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Europe and the constitution

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Thu, 14 Feb 2008 6:41 pm

Superglide wrote:As said Gekko,

go to your beloved Singapore and live there for at least 5 years and then do your analysis.

Europe falling apart is of course nonsense.

When asking an Amsterdam person about his city compared to Rotterdam, he or she will of course favour Amsterdam (or move to Rotterdam).

When asking a person fomr a certain neighbourhood about his or her preferences in the city of Amsterdam, he or she will favour the own neighbourhood.

When asking Europeans whether or not they feel European, I bet the vast majority does so. Nevertheless, the idea of being European still has to settle down and as people are: One will allways find a reason for complaining, when needing reasons.

But let me ask you:

What exactly makes you say Singapore is your heaven?


Singapore is a geat place to visit and a great place to leave, it's a hub, an out station, for many, and I guess it all depends on one's tolerance levels, and motivations in life, but after several years here, I still prefer the European climate. although I am not from Asian descent.

I love Singapore for many other reasons, it is a place of vast change, and importance in the world, unlike my own Country, people have to be motivated to survive, or suffer as the weakest link, so it is a healthy encouragement to be a part of change, compared to a dwindling welfare state, with no initiative, in improving working class standards, eventually the UK may well be the place of investment, because of cheap labour and good standards, but how does that improve the working class wealth benefits and quality of life.

That Countries like Germany, Denmark, Holland, Norway and Sweden have, without having liberal democracy?

I think small is good, and if one looks at Scotland, since gaining a certain political independence, it shows that people can have influence, for a Country that cares about its people.

Singapore on the other hand is used by all, and it's up to the locals to see these opportunities, to take a piece of the cake on offer, with a mass of export opportunities.

Many Countries are simply to large to be compared, with Countries like Singapore and don't have the strategic attraction, as a global player, and are limited to major Cities...outside of the active regions, communities have no idea what is going on in the world..

It really doesn't matter where one lives, providing one can cope in a positive manner, there are many beautiful places in the world, to enjoy,

Back home in my own City, was just far to backward to be productive, and was a City, of insignificance, in terms of internationalisation, with local Council members, with no experience whatsoever, of the world outside. So living life for me, would be not settling down, until, i felt the need to, and that is difficult, if you have been a globe trotter, although one does tend to hate the travelling.

Asia V's Europe is not the case at all, they are all linked to the same destination, of wealth creation, of which is easier in Asia to gain for many, than in Europe, because of taxation.

The benefits of pensions can be better exploited, if one has the ability to manage finance and save.

With a minimum wage of 5 pound in UK, it's a disaster for more than 50% of the population, with a state pension of 80 pound a week. Running after benefits doesn't help!

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Postby GordonGekko » Sun, 17 Feb 2008 5:45 am

Sg: Quite obviously, you are not a big fan of Singapore, so I guess it is futile to try to explain why it's going to be my future home, isn't it?
Your opinionated style of getting your point through [-X does not help much either, as
a. I am more familiar with Singapore and the Singaporean society than you might think. I also have plenty of places to compare with, as I have lived on every continent except Africa.
b. I never use labels like "heaven" of a country. There is no perfect place, but Singapore has three elements that have become scarce in today's world: opportunity, ambition, and order.
and
c. I know my roots very well; I know where I come from. I am proud to be of Finnish origin, but that does not determine my future.
[-(
You claim that EU is not falling apart.
Well, you are free to believe what you will, but without a feeling of togetherness and belonging that project is doomed. I think that the French riots of 2007 and Danish riots of 2008 emphasize part of my point. There are too many small interests in Europe and the welfare cake of each country is getting smaller by the day. Needless to say, I do not believe that neither Scandinavia nor Europe will be good places to live in the future, but be assured: my decision to become Singaporean reaches farther than that. If that makes me traitor to my kind or towards Europe, so be it. :-s

ksl: Great post! =D>
Last edited by GordonGekko on Sun, 17 Feb 2008 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 17 Feb 2008 4:36 pm

Well said, GG. Your post helped me see Singapore in a new light: opportunity, ambition, and order. That's concise and not untrue. You seem to know what you're doing so what are you waiting for? Get here now! :D

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Postby GordonGekko » Sun, 17 Feb 2008 8:49 pm

Thanks for your kind words, WIMH! By the way, I'm a big fan :kiss: .
With a little luck, I'll be there in the fall or 2009 the latest, as I gotta organize my family's move as well. :wink:
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Postby Superglide » Mon, 18 Feb 2008 5:13 pm

GordonGekko wrote:There is no perfect place, but Singapore has three elements that have become scarce in today's world: opportunity, ambition, and order.


So your choice not only to go and live in Singapore, but to become a Singaporean, is based on ambition, order and opportunity?

Wow, that's deep man... :roll:

(wasn't there a country in Europe a few years back that had the same three in mind? Called "Das dritte Reich" or something?

I guess my advice to go and live there first is indeed the wrong one, it seems you know the country so well already. :-|
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Postby GordonGekko » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 6:21 am

As said, Sg: I'm growing just a little bit tired of your style. Like I told you, there's more to it than that, but you only show how unnecessary it is even to try to explain. :(

You're entitled an opinion, but please don't try to show it down other people's throats. If you gotta problem with my opinion, find arguments instead of attacking my person. :mad:
Besides, Sg: how else could I be a Singaporean than to go and live there ?!? :???:
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Postby Plavt » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 6:46 am

GordonGekko wrote:Besides, Sg: how else could I be a Singaporean than to go and live there ?!? :???:


:lol: :lol: This is one I have heard before GG: you will never be a Singaporean. Although foreigners are to the best of my knowledge tolerated well the fact remains you will always be seen as a foreigner. Alright to go and live there for a few years but the fact is you do not belong there. I am surprised at your view since you claimed to have lived in other countries. :roll:

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Postby GordonGekko » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 7:07 am

OK, Plavt. I think much of this has to do with how much you're willing to adapt and leave a lot of your Western ways behind. This is challenging for many people, but if you're willing to socialize with locals on their level, much is won.

I'm actually not concerned about me being viewed as an outsider, at least to begin with. I have a lifetime to spend there, maybe I eventually get it right :lol: .
Soon enough, there will be Caucasian Asians and Africans who will be approved as such. Why would that be harder than Europe approving Europeans to be of all colors?
I am sorry if I to a lot of you come across as an anomaly or a traitor, but I can't deny my wish.
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Postby Plavt » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 7:37 am

GordonGekko wrote:OK, Plavt. I think much of this has to do with how much you're willing to adapt and leave a lot of your Western ways behind. This is challenging for many people, but if you're willing to socialize with locals on their level, much is won.



I think you are in for a very rude shock, in the three years I have been posting on these forums one thing that is only too noticeable is; expats have great difficulty in mixing with locals. A statement by a fellow moderator and something I have to a degree experienced myself is; 'Singaporeans blot you out.' For comparison I have seen more than one Englishman or woman go and live in Japan and try to be Japanese by simply doing everything a Japanese does. About all that happens is they end up being very lonely and viewed as simply weird by both locals and their own.

I don't therefore see how you are going to 'adapt' and socialize since from what I can gather from those living there, locals aren't willing to mix with foreigners. Sorry mate I think your ideology is seriously flawed. :(

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Postby GordonGekko » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 8:07 am

My experience is different from yours, mate. I've been living in Asia before, and I've not encountered what you describe. Maybe because I've never labeled myself expat, and never will. 8-)
Flawed? Well, say/think what you will. I'm off the subject. 8-)
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:55 am

GG,

A move like yours will always be viewed with scepticism by some. Best to trust your gut since it's your life and no one else knows your circumstances nor has to deal with the consequences. Just you. This is my very Singaporean mentality of course: the votes of stakeholders matter a lot more than comments of onlookers. And you are the only stakeholder in your future here.

Anyway you will probably have a few years to decide if you want to accept citizenship here or merely remain a PR which will also allow you to live here as long as you want.

If you do decide to become Singaporean, I hope this clarifies some of the posts above. Yes, many expats do not fit in but that's because they have a "my way is best and the locals are neanderthals" mentality and walk around with their huge expat noses in the air. How do expect us to embrace these types of foreigners? We tolerate them because they're good for the economy.

You don't sound like that sort, but belong to the group of foreigners who do not consider themselves 'expat' but just another regular person living here. And Singapore is fast becoming cosmopolitan and does not have as strong a culture as say Japan where it's really hard for outsiders to break into. There are foreigners everywhere now, in the suburbs, hawker centres, MRT, buses... The change just over the past year is astounding. You will not feel as out of place as if you'd moved here 5 years ago.

Plus, any fan of mine is a friend of Singapore... or was that any fan of Singapore is a friend of mine... :lol:

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Postby road.not.taken » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 4:32 pm

Gordon,

Your enthusiasm for Singapore is charming, and your manner of presenting your opinions is measured and well-written. Having said that, the whole idea of picking up and moving to a foreign country -- any foreign country with the idea of becoming a citizen right away, sounds capricious and a bit gullible, truth be told. The fact that you posted under the 'A Caucasian Singaporean?' thread sounds to me like a wind-up or the questions of a profoundly naive individual. Sounds like your cart is 10 furlongs in front of your horse. How did this subject get moved to this thread anyway?

There are many reasons why people don't find Singapore to be a place to permanently drop anchor, but that may have nothing to do with a superiority complex as stated below:

Wind In My Hair wrote: Yes, many expats do not fit in but that's because they have a "my way is best and the locals are neanderthals" mentality and walk around with their huge expat noses in the air.


That's a spiteful assumption. People don't 'fit in' for many reasons. Most they could never dream of. And even if they do fit in like a glove, plans change. They fall in love, out of love, circumstances change, medical problems arise, babies are born. So renounce your current citizenship or not, it's entirely up to you of course. Sounds dangerously short-sighted to me.

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Postby Superglide » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 8:15 pm

Gekko,

I can understand you don't like to hear my words, as they may sound confronting and blunt is my middlename I guess.

But like road.not.taken has put it, you sound like either a wind up or completely naieve. You have never lived in Singapore (Asia is close, but not Singapore), you do not even know whether you can become Singaporean or other ins and outs, yet you know you want to be a Singaporean for the rest of your life.

Yes, Singapore is well organised (some may call it rigid to the bone), yes it is safe and ambituous (some say it's an airbubble ready to burst with its dependance on a ferris wheel and a casino) and there are many opportunities.

But hey, it's your life, your choice.

Go for it, be Singaporean, be merry.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 8:51 pm

GG,

I wouldn't worry too much about a few naysayers on here. I've been here probably longer than anybody on this board except for the Singaporean like WIMH and some others. We have had two children here, both are now young adults. While I am only a PR it is only because of a few things. One is the fact that I'm not a cityslicker. I'm an ole farmboy and I intend to die on my farm. While my own country has it's far share of warts and problem (US) I would not give up my citizenship. However, it it weren't for the space constraints here in Singapore and the religion problems in the neighbouring countries, I could have seen me giving up mine in order to stay in Asia.

There are quite a few "Caucasian" Singaporean now and more are added each year. A number are from Scandinavian countries as well. Most who have made the jump are well educated senior level personnel or were and have struck out on their own here. They have bought into the Country and want to grow with the country as well. The biggest naysayers are those who were here and left for whatever reasons, usually due to assimilation problems. Not all have problems with assimilation as you and I are both well aware of. Maybe the arrogant caucasian was a bit over the top but sadly I am inclined to agree with WIMH for the most part because I have heard the comment more times than I care to admit to. The average Singaporean, while not racist toward caucasians (just the opposite actually) do not respect the majority of them because of their attitudes.

As you have pointed out earlier, having already lived in Asia before it's not like you don't already have a taste of Asian life and lifestyles.

As I tell my kids all the time...."You make you own bed in this life and you have to sleep in it". If you make it lumpy & bumpy, it will always be uncomfortable. If you make it carefully life will be an adventure and enjoyable for the most part.

My verdict? Go for it.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 19 Feb 2008 9:25 pm

road.not.taken wrote:
Wind In My Hair wrote: Yes, many expats do not fit in but that's because they have a "my way is best and the locals are neanderthals" mentality and walk around with their huge expat noses in the air.


That's a spiteful assumption. People don't 'fit in' for many reasons. Most they could never dream of. And even if they do fit in like a glove, plans change. They fall in love, out of love, circumstances change, medical problems arise, babies are born.

Not an assumption, but an echo you hear all over the island if your ears are open. And not spiteful, but meant to serve as a clue as to how to fit in here. I agree with you that many foreigners don't stay for many reasons, but that doesn't mean they didn't "fit in" by GG's definition which I think roughly translates into "accepted by locals as friend".

Many also does not mean all. I have met humble, friendly, decent expats who are wonderful on many counts, if that makes you feel better. I was merely refuting the earlier point that foreigners don't fit in by virtue of being foreign, period. As SMS pointed out, it's the attitude that matters.


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