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looking for eye clinic / doctor

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NYY1
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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by NYY1 » Thu, 26 Jan 2023 4:39 pm

malcontent wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:49 pm
I agree with your sentiments with regard to insurance. It should be a safety net in situations where “self-insure” option is not possible or practical for most people. The biggest problem with this in the Singapore context is that insurance companies are more concerned with protecting themselves than protecting the insured. In the US the insurance companies typically have a MOOP = maximum out of pocket, where anything above that is paid for by insurance, so you can be sure you’ll never pay more than the MOOP. Here it seems to be just the opposite, the insurance companies have their MOOP where they won’t pay anything over a certain dollar limit. For my employer’s medical cover, it is quite pathetic at just $40k, so if anything crazy happens and we get a six figure medical bill… we are on our own.

My contingency plan is to move back to the US and get on Obamacare (if there is enough time) should something happen that requires too many dollars. The problem is, sometimes there isn’t time… and I guess bankruptcy is the only option?
I guess there are two competing interests here. The MOOP helps to protect the individual from some catastrophic event (financially speaking), kind of the purpose of insurance as you note. The downside seems to be a system that is full of inefficiencies, and likely everyone paying more than necessary (insuring stuff that doesn't need to be insured).

In contrast, the other system with a coverage limit appears to avoid some of these problems (although not entirely and maybe the difference is also the scope of coverage not including everything under the sun), and shift responsibility to the individual (or bear the consequences). Aren't there additional coverages one can buy to get more protection against the rare but extreme outcomes? Lower costs but perhaps some people get put in a really unfortunate spot.

So I guess maybe the MOOP concept itself is fine. The issue appears to be that the consumer is detached from the payment (or pricing), and people negotiating premiums are less sensitive than millions of different consumers actually reaching into their pocket (so to speak).

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by Lisafuller » Fri, 27 Jan 2023 1:38 am

malcontent wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:28 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 3:27 am
malcontent wrote:
Wed, 25 Jan 2023 3:29 pm
One important thing to note for expats coming from North America - - you do not need a prescription to get corrective lenses here. You can just rock up and tell them what your degree is, and they will hand it over!

Also, practically every shop selling glasses here will check your eyes for free. This is night & day different (in a positive way) compared to how it works in the good ‘ole USA.
Yes! And prices are so much more affordable here. In the US, I go to for eyes. Most of their frames are designer and very expensive, but I don't believe they're worth the price.
Agree, it’s been a very long time since I bought any corrective lenses in the US. You have to look out for promotions where they include a free eye exam if you purchase lenses from them. Once I started working in the US my employer provided eye care benefits — that is the only silver lining, if you have a good employer.

In Singapore most employers do not cover eye care or dental. When this came up at our employee benefits review, I remarked to our HR team: blind and toothless also can!
Honestly, it's pretty crazy, considering that most of the optometrists sit around in the empty shops all day. They'd probably appreciate some thing to do with their time.

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by Lisafuller » Fri, 27 Jan 2023 1:40 am

NYY1 wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:22 pm
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:28 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 3:27 am


Yes! And prices are so much more affordable here. In the US, I go to for eyes. Most of their frames are designer and very expensive, but I don't believe they're worth the price.
Agree, it’s been a very long time since I bought any corrective lenses in the US. You have to look out for promotions where they include a free eye exam if you purchase lenses from them. Once I started working in the US my employer provided eye care benefits — that is the only silver lining, if you have a good employer.

In Singapore most employers do not cover eye care or dental. When this came up at our employee benefits review, I remarked to our HR team: blind and toothless also can!
The positive of group benefits/insurance is that they can negotiate a better rate than the out of network/walk in price. Looked at one time, in isolation, this seems great.

The negative is that group insurance does little to control long-run costs. Insurance providers simply charge expected cost to the pool (plus some admin/processing fee); they don't care whether costs go up or down. Further, when everyone is "insured," there tends to be an overuse of the good/service. Since no one is paying out of pocket, everyone thinks it is free (or discounted, i.e. I got a $1,000 treatment for $100 copay). But when everyone behaves that way, it just drives up costs or industry lobbies for rules like you must get a new prescription every year. In the end, insurance costs to employers are compensation to employees. If collectively healthcare costs were cut and employees got more cash, would that be bad?

At its core, insurance is meant to protect against losses from which one would find it hard to recover. I.e. if your house burns down that will be a major financial loss for most. But no need to insure the door knob on your wardrobe.

Looked at that way, there's little reason to insure (or have company cover/provide benefits or insurance) relatively small expenses like routine dental/vision. Major dental/vision issues and procedures/surgeries would be a different issue. Kind of like whether you insure an oil change for your car vs. theft/collision total loss (and one may not insure this if the car isn't worth much).

Alternatively, I think a lot of companies here have flex dollars that can be used for whatever service one needs most. No preferential rate or benefit, just reimbursement for out of pocket expenses that fit the guidelines.
Agree, my SIL is a known cheapskate. She checks into the hospital a couple times a year for bogus reasons, just to stock up on good quality Crabtree and Evelyn toiletries, and to have a couple days paid vacation. People like her spoil the market for everyone else.

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by Lisafuller » Fri, 27 Jan 2023 1:41 am

malcontent wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:49 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:22 pm
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:28 am


Agree, it’s been a very long time since I bought any corrective lenses in the US. You have to look out for promotions where they include a free eye exam if you purchase lenses from them. Once I started working in the US my employer provided eye care benefits — that is the only silver lining, if you have a good employer.

In Singapore most employers do not cover eye care or dental. When this came up at our employee benefits review, I remarked to our HR team: blind and toothless also can!
The positive of group benefits/insurance is that they can negotiate a better rate than the out of network/walk in price. Looked at one time, in isolation, this seems great.

The negative is that group insurance does little to control long-run costs. Insurance providers simply charge expected cost to the pool (plus some admin/processing fee); they don't care whether costs go up or down. Further, when everyone is "insured," there tends to be an overuse of the good/service. Since no one is paying out of pocket, everyone thinks it is free (or discounted, i.e. I got a $1,000 treatment for $100 copay). But when everyone behaves that way, it just drives up costs or industry lobbies for rules like you must get a new prescription every year. In the end, insurance costs to employers are compensation to employees. If collectively healthcare costs were cut and employees got more cash, would that be bad?

At its core, insurance is meant to protect against losses from which one would find it hard to recover. I.e. if your house burns down that will be a major financial loss for most. But no need to insure the door knob on your wardrobe.

Looked at that way, there's little reason to insure (or have company cover/provide benefits or insurance) relatively small expenses like routine dental/vision. Major dental/vision issues and procedures/surgeries would be a different issue. Kind of like whether you insure an oil change for your car vs. theft/collision total loss (and one may not insure this if the car isn't worth much).

Alternatively, I think a lot of companies here have flex dollars that can be used for whatever service one needs most. No preferential rate or benefit, just reimbursement for out of pocket expenses that fit the guidelines.
I agree with your sentiments with regard to insurance. It should be a safety net in situations where “self-insure” option is not possible or practical for most people. The biggest problem with this in the Singapore context is that insurance companies are more concerned with protecting themselves than protecting the insured. In the US the insurance companies typically have a MOOP = maximum out of pocket, where anything above that is paid for by insurance, so you can be sure you’ll never pay more than the MOOP. Here it seems to be just the opposite, the insurance companies have their MOOP where they won’t pay anything over a certain dollar limit. For my employer’s medical cover, it is quite pathetic at just $40k, so if anything crazy happens and we get a six figure medical bill… we are on our own.

My contingency plan is to move back to the US and get on Obamacare (if there is enough time) should something happen that requires too many dollars. The problem is, sometimes there isn’t time… and I guess bankruptcy is the only option?
Isn't the MOOP the same as a deductible then?

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by Lisafuller » Fri, 27 Jan 2023 1:43 am

NYY1 wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 4:39 pm
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:49 pm
I agree with your sentiments with regard to insurance. It should be a safety net in situations where “self-insure” option is not possible or practical for most people. The biggest problem with this in the Singapore context is that insurance companies are more concerned with protecting themselves than protecting the insured. In the US the insurance companies typically have a MOOP = maximum out of pocket, where anything above that is paid for by insurance, so you can be sure you’ll never pay more than the MOOP. Here it seems to be just the opposite, the insurance companies have their MOOP where they won’t pay anything over a certain dollar limit. For my employer’s medical cover, it is quite pathetic at just $40k, so if anything crazy happens and we get a six figure medical bill… we are on our own.

My contingency plan is to move back to the US and get on Obamacare (if there is enough time) should something happen that requires too many dollars. The problem is, sometimes there isn’t time… and I guess bankruptcy is the only option?
I guess there are two competing interests here. The MOOP helps to protect the individual from some catastrophic event (financially speaking), kind of the purpose of insurance as you note. The downside seems to be a system that is full of inefficiencies, and likely everyone paying more than necessary (insuring stuff that doesn't need to be insured).

In contrast, the other system with a coverage limit appears to avoid some of these problems (although not entirely and maybe the difference is also the scope of coverage not including everything under the sun), and shift responsibility to the individual (or bear the consequences). Aren't there additional coverages one can buy to get more protection against the rare but extreme outcomes? Lower costs but perhaps some people get put in a really unfortunate spot.

So I guess maybe the MOOP concept itself is fine. The issue appears to be that the consumer is detached from the payment (or pricing), and people negotiating premiums are less sensitive than millions of different consumers actually reaching into their pocket (so to speak).
Honestly, I believe that company provided insurance is no longer about actually protecting employees, but rather a way to incentivize potential employees to join the company as it's viewed as a form of welfare. Comparing two companies, one with insurance and the other without, any job seeker would prefer the former.

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by malcontent » Fri, 27 Jan 2023 2:04 am

Lisafuller wrote:
Fri, 27 Jan 2023 1:41 am
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:49 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:22 pm

The positive of group benefits/insurance is that they can negotiate a better rate than the out of network/walk in price. Looked at one time, in isolation, this seems great.

The negative is that group insurance does little to control long-run costs. Insurance providers simply charge expected cost to the pool (plus some admin/processing fee); they don't care whether costs go up or down. Further, when everyone is "insured," there tends to be an overuse of the good/service. Since no one is paying out of pocket, everyone thinks it is free (or discounted, i.e. I got a $1,000 treatment for $100 copay). But when everyone behaves that way, it just drives up costs or industry lobbies for rules like you must get a new prescription every year. In the end, insurance costs to employers are compensation to employees. If collectively healthcare costs were cut and employees got more cash, would that be bad?

At its core, insurance is meant to protect against losses from which one would find it hard to recover. I.e. if your house burns down that will be a major financial loss for most. But no need to insure the door knob on your wardrobe.

Looked at that way, there's little reason to insure (or have company cover/provide benefits or insurance) relatively small expenses like routine dental/vision. Major dental/vision issues and procedures/surgeries would be a different issue. Kind of like whether you insure an oil change for your car vs. theft/collision total loss (and one may not insure this if the car isn't worth much).

Alternatively, I think a lot of companies here have flex dollars that can be used for whatever service one needs most. No preferential rate or benefit, just reimbursement for out of pocket expenses that fit the guidelines.
I agree with your sentiments with regard to insurance. It should be a safety net in situations where “self-insure” option is not possible or practical for most people. The biggest problem with this in the Singapore context is that insurance companies are more concerned with protecting themselves than protecting the insured. In the US the insurance companies typically have a MOOP = maximum out of pocket, where anything above that is paid for by insurance, so you can be sure you’ll never pay more than the MOOP. Here it seems to be just the opposite, the insurance companies have their MOOP where they won’t pay anything over a certain dollar limit. For my employer’s medical cover, it is quite pathetic at just $40k, so if anything crazy happens and we get a six figure medical bill… we are on our own.

My contingency plan is to move back to the US and get on Obamacare (if there is enough time) should something happen that requires too many dollars. The problem is, sometimes there isn’t time… and I guess bankruptcy is the only option?
Isn't the MOOP the same as a deductible then?
Not exactly. Anything below MOOP can be complicated. You typically won’t pay full, and it very much depends on what it is exactly. My brother had Obamacare for several years and we couldn’t make heads or tails of it - the bill would have a discount here, a subsidy there… who knows whether it’s even correct? But he never hit the MOOP.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 28 Jan 2023 1:18 am

malcontent wrote:
Fri, 27 Jan 2023 2:04 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Fri, 27 Jan 2023 1:41 am
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:49 pm


I agree with your sentiments with regard to insurance. It should be a safety net in situations where “self-insure” option is not possible or practical for most people. The biggest problem with this in the Singapore context is that insurance companies are more concerned with protecting themselves than protecting the insured. In the US the insurance companies typically have a MOOP = maximum out of pocket, where anything above that is paid for by insurance, so you can be sure you’ll never pay more than the MOOP. Here it seems to be just the opposite, the insurance companies have their MOOP where they won’t pay anything over a certain dollar limit. For my employer’s medical cover, it is quite pathetic at just $40k, so if anything crazy happens and we get a six figure medical bill… we are on our own.

My contingency plan is to move back to the US and get on Obamacare (if there is enough time) should something happen that requires too many dollars. The problem is, sometimes there isn’t time… and I guess bankruptcy is the only option?
Isn't the MOOP the same as a deductible then?
Not exactly. Anything below MOOP can be complicated. You typically won’t pay full, and it very much depends on what it is exactly. My brother had Obamacare for several years and we couldn’t make heads or tails of it - the bill would have a discount here, a subsidy there… who knows whether it’s even correct? But he never hit the MOOP.
So he had to pay 100% out of pocket? That would make having Obamacare as good as not having it.

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by malcontent » Sat, 28 Jan 2023 1:53 am

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 1:18 am
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 27 Jan 2023 2:04 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Fri, 27 Jan 2023 1:41 am


Isn't the MOOP the same as a deductible then?
Not exactly. Anything below MOOP can be complicated. You typically won’t pay full, and it very much depends on what it is exactly. My brother had Obamacare for several years and we couldn’t make heads or tails of it - the bill would have a discount here, a subsidy there… who knows whether it’s even correct? But he never hit the MOOP.
So he had to pay 100% out of pocket? That would make having Obamacare as good as not having it.
He never had enough medical bills to reach MOOP, so he had to pay “something” - but that something was never known upfront, it could be anything from him having to pay 100% of the bill, 80% of the bill, 60% or even as little as 40% of the bill. And even on one bill you could have different % to pay by line item. It was just a crazy, haywire system.

I think Nancy Pelosi said it best, of the Affordable Care Act, in 2010 "We [need] to pass the bill in order to find out what [is] in it." - it has to be the most complicated piece of legislation ever concocted.

I tried to help my brother navigate it, but he had some really bad experiences with it. Twice they kicked him off of Obamacare because he had former military service, despite sending them proof that he didn’t qualify for military healthcare. Each time he was made to pay stiff penalties. Then when he brought his wife from the Philippines over on a K1 visa, another nightmare - his filing status changed to married and they kicked him out again because they thought he would drop below the poverty line and qualify for Medicaid. It was also a tax filing nightmare, I spent days trying to figure out if she had to get on Obamacare or pay a penalty as well. The law wasn’t totally clear so I just claimed a full year exception for her, who knows if she really qualified for that - but fortunately it worked (or they didn’t get caught… who knows). I also spend hours on the phone with the Obamacare folks trying to resolve these issues (to no avail). Fortunately once his wife started working she could include him on her employer’s plan. He would rather vomit blood than get back on Obamacare!
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 28 Jan 2023 3:37 am

Good God, that's so confusing!

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by malcontent » Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:48 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 3:37 am
Good God, that's so confusing!
And that is why I get rather peeved when people hold up Obamacare as the best thing since sliced bread. Of course, nobody who praises it has ever been on it or experienced it personally. They are just parroting the propaganda from the left, while I get cancelled for saying anything negative about it — my brother’s experience is dismissed as an extreme outlier (but really, it just doesn’t fit the narrative).
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:28 pm

malcontent wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:48 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 3:37 am
Good God, that's so confusing!
And that is why I get rather peeved when people hold up Obamacare as the best thing since sliced bread. Of course, nobody who praises it has ever been on it or experienced it personally. They are just parroting the propaganda from the left, while I get cancelled for saying anything negative about it — my brother’s experience is dismissed as an extreme outlier (but really, it just doesn’t fit the narrative).
I was actually pretty excited about Obamacare when it was introduced, I've always believed that the US could learn a thing or two about government-provided healthcare from European countries, and SG. In recent years, I've been made aware of the reality. Still, I want to say it's a step in the right direction.

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by malcontent » Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:00 am

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:28 pm
malcontent wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:48 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 3:37 am
Good God, that's so confusing!
And that is why I get rather peeved when people hold up Obamacare as the best thing since sliced bread. Of course, nobody who praises it has ever been on it or experienced it personally. They are just parroting the propaganda from the left, while I get cancelled for saying anything negative about it — my brother’s experience is dismissed as an extreme outlier (but really, it just doesn’t fit the narrative).
I was actually pretty excited about Obamacare when it was introduced, I've always believed that the US could learn a thing or two about government-provided healthcare from European countries, and SG. In recent years, I've been made aware of the reality. Still, I want to say it's a step in the right direction.
The entire system needs major reforms, and not the kind that taxpayers need to fund - rather, the kind the special interests and lobbyists would hate. There are perverted incentives riddled throughout the system, including Obamacare itself. Doctors are incentivized to jack up costs unnecessarily, and there is rampant fraud. Just about every health related interaction my mom has had in the past few years had proven this out. It’s disgusting.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 29 Jan 2023 2:14 am

malcontent wrote:
Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:00 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:28 pm
malcontent wrote:
Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:48 pm


And that is why I get rather peeved when people hold up Obamacare as the best thing since sliced bread. Of course, nobody who praises it has ever been on it or experienced it personally. They are just parroting the propaganda from the left, while I get cancelled for saying anything negative about it — my brother’s experience is dismissed as an extreme outlier (but really, it just doesn’t fit the narrative).
I was actually pretty excited about Obamacare when it was introduced, I've always believed that the US could learn a thing or two about government-provided healthcare from European countries, and SG. In recent years, I've been made aware of the reality. Still, I want to say it's a step in the right direction.
The entire system needs major reforms, and not the kind that taxpayers need to fund - rather, the kind the special interests and lobbyists would hate. There are perverted incentives riddled throughout the system, including Obamacare itself. Doctors are incentivized to jack up costs unnecessarily, and there is rampant fraud. Just about every health related interaction my mom has had in the past few years had proven this out. It’s disgusting.
Completely agree, an overhaul is long overdue.

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by singaporeflyer » Mon, 12 Jun 2023 10:51 am

Any recommendations on where I can look for reasonably priced progressive glasses? Looking at Owndays and Lenskart for a start and looks the starting price is around 350 SGD with the frame for progressive glasses.

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Re: looking for eye clinic / doctor

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 12 Jun 2023 1:11 pm

I got a pair from Owndays about 4 years ago before I retired and almost wrecked the company car on the way home from work. (Progressive trifocals). Sadly the center (PC distance) focal was way to narrow and not across the whole lens so was hard to used and when I spent 10+ hrs a day on the PC (dual monitors) I still had to keep turning my head to scan across the screen. Add to that when driving, I glance down to see the dashboard guages the whole dash board looked like waves. Lost my concentration several time and also felt like vertigo. Stopped wearing them after a week of hell. Not worn them since.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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