Country i lived in, I would be willing to serve in NS, if that was the requirement and I wouldn't dream of avoiding it.

My post wasn't intentionally insulting, it was based on my own sons, background, when all he wanted to do, was join the Army, at the age of 16, I tried my best, to discourage him, because his service would not start until the age of 18.

But I also knew, he wouldn't last, self discipline, was lacking!

Now what i do know, having been employed on both sides of the fence, is that leadership skills, discipline, initiative, man management, organisation, is quite a commodity that is encouraged, and hopefully they all learn from the experience, many of the skills taught, in the military, would not be taught in civillian life, and are therefor skills of relevance.

I knew, that my own son couldn't stick it out, especially in the uniit, he was being sent to, so by the time he was 19, he had already decided he wanted out...although his contract didn't start until 18 until he was 21.

So you see, I can see both sides of the coin, although our British Army is voluntary and not NS, although I would say my son wasn't even mature enough, to know what he wanted, at the age of 16 or 18....he just wanted to be like his father....which to me, was an identity crisis, he was going through, having never been raised, by me.

Although he gave it a go, and I supported him, all the way, even when he disliked it, and he did a runner, I explained the consequence, would be prison.

What else can you do, he has to face the music, and your son would too, my point is, that for all you do for your son, doesn't make it right. far from it...it is up to your son to decide. There is a duty to do, and that's that.

Otherwise stay well away from Singapore. It appears that your rant may have even helped you let off steam by the looks of the post, maybe you were also bullied in those 4 years too...

I have seen my fair share of bullying in my Army life, and I have never ever tolerated it, even from a Sgt Major, in my younger day, when he started prodding his finger into my shoulder, I was busted down in rank a few times, life is like that, up and down, although i am never down for long.

It's called survival, i personally couldn't care of any military rank, I show respect, i expect respect in return, it's that simple, but i would never bang my head against the wall, because you can never beat the system, you have to play the game, that's what they like, the game is important, to the structure of society. So it's yes sir yes sir 3 bags full sir!

I do believe you made several point's that i firmly disagree with, although it's really not a discussion, one can have..so what's the point!

Defence
The Psychological Defence of Total Defence rests upon the people's pride, patriotism and loyalty to the country, and their commitment to it and its defence in time of crisis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Defence

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Postby Forks » Thu, 28 Feb 2008 9:35 am

Well Im glad your not irked but my attitude came from you trying to make it sound like I had no idea of what I was saying. Its gone now but you cant make comments like you did and expect people to just smile and take it, cummon, cause and effect here, yeah, read your post and tell me you were not trying to knock me a bit, I understand that and I just gave it back, Im not ticked now but i was upset when I read it, I had a coffee and chilled.

Im not in any knots about NS, I understand and agree with the fact that if Singapore makes a big point about NS, makes it well known what is expected of them, then if you do live in Singapore and enjoy its benifits you cant claim ignorance about it when the time comes or say you dont want to do it. If I am here when my son is 18 then he will have to do it, so it will be a choice i will have to make about staying in Singapore that long, but if I do then he will have to go.

My point about NS is not that I approve of dodging it, I dont, I know that I have to abide by the laws of whatever country I have resided in, regardless of weather I like them but That doesnt mean that i have to agree with them or like them, most people have some area of law in which they dont always like, be it speeding limits, punishment for criminals etc. I just dont agree with the idea that NS is needed to protect Singapore, NS could be reconfigured more towards the Civil Defence aspects, community task forces etc etc.

And I could be wrong but I get the feeling that you think Im some sort of tree-hugging liberal or something, let me assure you I am not, but neither am I a rightwing reactionary. I do not hate the military or want to outlaw the army but having a military ill configured to fight the kind of conflicts its going to face in the future is not sound defense.

I also agree with you about your son, he does have to do it, and its good that you stood up to bullying in the military, but then you know as well as I that it can also be a very insular and unhealthy culture at times, bastardization is not as rampant as it used to be but it still exists.

As for you disagreeing with me about things I have said feel free to say, ok maybe not on this thread but My opinions are not cast in stone and i dont know everything so im willing to listen if you wanna talk, but remember as with your comment about respect, you gotta give it to get it yeah.

I suspect that given our backgrounds we might actually agree on more than we disagree about, but its true that we disagree on some issues, its not the idea of total defense that I agree with its the idea that comes with it that there is a threat which requires an approach of that nature. Im sure you can see that despite the odd squabble Singapore and Malaysia do get on, trade flows, people cross the casueway back and forth and in many ways, they come here we go there, Ozzies and Kiwis are far more acrimonious than I have ever seen the average SGPer and Malay get over things.

As I write this at work, my school, (im a teacher/administrator by day, student by night) is surround by armed troops and cops looking for

a. a taxi robber with a gun
b. the head of JI who has escaped
c. a plain ol escaped terrorist

Now if there is a guy with a gun roaming around why am I allowed into my school, I dont think it is a guy with a gun, but if the threat is so great why is there a Battalions worth of troops roaming around the neighborhood, many armed?

Im afraid Im going to have to go with a little bit of paranoia/overkill because if there is a gunman then they are being very negligent in allowing any school to be open, and if its an escaped terrorist hes not likely to be armed and most likely heading for anywhere but here, so what is all this for? probably because of an attitude that is a bit out of sync with reality, a few dog teams and a police presence is needed not what is wandering around my school or sitting having tea in the cafeteria.

anyway that has nothing to do with you but it does show that total defense can also lead to total paranoia and total overkill, I have spent the last two years studying Singapore and its military (along with terrorism) and talking to many of them, most seem to understand that change is needed in how Singapore looks at its defense so as to reflect the growing changes in the world, but you and I both know that militaries are often very resistant to change and when it does come its often in the face of a defeat because they were looking one way and got hit from another.

If there any point between us that i would say we really dont see eye to eye is about the "game", ie following the rules, yes you do have to follow the rules but societies change and that change does not always come from the top, it can come from without or from below, any regime that tries to hold on for too long be it Socialist or capitalist suffers the same fate as history has always given to those who try to ignore reality, defeat.

The mode of war and conflict has changed a lot and the only way to survive (something which I do agree with you about) is not about refusing to budge but often bending with the wind, rolling with the punches and accepting change when change needs to be made. And I think a Battalions worth of troops roaming the neighborhood for one man indicates that there needs to be a change.

anyway enough ranting from me, I have to go explain to my students why there are armed men roaming around. But my original reason for this post was more justa poke at those who seem to want to get out of NS not to slander NS or the people who do it by proposing what was obviously a unworkable solution for a laugh, who would have guessed Id have ended here.

:D

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 28 Feb 2008 4:17 pm

That's what's great about forums sometimes. It allows us to say things that sometimes are deep inside and for lack of a better reason, never have a chance to get it out.

Oh, regarding the soldiers, I have to wonder how it is that the police let the bugger escape in the first place. All the harping the Ministry of Home Affairs does on it's advanced state of readiness, et al. They are always putting down Indonesia & Malaysia when something happens in their police forces. Now Singapore can't manage to keep one unarmed terrorist locked up securely. And to think, Indonesia caught the bugger and handed him over to Singapore so all they had to do was lock his up.


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