Keep or Repeal 377A Petition?

[Wind In My Hair]

However, the mixed marriage is a "CHOICE" of two peoples own free will. I is doubtful that they have spent their whole lives knowing that they HAD to marry someone of a particular race. (which as you should certainly know, there is only one race anyway). You bringing it into this discussion is just blowing smoke thinking that the premise is the same.

I agree the premise isn't the same, but I think what he was trying to say was simply that just as today we view 'mixed race' marriages as normal while 50 years ago it was frowned upon, so 50 years later society may view same-sex marriages as normal even though we frown on it today. The argument holds on social, not legal, grounds.

[zhoumulian]

that was exactly my point and since you can't truly separate the social from the legal, as the social informs the legal, i was just trying to draw the parallel

oh and i'm a she

[Fairness]

I am an average 15 year old student. People would probably think that this has got nothing to do with a teenager such as myself. But I cannot help it but voice my comments as a singaporean when I saw what views others had on homosexuals.

Even though I believe in libertarianism, I am flabbergasted by some negative and insensitive comments made by my fellow singaporeans. I find them all very slanderous and untrue towards the minority.

What are laws exactly? They are rules created by mankind to ensure that justice,freedom and equality are uphold within a society. Section 377A itself creates a paradox and contradicts the meaning of the word law and the word equality. Why is being different from the majority wrong? Would you discrimate a race or religion just because they are different?

We singaporeans are able to accomplish what most country are not able to in the context of living harmoniously with different races, under the identity of singaporeans. Since we are able to overcome such vast differences and accept each other, why cant we do the same now? Women were used to be regarded as inferior when compared to men. But such obsolete thinking belong to the decadent past and has no place in a society such as ours.

If we stand aside and view this entire situation without prejudice, lets question ourselves why exactly do you reject them? Is it because of their sexual orientation? Is it because we are too selfish to accept them as one of us and its easier to just neglect them?

I think its an insult to categorize homosexuality as a crime labeled under the term "sodomy". We are able question our integrity before we commit a crime and all. What of 377A? Does being homosexual deny you the rights of love? Even in private? I thought this entire situation as absurd and preposterous.

Lastly, who are we to even label them as abnormal? They are more like victims of our conservative society. Fault lies in their sexual orientation in which they have absolutely no control of. Is this really what a human being should think of a fellow human being? Such insensitive thinking belong to the past and singaporeans should learn to start accepting diversity insteading discriminating it. Eventually, we know that sooner or later, homosexual will eventually become part of this world. Why? Because it is part of our human nature to love and be loved even if you are different. So why not try to make an effort and learn to accept them as part of us instead of spreading animosity? Will we really view them like how it is if we knew them way before we know of their sexual orientation?

After all this I have said, I would like to make my stand by expressing the fact that I agree fully with abolishing a law of the past. This will ensure fairness in lieu of a society based on justice and equality. The least our government should do is to grant them the most basic rights to them by abolishing the law so as to allow them the freedom equivalent to all mankind and not treat them as rejects of our society.

Since our PM as already mentioned that this law is sort of like a dummy, we already know that sooner or later it will be gone. So why keep it there in false pretence and why not just abolish it once and for all?

[Wind In My Hair]

oh and i'm a she

He, she, can't tell the difference these days... that's the whole point of this thread isn't it?

(I mean, sorry.)

[cutiebutie]

Fairness is 15 as SMS is 25

Brilliant writing for a 15-year old if the age is true.

[Fairness]

I am 15.....Im a secondary school student...And thank you for the compliment.

[ksl]

But not to her, and there's the catch. Pedophiles have victims, homosexuals don't. Pedophiles hurt others, homosexuals don't.

Anyway, there's a ridiculous amount of tosh being tossed around in here, so here's Homosexuality 101 from Alex "Yawning Bread" Au:

http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_1998/yax-117.htm

And drop the ridiculous "lifestyle choice" sh*t. I'm straight as an arrow, but have enough gay/lesbian friends to have seen the kind of bullshit and/or outright physical violence that they have to put up with to assure you that nobody would voluntarily "choose" to become gay.

I found the links very informative but questionable, No1 for example>...I can honestly say, i have seen some very attractive, men, although I have never been sexually attracted to them, I have felt more envious of their good looking features, and body structure and I'm sure their are millions of heterosexual men, with the same thoughts. Although I maybe be a vain buggar....but not homosexual...

Secondly, I have had group sex, involving females, with no sexual contact at all with men, and I have never even felt the inclination, stimulation or attraction, to take part with a person of the same sex......

So I do believe that even though i find some men attractive, I'm still straight as a ruler.....Sorry to thwart all the stupid ideas of gays and bisexuals....that are stuck in the dream state, that all men and women need to let loose and come out of the closet.....I feel quite repulsed by male sex, and turned on by bisexual women, so what does that make me, a deviant right! I've known that all my life

I can live with that! Women are the creations of god and the devil, and i love em all,unfortunately, because of the turmoil they cause, so I'm not gay, just masochistic of the suffering they caused in the early days of my life, today I'm a new man Well done JP, very informative reading on both links!

PS What should the age of consent be for homosexuals then? Personally I think laws should be scrapped, so that we can all return to normal life!

A song comes to mind when reading all your posts.

"Its just me, myself and I".

I agree you have a very good imagination, but a very poor judgement of character, if you can assume that from my posts!

Although you are entitled to live in your dream world of free love. I've also met many, that have voiced the same words, to justify, their own infidelities and fall flat on their faces, when someone comes along and sodomises, their wife just to prove a point of course not without permission, because that would be perversion, two consenting adults, should be the rule of thumb right, to avoid the tag, and some when also love it too, so i have been told!

Does it ring any bells, that it may, or could happen, just has long as you go on preaching free love and to satisfy what, I wonder?

Maybe you sing your own tune my friend, since you brought it up, but it is just an example of how ....people can expect others to be.

Are you old enough to remember the 60's the free love and flower power age, group sex and bisexual freedom.......on drugs that is????

Liberalisation is also showing its flaws in Holland is it not, and why? Is it not a behavioural problem of self satisfaction like you quote! Lack of self discipline, morals, or genetic defects through evolution, there is no real answer just yet!

But I agree they should be all allowed out of the closet and to be treated with respect, it is very unfortunate to be afflicted with such conflict of emotions, and they should be treated the same as any other heterosexuals, that are also having to cope, with psychological and emotional conflict, until they can manage to live a normal life, out of the closet.

I have a very close friend mate called Eric, who is a real fairy princess and he loves the part too, he's never ever been attracted to women, he used to live and work in London as a disc jockey, in Richard Bransons night club..I believe it is a spot for all homosexuals to hang out, though I have never been...

Eric is a person you have to take to like a pinch of salt, he's lovely....very effeminate in all aspects of life, and yes, i do admit, when he shouts after me "darling" down the street, it can be a little over the top, maybe he does, it to wind me up...Although he knows full well, its not homophobia, I'm suffering from or even my ego!

[phil30k]

Hello all,

Here's my own simple take.

****
People create laws.
People enforce laws.
People form society.
Society evolves.
Laws get updated.

If society cannot enforce the laws they created because of their own evolution then it is time to update those laws to keep pace.
****

Yep, plug whatever facts and figues into that but that is basically the way my mind works.

Ah.. the joys of a simple mind.

[phil30k]

I'd like to comment on the matter of the environment of children.

I think what's important is when children hit their teens, parents have to enable them to develop their life views by giving them access to as much varied information as possible and to be as honest as possible with whatever questions they have.

Even if this means taking a hard honest look at their own lives and accomplishments and how they feel about their own accomplishments.

And showing acceptance if the teen makes a decision different from his parents.

I think that's what makes for well adjusted people.

[leona123]

3 main points were discussed in this thread
1) decriminalizing homosexuality
2) allowing same sex marriage
3) allowing homosexuals to have children

With reference to ONLY same sex marriage(ssm), I picked out the following OPINIONS from this discussion board.

1. Homosexuality is abnormal
(Abnormal people shouldn’t get married?)

2. Homosexuality is abhorrent.
(People shouldn’t marry because YOU think their act or they themselves are abhorrent?)

3. Homosexuals have most probably been sexually abused when they were young.
(Sexually abused people should be denied marriage?)

4. Homosexuality is due to hormonal imbalance
(People with hormonal imbalance should be denied marriage?)

5. Homosexuals cannot have children
(People who cannot have children should be denied marriage?)

6. Homosexuality is a behavioural problem
(People who have behavioural problems should be denied marriage?)

Am I missing something out here? Even if all the points above were facts and not just OPINIONS, they don’t seem to be valid reasons to deny homosexuals marriage rights.

[sundaymorningstaple]

You are entitled to your opinions just like everybody else. As am I and as is the Government, right. So?

And, it would appear, that those against are still the majority.

[leona123]

Exactly, sms. All of us are entitled to our OWN opinions. Denying a person the rights to marry whom they choose based on your own opinions IS shoving your opinion down their throats.

As for your majority thingy, times are changing. Smiles

note: when I say your, I am not referring to you. I am referring to those who opine that homosexuals should not marry.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Exactly, sms. All of us are entitled to our OWN opinions. Denying a person the rights to marry whom they choose based on your own opinions IS shoving your opinion down their throats.

Quite right. And it is also the right of each respective government to do so. Those citizens who don't like it are always free to immigrate elsewhere or those foreigner wishing to come here need to accept that or stay home.

As for your majority thingy, times are changing. Smiles

note: when I say your, I am not referring to you. I am referring to those who opine that homosexuals should not marry.

I'm dense sometimes, and I'm an uneducated farmboy, but I am aware of what you meant.

sms

[Wind In My Hair]

All of us are entitled to our OWN opinions. Denying a person the rights to marry whom they choose based on your own opinions IS shoving your opinion down their throats.

Just curious what you think - if opinions are split within a society, then whose opinions should inform the law? The majority, those with God's backing, or those who agree with you? Whose opinion counts more?

[Strong Eagle]

All of us are entitled to our OWN opinions. Denying a person the rights to marry whom they choose based on your own opinions IS shoving your opinion down their throats.

Just curious what you think - if opinions are split within a society, then whose opinions should inform the law? The majority, those with God's backing, or those who agree with you? Whose opinion counts more?

Interesting, that... "those with God's backing". I've not seen God make much of a pronouncement lately (or earlier) one way or the other about anything, although some claim to have heard God (a couple of tea party politicians come to mind). Those that claim God is against homosexuality quote [bold]people[/bold], often those people who had a personal message to convey.

And as for Jesus... he never said a word... not a word... about homosexuality.