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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 9:08 am

Plavt wrote:The crux of the matter is there are as your post implies too many people who just do not like the idea of a black man for president (seems that includes you).


And where did you get a silly idea like that? Where have I ever alluded that I am a racist except during my childhood due to societal norms where I lived. Try reading the lines and not between them. I'm not sophisticated enough to write sublime messages in my text. I have all I can do to string enough words together in a line to make a semi-coherent sentence and my typos don't help either. :? Maybe that's why my writing style is so blunt?

As far as your preceding sentence, yes, there are a lot of them out there. Kinda like here in the news yesterday morning. "Is Singapore ready for a Minority PM?" The answer? NO! So much for the vaunted Multi-racial country they run around the world proclaiming. While we have moved up a notch, not all move up at the same speed.

It's those who haven't that I worry about. And as r.n.t. just pointed out there are not only the backwoods types, there are the boardroom & educator types as well. (fair enough, I used a stereotypical view that the majority use) I believe the Unabomber was an assistant professor at UCLA Berkley wasn't he? So if 48% (virtually half of the voters) are nutters, then if it ain't me, it's gotta be the guy standing beside me right? :P

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 9:09 am

r.n.t., you took the bait too easy this morning! I deliberately put quotes around that just to get a response from you. As usual, you didn't disappoint..... :P :wink:

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Postby road.not.taken » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 9:18 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:r.n.t., you took the bait too easy this morning! I deliberately put quotes around that just to get a response from you. As usual, you didn't disappoint..... :P :wink:


And neither did you my old friend, you're writing and meaning was "crystal clear" as usual.

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Postby hibri2 » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:55 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:How are they similar and by what convoluted and strange twisting of common definitions do you come up with something like that? :?


sundaymorningstaple, here you have my convoluted and strange twisting of stuff (to the rest, following is tl;dr material):

by the way, before we continue, i try to be subjective by choice, eh? its just a debate not truth competition (i dont believe in such a thing as truth)

sources: many

recommended reading: Wayne Madsen and Edward Jayne

1.

Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority, but was forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office.


2.

Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized disaster, in Hitler�s case the Reichstag fire, in Bush�s case the 9-11 catastrophe.


3.

Like Hitler, Bush went on to pursue a reckless foreign policy without the mandate of the electorate and despite the opposition of most foreign nations.


4.

Like Hitler, Bush has increased his popularity (note: article is from 2003) with conservative voters by mounting an aggressive public relations campaign against foreign enemies. Just as Hitler cited international communism to justify Germany�s military buildup, Bush has used Al Qaeda and the so-called Axis of Evil to justify our current military buildup. Paradoxically none of the nations in this axis--Iraq, Iran and North Korea--have had anything to do with each other.


5.

Like Hitler, Bush has promoted militarism in the midst of economic recession (or depression as it was called during the thirties). First he used war preparations to help subsidize defense industries (Halliburton, Bechtel, Carlyle Group, etc.) and presumably the rest of the economy on a trickle-down basis. Now he turns to the very same corporations to rebuild Iraq, again without competitive bidding and at extravagant profit levels.


6.

Like Hitler, Bush displays great populist enthusiasm in his patriotic speeches, but primarily serves wealthy investors who subsidize his election campaigns and share with him their comfortable lifestyle. As he himself jokes, he treats these individuals at the pinnacle of our economy as his true political �base.�


7.

Like Hitler, Bush envisages our nation�s unique historic destiny almost as a religious cause sanctioned by God. Just as Hitler did for Germany, he takes pride in his �providential� role in spreading his version of Americanism throughout the entire world.


8.

Like Hitler, Bush promotes a future world order that guarantees his own nation�s hegemonic supremacy rather than cooperative harmony under the authority of the United Nations (or League of Nations).


9.

Like Hitler, Bush quickly makes and breaks diplomatic ties, and he offers generous promises that he soon abandons, as in the cases of Mexico, Russia, Afghanistan, and even New York City. The same goes for U.S. domestic programs. Once Bush was elected, many leaders of these programs learned to dread his making any kind of an appearance to praise their success, since this was almost inevitably followed by severe cuts in their budgets.


10.

Like Hitler, Bush scraps international treaties, most notably the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological Weapons Convention, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the Convention on the Prohibition of Land Mines, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Kyoto Global Warming Accord, and the International Criminal Court.


11.

Like Hitler, Bush repeats lies often enough that they come to be accepted as the truth. Bush and his spokesmen argued, for example, that they had taken every measure possible to avoid war, than an invasion of Iraq would diminish (not intensify) the terrorist threat against the U.S., that Iraq was linked with Al Qaeda, and that nothing whatsoever had been achieved by U.N. inspectors to warrant the postponement of U.S. invasion plans. All of this was false. They also insisted that Iraq hid numerous weapons it did not possess since the mid-190s, and they refused to acknowledge the absence of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq since the early nineties. As perhaps to be expected, they indignantly accused others of deception and evasiveness.


12.

Like Hitler, Bush incessantly shifted his arguments to justify invading Iraq--from Iraq�s WMD threat to the elimination of Saddam Hussein, to his supposed Al Qaeda connection, to the creation of Iraqi democracy in the Middle East as a model for neighboring states, and back again to the WMD threat. As soon as one excuse for the war was challenged, Bush advanced to another, but only to shift back again at another time.


13.

Like Hitler, Bush and his cohorts emphasize the ruthlessness of their enemies in order to justify their own. Just as Hitler cited the threat of communist violence to justify even greater violence on the part of Germany, the bush team justified the invasion of Iraq by emphasizing Hussein�s crimes against humanity over the past twenty-five years. However, these crimes were for the most part committed when Iraq was a client-ally of the U.S. Our government supplied Hussein with illegal weapons (poison gas included), and there were sixty U.S. advisors in Iraq when these weapons were put to use (see NY Times, Aug. 18, 1992). U.S. aid to Iraq was actually doubled afterwards despite disclaimers from Washington that our nation opposed their use. President Reagan�s special envoy Donald Rumsfeld personally informed Hussein of this one hundred percent increment during one of his two trips to Iraq at the time. He also told Hussein not to take U.S. disclaimers seriously.


14.

Like Hitler, Bush takes pride in his status as a �War President,� and his global ambition makes him perhaps the most dangerous president in our nation�s history, a �rogue� chief executive capable of waging any number of illegal preemptive wars. He fully acknowledges his willingness to engage in wars of �choice� as well as wars of necessity. Sooner or later this choice will oblige universal conscription as well as a full-scale war economy.


15.

Like Hitler, Bush continues to pursue war without cutting back on the peacetime economy. Additional to unprecedented low interest rates bestowed by the Federal Reserve, he has actually cut federal taxes twice by substantial amounts, especially for the top one percent of U.S. taxpayers, while conducting an expensive invasion and an even more expensive occupation of a hostile nation. As a result, President Clinton�s $350 billion budget surplus has been reduced to a $450 billion deficit, comprising an unprecedented $800 billion decline in less than four years. At the same time the U.S. dollar has steadily dropped against currencies of both Europe and Japan.


16.

Like Hitler, Bush possesses a war machine much bigger and more effective than the military capabilities of other nations. With the extra financing obliged by the defeat and occupation of Iraq, Bush now relies on a �defense� budget well in excess of the combined military expenditures of the rest of the world. Moreover, the $416 billion defense package passed last week by Congress will probably need to be supplemented before the end of the year.


17.

Like Hitler, bush depends on an axis of collaborative allies, which he describes as a �coalition of the willing,� in order to give the impression of a broad popular alliance. These allies include the U.K. as compared to Mussolini�s Italy, and Spain and Bulgaria, as compared to, well, Spain and Bulgaria, both of which were aligned with Germany during the thirties and World War II. As a result of their cooperation, Prime Minister Blair�s diplomatic reputation has been ruined in England, and a surprising election defeat has produced an unfriendly government in Spain. The Philippines have withdrawn their troops from Iraq to save the life of a hostage, and other defections can be expected in the near future.


18.

Like Hitler, Bush is willing to go to war over the objections of the U.N. (League of Nations). His Iraq invasion was illegal and therefore a war crime as explained by Articles 41 and 42 of the U.N. Charter, which require two votes, not one, by the Security Council before any state takes such an action. First a vote is needed to explore all possibilities short of warfare (in Iraq�s case through the use of U.N. inspectors), and once this has been shown to be fruitless, a second vote is needed to permit military action. U.S. and U.K. delegates at the Security Council prevented this second vote once it was plain they lacked a majority. This was because other nations on the Security Council were satisfied with the findings of U.N. inspectors that no weapons of mass destruction had yet been found. Minus this second vote, the invasion was illegal. Bush also showed in the process that he has no qualms about bribing, bullying, and insulting U.N. members, even tapping their telephone lines. This was done with undecided members of the Security Council as well as the U.N. Secretary General when the U.S.-U.K. resolution was debated preceding the invasion.


19.

Like Hitler, Bush launches unilateral invasions on a supposedly preemptive basis. Just as Hitler convinced the German public to think of Poland as a threat to Germany in 1939 (for example in his Sept. 19 speech), Bush wants Americans to think of Iraq as having been a �potential� threat to our national security--indeed as one of the instigators of the 9-11 attack despite a complete lack of evidence to support this claim.


20.

Like Hitler, Bush depends on a military strategy that features a �shock and awe� blitzkrieg beginning with devastating air strikes, then an invasion led by heavy armored columns.


21.

Like Hitler, Bush is willing to inflict high levels of bloodshed against enemy nations. Between 20,000 and (more probably) 37,000 are now estimated to have been killed, as much as a ro-1 kill ratio compared to the more than 900 Americans killed. In other words, for every U.S. fatality, probably as many as forty Iraqi have died.


22.

Like Hitler, Bush is perfectly willing to sacrifice life as part of his official duty. This would be indicated by the unprecedented number of prisoners executed during his service as governor of Texas. Under no other governor in the history of the United States were so many killed.


23.

Like Hitler, Bush began warfare on a single front (Al Qaeda quartered in Afghanistan), but then expanded it to a second front with Iraq, only to be confronted with North Korea and Iran as potential third and fourth fronts. Much the same thing happened to Hitler when he advanced German military operations from Spain to Poland and France, then was distracted by Yugoslavia before invading the USSR in 1941. Today, bush seems prevented by the excessive costs of the Iraqi debacle from going to war elsewhere if reelected, but not through any lack of desire.


24.

Like Hitler, Bush has no qualms about imposing �regime change� by installing Quisling-style client governments backed by a U.S. military occupation with both political and economic control entirely in the hands of Americans. It is no surprise that Iyad Alawi, Iraq�s current temporary prime minister, was once affiliated with the CIA and has been reliably reported by the Australian press to have executed six hooded prisoners with a handgun to their heads just a day or two before his appointment a couple weeks ago.


25.

Like Hitler, Bush curtails civil liberties in captive nations and depends on detention centers (i.e., concentration camps) such as a Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and any number of secret interrogation centers across the world. Prisoners at the camps go unidentified and have no legal rights as ordinarily guaranteed by the Geneva Conventions. They have also been detained indefinitely (for 2 � years already at Guantanamo Bay), though there is mounting evidence that many are innocent of what they have been charged--some, for example, having been randomly seized by Northern Alliance troops in Afghanistan for an automatic bounty from U.S. commanders. Moreover, many Iraqi prisoners have been tortured, in many instances just short of death. Recent U.S. documents disclose that as many twenty have died while being tortured, and twenty others have died under unusual circumstances yet to be determined.


26.

Like Hitler, Bush uses the threat of enemies abroad to stir the fearful allegiance of the U.S. public. For example, he features public announcements of possible terrorist attacks in order to override embarrassing news coverage or to crowd from headlines positive coverage of Democratic Party activities. He also uses the threat of terrorism to justify extraordinary domestic powers granted by the Patriot Act. Even the books we check out of public libraries can be kept on record by federal agents.


27.

Like Hitler, Bush depends on a propaganda machine to guarantee sympathetic news management. In Hitler�s case news coverage was totally dominated by Goebbels; in Bush�s case reporters have been almost totally �imbedded� by both military spokesmen and wealthy media owners sympathetic with Bush. The most obvious case is the Fox news channel, owned and controlled by Rupert Murdoch. Not surprisingly, recent polls indicate that the majority of Fox viewers still think Hussein played a role in the 9-11 attack.


28.

Like Hitler, Bush increasingly reduces the circle of aides he feels he can trust as his policies keep boomeranging at his own expense. Just as Hitler ended up isolated in his headquarters, with few individuals granted access, Bush is now said to be limiting access primarily to Attorney General Ashcroft (who also talks with God on a regular basis) as well as Karl Rove, the Vice President, Karen Hughes, and a few others. Both Secretary of State Powell and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld are now said to be out of the loop.


29.

Like Hitler, Bush has become obsessed with his vision of conflict between good (U.S. patriotism) and evil (anti-Americanism. Many in contact with the White House are said to be worried that he is beginning to lose touch with reality--perhaps resulting from the use of medication that seriously distorts his judgment. Possibly symptomatic of this concern is the increasing number of disaffected government officials who leak embarrassing documents.


30.

Like Hitler, bush takes pleasure in the mythology of frontier justice. As a youth Hitler read and memorized the western novels of Karl May, and Bush retains into his maturity his fascination with simplistic cowboy values. He also exaggerates a cowboy twang despite his C-average elitist education at Andover, Yale, and Harvard.


31.

Like Hitler, Bush misconstrues Darwinism, in Hitler�s case by treating the Aryan race as being superior on an evolutionary basis, in Bush�s case by rejecting science for fundamentalist creationism



sundaymorningstaple wrote:Normally your responses provoke thought. This time they just provoked a bellylaugh. :lol:


he he he, i wont mind either way, its honorable to be able to provoke thought and laughter to those around.
Last edited by hibri2 on Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby hibri2 » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:03 am

earthfriendly wrote:As a society, we expect men to be tough and less expressive of their emotional needs. And sometimes with undesirable and unhealthy results too.


EF your two posts about the crying thing were really good! well put!, one of the reasons im so happy to have been raised in a matriarchal hippie commune!

:-|
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 1:36 pm

Just had a read of your radical cut & paste job. Seem it's it's in complete contradiction to your earlier statement to my earlier post:

disagree,

history by definition cant repeat itself, thats an illusion...

events lead to differents outcomes...


Something about petards and hoist perchance?

Surely you can come up with something that is relevant and not just Edward Jayne's personal warped views. Don't you have any thought's of your own?
:-|

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Postby hibri2 » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 2:00 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Just had a read of your radical cut & paste job.


i put the sources and the names so im not taking credit for it, i do agree (generally) with the statements.


sundaymorningstaple wrote:Seem it's it's in complete contradiction to your earlier statement to my earlier post:


why? if you read it you will see that its about similarities not repeating, 1930's and 2000's conditions are not the same, yet we can find similarities.

maybe im not explaining myself correctly (i posted somewhere else that i finish my delicious south american coffee and now im drinking some instant crap) but, what im trying to say its that the whole concept of saying that not understanding history "dooms" us to repeat it its, well, is basically a bunch of crap.

then, i also tried (and maybe failed) to portrait that history as a subjective thing could be used to find similarities among to very different points of time..

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Surely you can come up with something that is relevant and not just Edward Jayne's personal warped views.


i do find most of the points relevant and not warped... i mean, Jayne is not the first not will be the only or last to point out the similarities.

sundaymorningstaple wrote: Don't you have any thought's of your own?
:-|


i do, but i rarely use them in public, normally i point out to sources and points of views and let the others gather their own conclusions.

as a matter of fact, sometimes pointing out to certain sources (which i may or may not agree with) allows me to see and understand (and maybe learn) from another's person angle, opinion, etc.

like the guy who plays against two chess masters players by using one's moves against the other, get it?

to conclude, i do agree with you on the honeymoon thingy, the whole idealistic hype and many other core points of your posts.

now, instead of being sarcastic or cynical (which, by the way, its totally ok and an acceptable response to life in general; and i wont judge anyone for that) i do hope and rather be disappointed one more time, its just a choice.
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Postby Bafana » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 4:20 pm

Still reckon Obama's win was a win the whole of humanity.

Don't think Bush is Hitler for a second - Don't think he was that good or bad - He was just Bush. Besides have not seen the Concentration Camps sopringing up all over America gasing poor innocents or his invasion of europe. Whilst I think you have good arguements this comparision is a little bit out there.
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Postby hibri2 » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 7:08 pm

Bafana wrote: Besides have not seen the Concentration Camps sopringing up all over America gasing poor innocents or his invasion of europe. .


two things,

first, concentration camps, which were used by all factions in the WW2 (actually based on a concept invented by the british during the boer wars) were not public knowledge till the end of the war, still not acknowledged by the "winners" in most cases and contested by the japanese... so, time will tell.

second, dont forget guantanamo and the whole rendition / secret prisons situation.

well guys and gals! have a nice weekend... me, im gonna grab an ale and hope for the best :-D
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Postby saint73 » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 8:55 pm

Plavt wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote: You all think all 48% are nutters anyway because they didn't vote for Obama. :P


:lol:


Too many people who just do not like the idea of a black man for president (seems that includes you). Little wonder America is seen as a racist country amongst so many other things in other parts of the world. I hope Obama's election changes things.


Do you think Americia will support woman for president?? :D
If palin election to be president :roll:

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 07 Nov 2008 9:40 pm

And you guys think I'm out of my depth? :roll:

Saint73, haven't you watched any TV at all? We had one woman in the primaries and one running as VP. Obviously there were those who didn't vote for them for their own reasons, but you can bet that most of those reasons weren't because they were women. Lack of experience maybe, carrying too much baggage maybe, but definitely not because of their gender. I know you are Asian and have a patriarchal society but even that is changing slowly as more and more women become highly educated. Better get used to it, before your ego suffers a crushing blow.

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Postby hibri2 » Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:27 am

earthfriendly wrote:I wonder what are they celebrating, the city or the man :shock: .


:-D

my very thin understanding of current nipponese (and by some extend) korean culture is that they embrace the tv "idol" trend;

hence, i think they are just in the obama superstar hype.
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Postby saint73 » Mon, 10 Nov 2008 6:14 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:And you guys think I'm out of my depth? :roll:

Saint73, haven't you watched any TV at all? We had one woman in the primaries and one running as VP. Obviously there were those who didn't vote for them for their own reasons, but you can bet that most of those reasons weren't because they were women. Lack of experience maybe, carrying too much baggage maybe, but definitely not because of their gender. I know you are Asian and have a patriarchal society but even that is changing slowly as more and more women become highly educated. Better get used to it, before your ego suffers a crushing blow.


=; NO..NO... You are wrong, I did not look down on woman as I know more women are well educated...of cos I know your country got woman as an VP...I meant is president not VP...

I did not condemn women :P I am proud of women better than guy in the society... =D>


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