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A Caucasian Singaporean?

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dcglim
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Postby dcglim » Wed, 07 May 2008 4:52 am

cutiebutie wrote:Ah, so then we have different interpretations of what multi-culturalism is.

But yes, I would say that Singapore is a multi-cultural country.

(Speaking of the HDB housing regulations, you should have a look at Malalysia, who have a certain similar system for housing purchases, but the races do not live together, rather in self-styled ghettos. Not nice.)


cutiebutie,

I'm playing devil's advocate here.

If you look at things objectively, Singapore is a predominantly Chinese city-state surrounded by Malay neighbours.

I'm not Singaporean myself but a Bruneian who visits Singapore regularly.

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Postby cutiebutie » Wed, 07 May 2008 8:25 pm

Yes, Singapore is predominantly Chinese, according to the latest figures;

Chinese 76.8%, Malay 13.9%, Indian 7.9%, other 1.4%

That's fairly mixed, I'd say. look at the public holidays, religions, festivals end so on and so on.

It is irrelevant, in this instance, what or who Singapore is surrounded by.
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 07 May 2008 10:35 pm

cutiebutie wrote:Yes, Singapore is predominantly Chinese, according to the latest figures;

Chinese 76.8%, Malay 13.9%, Indian 7.9%, other 1.4%

Nice piece of research, CB.

I'm guessing those figures refer to Singapore citizens? If we include PRs and those on all sorts of work permits, the multi-cultural mix probably becomes more er... multi-cultural. It certainly feels that way these days.

That said, I'm not sure that multi-racial equals multi-cultural. Chinese, Malay or Indian, we can be very mono-culturally Singaporean (embarassingly kiasu, politically apathetic etc, and of course singularly wonderful :D ). Anyway some people would argue that Singaporeans aren't very cultured at all to begin with. :wink:

I think in Singapore's case the most 'multi' aspect is the multi-religious. I don't have the figures but am guessing it's roughly 15% Christian (with all its various denominations), 20% Buddhist, 15% Taoist, 15% Muslim, 10% Hindu, 10% atheist and 15% agnostic or something like that. It's a pretty even spread and I don't think many countries have this mix.

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Postby ksl » Wed, 07 May 2008 11:30 pm

Aren't we forgetting that the USA and Europe is made up of many different Countries, and the little red dot, is all alone, with a majority of Chinese rule..

I can't seem to see any difference at all between vast United States, and Europe, where restrictions on quotas exist and Singapore, other than Singapore is better managed, and seen to be more integrated, than the likes of Bradford, wolverhampton and other Cities, were ethnic races have taken over.

I find Singapore methods of deployment more acceptable, although I can also see the frustration it causes, by limiting choice. I know in areas of the UK now, it is not safe to walk the street if you are not of the same hood. I would rather see more mixed housing estates, and if it meant only one Brit to one Block, that would be great too, I wouldn't have to keep loaning my tools out :lol:

I don't mind that the Chinese rule, I believe we all know what would happen if opposing parties got in, it would be just has chaotic as any other Country, with personal career taking precedence, over development. Although what do I really know, I'm not up to date on the history of Singapore, although I have never really looked at Singapore, other than it being a trading hub, and strategically significant for the USA & UK.
I also believe that Singaporeans, that are born here, to parents from other Countries, have difficulty supporting Singapore as their Country, in many cases, so what would happen, if Singapore government accepted full political equality, I can only vision a very weak commitment of loyalty to the Red Dot.

It could be a very interesting discussion to here the pro's and cons..although it does remain a multi national Country, much better off, than many places in the US and UK.

But what does one compare it to, other than life back home, and if I look at my roots, and the City of my birth, which has very long history, and of which i am very proud of being a Lancastrian.

I feel damn well let down by groups of local authorities that have the powers over the people, to screw them left right and centre, and for Government to stand up and say, well Its not our responsibility, because we have decentralised power. The local police force has financial targets to meet, rather than police crime, the only extra cash comes from handing out fines, with speed cameras set every 200 mtrs.

If you check the BBC website for yesterday, the UK have 4 million CTTV cameras which haven't helped lower crime, quite the opposite, the criminals love to perform for the cameras,

I don't think anyone in Singapore even expects full equality anyway, to be honest, even though it would be nice to see some changes or encouragement.

SMS 25 years is a very long time, I sympathise with you, You deserve a long service medal, and I also think you can't wait for your retirement, back to the ranch, I envy you, I'm still lost to where I will end up, but I doubt I will remain here until I die.....the strangest thing of all, was my vision in a dream, that i would come back to Singapore to live, nothing that I have planned, and it was before I remarried.

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Postby road.not.taken » Thu, 08 May 2008 6:05 am

ksl wrote:Aren't we forgetting that the USA... is made up of many different Countries,


:o

Your meaning was clear, even if your typing couldn't keep up. :)

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Postby dcglim » Thu, 08 May 2008 8:32 pm

cutiebutie wrote:Yes, Singapore is predominantly Chinese, according to the latest figures;

Chinese 76.8%, Malay 13.9%, Indian 7.9%, other 1.4%

That's fairly mixed, I'd say. look at the public holidays, religions, festivals end so on and so on.

It is irrelevant, in this instance, what or who Singapore is surrounded by.


Your response sounds contradictory. You agree, that demographically Singapore is predominantly Chinese, so how come its "fairly mixed"??

Politically, Singapore is Chinese ruled. Just look at the cabinet & previous PM's. 15 out of 20 ministers are Chinese. The president as you know is largely a figurehead & does not run government from day to day. Contrast this to Singapore's neighbours, like Malaysia & Indonesia which are Malay-ruled.

Language-wise, the 2 most useful languages in Singapore are English and Chinese. In Malaysia & Indonesia, its Bahasa Melayu. I know Malay & tamil are official languages in Singapore too, but let's be honest, how useful are they compared to English or Chinese?

Economically, Singapore is Chinese dominated. Look at Singapore's stockmarket, which consists of large companies run by the Chinese. Look at Forbe's list of the 10 wealthiest Singaporeans. All are Chinese!http://uk.reuters.com/article/airNews/idUKSIN27040320070823?sp=true How many shops along Orchard road have Tamil or Malay names? Not many compared to Chinese names.

Educationally, the Malays lag behind the Chinese when it comes to grades in school & college. The government openly acknowledges this problem is trying its best to rectify it.

In contrast to its neighbours, Singapore feels very Chinese. (with some Western influence to be precise). Sure, you have holidays from other cultures, but it really feels like a token gesture. The national anthem is in Malay, but how many Chinese Singaporeans can speak Malay to a conversational level? I certainly have not come across many.

I respectfully disagree that Singapore is culturally mixed. :D

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Postby cutiebutie » Thu, 08 May 2008 9:04 pm

dcglim wrote:
cutiebutie wrote:Yes, Singapore is predominantly Chinese, according to the latest figures;

Chinese 76.8%, Malay 13.9%, Indian 7.9%, other 1.4%

That's fairly mixed, I'd say. look at the public holidays, religions, festivals end so on and so on.

It is irrelevant, in this instance, what or who Singapore is surrounded by.


Your response sounds contradictory. You agree, that demographically Singapore is predominantly Chinese, so how come its "fairly mixed"??

I fail to see what is contradictory about it. Fairly mixed, as in quite, not equal. I thought anyone would see that.


Politically, Singapore is Chinese ruled. Just look at the cabinet & previous PM's. 15 out of 20 ministers are Chinese. The president as you know is largely a figurehead & does not run government from day to day. Contrast this to Singapore's neighbours, like Malaysia & Indonesia which are Malay-ruled.
15 out of 20? Does that fairly well equate to the population mix? Malaysia will never have a Chinese or Indian 'President'. Malay ruled? Yes, of course. they also have a majority of Malays. I don't see your point here.


Language-wise, the 2 most useful languages in Singapore are English and Chinese. In Malaysia & Indonesia, its Bahasa Melayu. I know Malay & tamil are official languages in Singapore too, but let's be honest, how useful are they compared to English or Chinese?
So, now you argue against yourself by saying that Singapore is even legally multi-cultural, having many official, languages and religions. For your information in Malaysia English is the common language of 'inter-racial' communication. Again, how does this figure with your argument?

Economically, Singapore is Chinese dominated. Look at Singapore's stockmarket, which consists of large companies run by the Chinese. Look at Forbe's list of the 10 wealthiest Singaporeans. All are Chinese!http://uk.reuters.com/article/airNews/idUKSIN27040320070823?sp=true How many shops along Orchard road have Tamil or Malay names? Not many compared to Chinese names.
And your point is? Now you are bringing economics into the equation? Pointless, really, as it is not germane to the topic.


Educationally, the Malays lag behind the Chinese when it comes to grades in school & college. The government openly acknowledges this problem is trying its best to rectify it.
Again,how does this support your argument? The government sees a problem and tries, however, ineffectually, to address it. Look at your two chosen samples, Malaysia and Indonesia. Malaysia sees a predominance of Chinese having the highest marks and has to issue absolute quotas from university entrance acceptances to government employees. That is overt discrimination.


In contrast to its neighbours, Singapore feels very Chinese. (with some Western influence to be precise). Sure, you have holidays from other cultures, but it really feels like a token gesture. The national anthem is in Malay, but how many Chinese Singaporeans can speak Malay to a conversational level? I certainly have not come across many.

Singapore feels very Chinese? Goodness gracious, perhaps that is because the majority are Chinese. Strange that.
I can't speak much Malay, what is your point? How many malays speak Chinese or Tamil? Irrelvant.


I respectfully disagree that Singapore is culturally mixed. :D
And you may,of course :)


Now my little fingers are all typed out. :)
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 08 May 2008 9:56 pm

cutiebutie wrote:
dcglim wrote:
cutiebutie wrote:Yes, Singapore is predominantly Chinese, according to the latest figures;

Chinese 76.8%, Malay 13.9%, Indian 7.9%, other 1.4%

That's fairly mixed, I'd say. look at the public holidays, religions, festivals end so on and so on.

It is irrelevant, in this instance, what or who Singapore is surrounded by.


Your response sounds contradictory. You agree, that demographically Singapore is predominantly Chinese, so how come its "fairly mixed"??

I fail to see what is contradictory about it. Fairly mixed, as in quite, not equal. I thought anyone would see that.

Fairly mixed would equate in most people minds as something closer to no more than a 50% majority, not better than 75%.

Politically, Singapore is Chinese ruled. Just look at the cabinet & previous PM's. 15 out of 20 ministers are Chinese. The president as you know is largely a figurehead & does not run government from day to day. Contrast this to Singapore's neighbours, like Malaysia & Indonesia which are Malay-ruled.
15 out of 20? Does that fairly well equate to the population mix? Malaysia will never have a Chinese or Indian 'President'. Malay ruled? Yes, of course. they also have a majority of Malays. I don't see your point here.

As you well know, the ONLY reason that there are an amount equal to the racial percentages is because of using the GRC method. When voting is first past the post, left up to the general population, there would be 100% Chinese MPs only. It was a SOP to the minorities that GRC's were created so that they could have a occasional ethnic minority MP without chancing their stranglehold in Parliament. This way they SEEM to be catering to the minorities when in fact there is no danger to them at all. As an added benefit is made it hard for the opposition to field a full team to contest that GRC

Language-wise, the 2 most useful languages in Singapore are English and Chinese. In Malaysia & Indonesia, its Bahasa Melayu. I know Malay & tamil are official languages in Singapore too, but let's be honest, how useful are they compared to English or Chinese?
So, now you argue against yourself by saying that Singapore is even legally multi-cultural, having many official, languages and religions. For your information in Malaysia English is the common language of 'inter-racial' communication. Again, how does this figure with your argument?

Economically, Singapore is Chinese dominated. Look at Singapore's stockmarket, which consists of large companies run by the Chinese. Look at Forbe's list of the 10 wealthiest Singaporeans. All are Chinese!http://uk.reuters.com/article/airNews/idUKSIN27040320070823?sp=true How many shops along Orchard road have Tamil or Malay names? Not many compared to Chinese names.
And your point is? Now you are bringing economics into the equation? Pointless, really, as it is not germane to the topic.


Educationally, the Malays lag behind the Chinese when it comes to grades in school & college. The government openly acknowledges this problem is trying its best to rectify it.
Again,how does this support your argument? The government sees a problem and tries, however, ineffectually, to address it. Look at your two chosen samples, Malaysia and Indonesia. Malaysia sees a predominance of Chinese having the highest marks and has to issue absolute quotas from university entrance acceptances to government employees. That is overt discrimination.


In contrast to its neighbours, Singapore feels very Chinese. (with some Western influence to be precise). Sure, you have holidays from other cultures, but it really feels like a token gesture. The national anthem is in Malay, but how many Chinese Singaporeans can speak Malay to a conversational level? I certainly have not come across many.

Singapore feels very Chinese? Goodness gracious, perhaps that is because the majority are Chinese. Strange that.
I can't speak much Malay, what is your point? How many malays speak Chinese or Tamil? Irrelvant.


I respectfully disagree that Singapore is culturally mixed. :D
And you may,of course :)
I'll just stick with Racially Mixed. Giving little things to the minorities as long as the majority know it can't hurt them is not Culturally Mixed


Now my little fingers are all typed out. :)


But both of my kids benefited from far-sightedness as they speak English, Singlish, Mandarin (2nd language). Again, I had to go to war with the MOE 20 years ago to make it happen.

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Postby dcglim » Fri, 09 May 2008 9:09 pm

cutiebutie,

Thank you for your response.

The point I was trying to make is Singapore isn't really multi-cultural. (as stated on my previous post)

Maybe on the surface, it appears to be the case.

But deeper down, it really has the feel of a Chinese city.

The other languages & cultures have lip service given to them, but that is to keep everybody happy. An example is the national anthem. It is sung in Malay, but how many Singaporeans can speak decent Malay, their "official" language?

We may agree to disagree, but how do other forum users feel?

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maneo
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Postby maneo » Sat, 10 May 2008 12:34 am

Marilah kita bersatu.

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Postby dcglim » Tue, 13 May 2008 9:59 pm

A line from the national anthem doesn't represent coverational Malay.

Wah, handal jua! :D Kamu bolen cakap bahasa melayu kah?

Di mana kamu belajar? Kebanyakkan orang Singapura kurang fasih cakap Melayu.

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Postby maneo » Wed, 14 May 2008 8:24 am

I not so clever, lah.
Saya tak boleh cakap bahasa Melayu.

Point was not to show off conversation in Malay, but rather a sentiment relevant to the thread that just happens to be best stated by the line from the anthem.
We come together as one.

Yes, so few Singaporeans can speak Malay, probably less than 20-25% now.
As the old generation passes on, the fraction of non-Malays speaking Malay will drop even further.

Time for a Speak Malay campaign.
http://www.jucee.org/China/Speak-Malay--campaign.html


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