Questions for foreigners with children in primary schools

[grange9]

Hi,

I have a one year old boy and am looking into kindergarten and primary school options already due to existing waitlists. I took a tour of SAS, and was underwhelmed, I also saw UWC, and thought it was better but questioned whether it was worth the money. I am originally from the US and plan to send my child back there at some point for further education. I have also looked at the local primary school system, which I think is attractive because of the rigorous curriculum and bi-lingual environment, but am concerned because my child, as a non-citizen, will only be able to choose a school at Phase 3 (basically, from only primary schools with leftover spaces after all the citizens and PRs have already chosen). For me, educational cost is an out-of-pocket expense, so I am conscious of cost/benefits. I am sure there are many other parents in my situation. I would like to hear what their thoughts are. I would also like to hear more from parents who put their children through the local primary system here, and whether they think there is a big difference in educational standards between different primary schools here (besides the rich kids/poor kids social status issue which I am less concerned about).

[sprite]

A one year old and you're concerned about academic rigor? Sounds a wee bit over the top. UWC and local school curriculums will make a transition back to US schools problematic when the are older, but should be fine they are about 12. Once they have to decide between a levels, IB and AP its much harder (but not impossible) to move around.

I don't know how relevant this is, but here it goes: I know a lot of 'expats' who placed their children in local school, public and private.

None of them have an education allowance or tuition paid and it was based on economics, not a choice standard of education. With the exception of a few, they are happy.

On the flip side, I don't know anyone who has their tuition paid by the company with kids in local schools.

[sundaymorningstaple]

We lost a very good thread on this subject in the Crash a little while ago. This is another thread but not as in depth.

http://www.singaporeexpats.com/forum/ft ... ng+schools

[sundaymorningstaple]

Another way to look at it is from a more practical point of view.

1. The local school system is "age on age" about 1 to 1.5 years ahead of the International Schools.

2. The scholastic grades in maths & sciences are far advanced of most schools worldwide and the results can be seen in international competitions.

3. The child will learn a 2nd language. This is not a foreign language but a 2nd language which means generally the child will also be able to think in that language as well instead of translating, thinking, re-translating and speaking.

4. With tutoring (recommended) a 2nd language even though not spoken in the home, can be successful. (I did it with both of my children and today they are both fluent in Mandarin without having any Chinese speakers in the house. (Tamil, English & Malay only).

5. With US parents, there is no reason why the child shouldn't be fluent in proper english (or American English ) as well as in the local patois of Singlish as well. Some teachers are bad for using Singlish while teaching, but that is mostly in the local neighbourhood schools. I actually went to my son's school and chastised the teacher and then informed the principle that I would also go to the ministry of education if it continued. Never had another problem in his class. Don't know it other classes changed or not though.

6. If you do decide to return to the US, you will find that if in the International Schools, even if catering for the US educational system, may or may not be on an equal footing when they return. By using the local system, they will be ahead of their peers so they will in effect have a leg up as it were.

7. One other thing. I don't have a clue as to how old you are, nothing meant by that - I'm on the leading edge of the babyboomers - already 60 - been here a quarter of a century. Not sure if you are aware that the current US school system has been constantly dumbing down in order to keep the statistics up. I've been told it will take ~40 years to get it back to where it was 42 years ago when I graduated. I didn't want that type of education for my kids.

Anyway, all this is just food for thought.

sms

[grange9]

I am interested in enrolling my child at local schools for the compelling reasons given above. However, the current primary school balloting rules for local schools would confine my son to phase 3 schools, such as queenstown primary or balestier hill primary (i live in the orchard area). Are such local neighborhood schools so much worse than better known schools like Nanyang primary or ACS primary, that he would be better off just going to UWC?

[sprite]

By using the local system, they will be ahead of their peers so they will in effect have a leg up as it were.

While I agree with most of what sms posted, and understand his children were educated in the local system successfully -- I strongly and completely disagree with this statement, unless you are only considering maths. True, statistically Singaporean children do very well in certain subjects, but its at the cost of a well rounded education, the encouragement of creative thought and the development of the whole child.

Just ask any expat who has interviewed a Singaporean candidate for a job. Ask any question that requires a free thinking, imaginative answer and you'll hear crickets.

[ScoobyDoes]

Just ask any expat who has interviewed a Singaporean candidate for a job. Ask any question that requires a free thinking, imaginative answer and you'll hear crickets.

True but i believe this is changing. The OP is talking about, currently, a 1-yr old so i foresee that in the next 15-yrs it takes the boy to graduate from Secondry we will see a good shift away from current regurgatation.

It's virtually impossible to foresee what teaching methods will be employed by that time......... but also in the International Schools.

SMS is right that i think we currently see a dumbing down of kids in the school systems in the US and UK and this can arguably be transferred to International Schools as they try to keep up with their changing home curriculum as it gets easier, slower and further behind.

At this stage i have no problem putting my 15-month old through local schooling, as either an academic or financial decision.

[sundaymorningstaple]

sprite,

When I put my daughter (eldest) into the local church affiliated kindergarten all those many years ago (18 of 'em) I was fearful of the same thing. Back then it was "rote" learning. But I have always been an involved parent who didn't believe a child's education was solely the responsibility of the school system. It was difficult at times. But as the years have gone by, my son who just finished his O's in November, has had a much more rounded education.

The MOE had realized the problems around 10 years ago and has been making a determined push to a more rounded education. Additionally, the stress level of the "required" 2nd language has been reduced from the academic guidelines re: tertiary education. This is primarily because LKY has finally admitted that it is virtually impossible to be strictly "bilingual" in the truest sense of the word. This has been proven out with the current crop of young adults up to around 30 having rather poor command of both English AND Mandarin.

I have had no problems and my kids integrate easily in any setting by virtue of their linguistic abilities regardless whether it's in an expatriate setting, local setting or mixed venue.

The Curriculum in all schools is the same. The level of the teachers is what is different. The biggest problem I did find is that the school teachers are stressed a bit for lack of time and tend to only read the syllabus and a fair number of them don't really know the subject. Again, they seem to be getting away from this and are reducing the classroom sizes yearly (or are trying to). All schools used exactly the same textbooks throughout the system (within the stream that they are in). Most is determined solely by the attitude of the child and a lot of that come from the parent.

Oh, as an HR Manager and former recruiter, I know exactly what you are talking about! Fortunately, those coming out of the school system here now are a completely different breed of animal. It will be a few more years before we are able to see the results of these changes as most that were affected by the changes in the past 5 years where the majority of changes have taken/are taking place, will not be coming out of universities until another year or so.

[sprite]

Sunday, I don't disagree with what you say, but my opinion -- and it's only my opinion -- is that the better educational experience (read that as what happens before school, after school, and during school) comes from an International School here in Singapore. It is changing, but not soon enough for me and mine.

No one school is right for everyone, and its useless to play 'if only we had done this, or that.' The good news is that there are more options available.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Agreed. For a price. For a lot coming here nowadays, it's not a viable option as the "packages" shrink or are non-existant. You are one of the lucky ones. Had I the wherewithal all those years ago, I might not have viewed it the same I'll admit. Personally though, I feel the cultural immersion wa probably worth at least as much as the cost of the internation schools over the long term.

Although I could have afforded SAS at that time (still on expat status back then), I was more interested in the long term benefits that my kids could enjoy if they were fluent in Mandarin as well as the culture here (while not China it's not Brooklyn either). This wasn't available unless they went through the local system. This will be a major leg up when dealing with China or even Taiwan if they decide to engage in international business. They have dual citizenship and if they opt to go back with me to the US then being non-Chinese with their fluency it will be a major feather in their cap with any potential employer who is engaged in Asia.

But you are absolutely correct in that everybody has a different viewpoint/motive and none are actually right or wrong - just different.

With our prompting each other, we have just about rebuilt the lost thread!

[sprite]

Agreed. For a price. For a lot coming here nowadays, it's not a viable option as the "packages" shrink or are non-existant. You are one of the lucky ones. Had I the wherewithal all those years ago, I might not have viewed it the same I'll admit. Personally though, I feel the cultural immersion wa probably worth at least as much as the cost of the internation schools over the long term.

Although I could have afforded SAS at that time (still on expat status back then), I was more interested in the long term benefits that my kids could enjoy if they were fluent in Mandarin as well as the culture here (while not China it's not Brooklyn either). This wasn't available unless they went through the local system. This will be a major leg up when dealing with China or even Taiwan if they decide to engage in international business. They have dual citizenship and if they opt to go back with me to the US then being non-Chinese with their fluency it will be a major feather in their cap with any potential employer who is engaged in Asia.

But you are absolutely correct in that everybody has a different viewpoint/motive and none are actually right or wrong - just different.

With our prompting each other, we have just about rebuilt the lost thread!

Many children graduate from International Schools (or Taft or Andover) fluent in Mandarin, it's not just a prize held by the few who chose to go to local schools here in Singapore. My friend yanked her kids out of SCGS because they spoke Teochew at home and it was being butchered at school, there were other reasons as well -- but even the language was lacking.

I think what it comes down to, is how heavily you weigh bilingualism as a goal. If it's your top priority, then you can do International Schools with a tutor and some curricular education and recieve a higher standard of overall education at a cost or go the local route and supplement their school experience with life experience to ensure a well-rounded individual.

I'm not 'one' of the lucky ones, there are literally thousand in my position. Packages are shrinking, but there are longer and longer waiting lists, how do you explain it?

[k1w1]

I think there is a widespread idea in Singapore that the local school system is somehow more advanced than the International Schools. I have taught in both systems and have had my kids in both types too. The systems are different and place emphasis on different things - apples and oranges. One is not better (or a higher level) than another, and it's a personal choice as to which way you wish your child to be educated. Having said that, this was a huge reason that I made the move away from the local system and into International Schools almost two years ago - I was not impressed with the system I taught in, and it was not what I wanted for my children.

[madura]

However, the current primary school balloting rules for local schools would confine my son to phase 3 schools, such as queenstown primary or balestier hill primary (i live in the orchard area). Are such local neighborhood schools so much worse than better known schools like Nanyang primary or ACS primary, that he would be better off just going to UWC?

Your son would do much better in queenstown primary or balestier hill primary than nanyang primary. The neighbourhood schools would provide your son with a more rounded education and without the over-emphasis on grades and rote-learning.

[madura]

From an earlier thread (http://www.singaporeexpats.com/forum/ft ... sc-15.html):

"I am sending my son to primary one at Juying Primary in Jurong west. He loves it and I love it as well. Not all local schools use the same teaching styles. Some are only interested in pushing kids to be perfect (which I find riduculous) and others are more relaxed."

Neighbourhood schools can be a much better option than those fancy brand name local schools.

[boffenl]

Sorry, just picking up on this thread--again!

My daughter is heading to Primary 1 tomorrow at Pei Tong Primary School. We're US/Canadian. She's been at Learning Vision at National University of Singapore for 8 months.

I was underwhelmed at the Canadian School when we visited. Remarkably different impression when we visited three local schools--all the principals visited with us, and two took us on tours. Amazing!

Yes, we were less than thrilled to wait for the 3rd phase for choice, and our first choice had no spots left. However, our second school, and the one closest to our HDB apt. has worked out really, really well. We received two calls from the principal after registering her--both to check and see if we has any additional questions. Where else has that ever happened?

At the Pei Tong orientation we noticed two other caucasian dads with their Eurasian kids, but our daughter is the only expat kid attending. We had plenty of prep for her first day, so I'll write more tomorrow after it's over.