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Looks like we are following Base-9 thinking we are decimal.

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Asdracles
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I agree!!

Postby Asdracles » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:20 am

Thats why some of us put a line crossing the 7 in the middle when we write. Is just overrated. But instead replacing it for another character, we can just supress it and we will be FINALLY in base-9

8-)

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Postby Shankar » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 5:21 pm

banana wrote:
Shankar wrote:
Plavt wrote:#-o


well not to worry.. I have already resolved the problem on my own. But badly needed a copy of this, to log reactions.


Out of curiosity, what conclusion did you come to?


The conclusion was that, 0 is holding the value of 1 in the decimal system.

You will understand this philosophy if you know the difference between a number and its label. So 1 is the name for the first one, and 2 is the name for the second one and so on. But with the inclusion of 0 in decimal syystem, it automatically retains a value of 1/10, for it became the label/name for the first one.

In base-9, we have 1-9 and each one had 1/9th value. Including 0 to make a decimal set from 0-9, the zero became a label just like a character X or Y and any character would have been meaningful instead of zero.

We normally assume that 4/4 or 3/3 results in same 1, but in my finding it is not, as 4/4 = 1 base 4 & 3/3 = 1 base 3. , which only means 1 round.

Cheers!!
recently attained my Nirvaana and became a Budha.

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Postby Plavt » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 5:39 pm

Shankar wrote:The conclusion was that, 0 is holding the value of 1 in the decimal system.



Your conclusion! The rest of your post is BS!

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Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 6:21 pm

Shankar wrote:The conclusion was that, 0 is holding the value of 1 in the decimal system.


Yes, and war is peace, up is down, and big brother loves you.

PS: There is only one person in this thread (and probably anywhere else in the world that knows something of number systems) that has arrived at this conclusion.

What's next, Shankar... a perpetual motion machine?

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Postby Asdracles » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 7:32 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
Shankar wrote:The conclusion was that, 0 is holding the value of 1 in the decimal system.


Yes, and war is peace, up is down, and big brother loves you.

PS: There is only one person in this thread (and probably anywhere else in the world that knows something of number systems) that has arrived at this conclusion.

What's next, Shankar... a perpetual motion machine?


Maybe.... if he takes a look to my never-free office copy-machine, can get that conclusion.

Previous one was even harder!

:cool:

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Postby ksl » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 7:40 pm

I believe that 0 does hold the value of 1 in the decimal system! :wink:
Just like I believe that if you count your fingers backwards 10,9 8, 7, 6 Plus 5 makes 11 :o

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Postby Forks » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 8:19 pm

Im not really that mathematically literate so im going to jump this section and ask what is the practical application of all this, does it mean we need to rejig the number system, or something else, I assume that from all this there must be a reason for doing this so what will this major breakthrough mean?

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Postby banana » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 8:22 pm

Shankar wrote:
banana wrote:
Shankar wrote:
Plavt wrote:#-o


well not to worry.. I have already resolved the problem on my own. But badly needed a copy of this, to log reactions.


Out of curiosity, what conclusion did you come to?


The conclusion was that, 0 is holding the value of 1 in the decimal system.

You will understand this philosophy if you know the difference between a number and its label. So 1 is the name for the first one, and 2 is the name for the second one and so on. But with the inclusion of 0 in decimal syystem, it automatically retains a value of 1/10, for it became the label/name for the first one.

In base-9, we have 1-9 and each one had 1/9th value. Including 0 to make a decimal set from 0-9, the zero became a label just like a character X or Y and any character would have been meaningful instead of zero.

We normally assume that 4/4 or 3/3 results in same 1, but in my finding it is not, as 4/4 = 1 base 4 & 3/3 = 1 base 3. , which only means 1 round.

Cheers!!


How would you then represent 'nothing' in such a system?

There seems to be a linguistic error rather than numerological error in your explanation. 1 out of 10 symbols does not necessarily give each symbol 1/10th the value of what the symbols represent.

Otherwise, allow me to arrange for a million people to give you $0 each and we'll split the total 50/50?
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Postby Shankar » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 9:50 pm

banana wrote:
How would you then represent 'nothing' in such a system?

There seems to be a linguistic error rather than numerological error in your explanation. 1 out of 10 symbols does not necessarily give each symbol 1/10th the value of what the symbols represent.

Otherwise, allow me to arrange for a million people to give you $0 each and we'll split the total 50/50?


So you agree that zero is a representation of Nothing and symbolises nothing as well. Roman X is also ten and 10 is also ten. Just that X is a single digit no. whereas 10 is a double digit. Even in Binary we have 10, and thus we have 0,1,10,11,100,101,110,111,1000.

So 10 here indicates completion of one round and start of another round of what the basis is. So Ternary would be 0,1,2,10,11,12,100... and quaternary would be 0,1,2,3,10,11,12,13,100 and go on and you will find that 10 appears for nanonary.

The logic is that 1 is broken by what the base is (basis) and then added or subtracted in the same ratio. So any number is 1/10th in decimal & 1/2 in Binaryand so on. 2 x 10 = 20 base 10, 2 x 16 = 20 in Hex.

If 0 means nothing, it should not be used, and if used it becomes an element too. But the confusion must have happened due to computers, where the empty bit was used to represent 1 and the filled state was used to represent 2. So 0 & 1 replaced 1 & 2 in binary.
recently attained my Nirvaana and became a Budha.

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Try this

Postby Shankar » Tue, 15 Jul 2008 9:55 pm

ksl wrote:I believe that 0 does hold the value of 1 in the decimal system! :wink:
Just like I believe that if you count your fingers backwards 10,9 8, 7, 6 Plus 5 makes 11 :o


do a reverse count, by showing Ten first, and start counting down by closing each finger. Then see what happens.
recently attained my Nirvaana and became a Budha.

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Re: Try this

Postby ksl » Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:15 am

Shankar wrote:
ksl wrote:I believe that 0 does hold the value of 1 in the decimal system! :wink:
Just like I believe that if you count your fingers backwards 10,9 8, 7, 6 Plus 5 makes 11 :o


do a reverse count, by showing Ten first, and start counting down by closing each finger. Then see what happens.


I did, that's why i agreed that 0 is 1 or equal to a value of 1. But one can also say that all digits have a value of 1 and 0 is not a digit.

Unless you are looking at it from from a numerical digit in mathematics or computer science of which it can be applied.

One can also say there are two sides to everything, a positive & a negative, tangible and intangible, so I see this as acceptable logic, that 0 can be 1 or nothing, depending how one wishes to apply it (label), but it can only be applied to a positive state when it is equal to 1, which maybe tangible, so the 0 is off and the 1 is on. The pH scale goes from 0 to 13 or from 1 to 14 why? because there are 14 positives on the scale, with 0 as a numerical. So logic is also how one perceive it in the instance it is used, it's hypothetically useful at times

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Re: Try this

Postby Shankar » Wed, 16 Jul 2008 5:56 pm

ksl wrote:
I did, that's why i agreed that 0 is 1 or equal to a value of 1. But one can also say that all digits have a value of 1 and 0 is not a digit.

Unless you are looking at it from from a numerical digit in mathematics or computer science of which it can be applied.

One can also say there are two sides to everything, a positive & a negative, tangible and intangible, so I see this as acceptable logic, that 0 can be 1 or nothing, depending how one wishes to apply it (label), but it can only be applied to a positive state when it is equal to 1, which maybe tangible, so the 0 is off and the 1 is on. The pH scale goes from 0 to 13 or from 1 to 14 why? because there are 14 positives on the scale, with 0 as a numerical. So logic is also how one perceive it in the instance it is used, it's hypothetically useful at times


Guess you are almost there. Not an easy bug to trap as it does dodge. Need to approach it by forming a few catechism of our own. Every number is formed by numbers within. Like how dollar is formed by cents & minute is formed by seconds. By ordinary we don't go below cents. But cents too get divided on its own.

Every number is only an arbitrary point (like a milestone) and any point will inturn inherit its starting & ending point. Like in the clock, every number is like the minute which gets determined by seconds. Zero is the myth or the arbitrary point, which is never there, as it is the ending of the previous number & the beginning of a new number.

Whereas we can see that 9 gives the effect of zero and ten in everyway. Try a Decimal clock with ten stops, we can then see that 0 can never be declared as a digit.

If 0 is the first digit, then it gets the value of 1/x of the base(x) in which it is. Else then ten should be a single digit no. like 1-9. say 'a' in hex.

The confusion is also due to 10 being called a number Ten. From another angle I see that, 9 must have been Ten in past. But the difficulty is similar to explaining to the world which has accepted september, october, november, december as the 9th 10th 11th 12th month.. when the very words of the month have septa, octa, novem & deca in it to signify 7,8,9,10.
recently attained my Nirvaana and became a Budha.

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Postby Plavt » Wed, 16 Jul 2008 6:52 pm

Image

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Postby banana » Wed, 16 Jul 2008 6:52 pm

You're confusing representational systems with positional systems. 0 is in the first of ten positions but it does not represent 1/10th of the value. Without 0, we may as well remain in base 1, that is using the same symbol repeated N times to represent the value of N.

I agree that there is some confusion along the way, between scratching out marks on cave walls to the numeric systems we use today, but it is something that the majority of the world has managed to wrap their heads around. What you're suggesting is a step back into the quagmire, not an improvement.
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Postby Shankar » Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:34 pm

banana wrote:You're confusing representational systems with positional systems. 0 is in the first of ten positions but it does not represent 1/10th of the value. Without 0, we may as well remain in base 1, that is using the same symbol repeated N times to represent the value of N.

I agree that there is some confusion along the way, between scratching out marks on cave walls to the numeric systems we use today, but it is something that the majority of the world has managed to wrap their heads around. What you're suggesting is a step back into the quagmire, not an improvement.


I do not know how without a 0, it goes back to Base 1, when it actually goes back to Base-9, since there would be 1-9. And whether you accept it or not, each number gets assigned 1/10th of the value in Base-10 and 1/9th value in Base-9 and 1/2 in Base-2.

Base 1 just has one. In another argument the Biggest no. is also 1 and all other numbers are only a part of it.

Suppose there are 2 pizzas of the same size, and the first one is cut into 4 equal parts & the second one is cut into 6 equal parts, and the pieces on both pizzas are numbered, hope you see that 1 in pizza 1 is not the same as 1 in pizza 2. Similarly, every number has a basis, as to which one it came from.

Moreover, as humans we are object oriented and not digital. Even XII is 12 only to us. But the question here is , if the pizza is cut into Ten pieces, how will you start numbering them ? will you start from 0? or from 1?

And as to what can be done?. Why should anything be done? What have we done after learning that it is the earth that goes around the Sun ? We still tell our kids that Sun rises in the east & sets in the west, when we pretty well know that Sun doesn't do much other than being stationed there. And why should it not be that the entire Solar system including the Milky Way is on another orbit, giving us the impression that it is fixed.

and what can we do about these Monkeys?
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/Articl ... onkeys.htm
recently attained my Nirvaana and became a Budha.


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