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Europe and the constitution

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jpatokal
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Postby jpatokal » Mon, 04 Feb 2008 2:43 pm

GordonGekko wrote:All I can say is that the EU is the final nail in the coffin of Europe. EU and its members cannot win the globalization game AND keep on upholding the state-provided life most its citizens lead today. :oops:

That's right, which is why the EU is Europe's only chance at scrapping "the state-provided life". Enlarging to include east Europe and instantly gaining a young, hungry, competitive workforce and giving the sclerotic internal economies of the west some real competition was the best thing they've done in a long time.
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Postby Plavt » Mon, 04 Feb 2008 3:24 pm

jpatokal wrote:. Enlarging to include east Europe and instantly gaining a young, hungry, competitive workforce and giving the sclerotic internal economies of the west some real competition was the best thing they've done in a long time.


A good many here would disagree, myself included but then it is easy to make such remarks when you don't live here.

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Postby Superglide » Mon, 04 Feb 2008 4:53 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
GordonGekko wrote:All I can say is that the EU is the final nail in the coffin of Europe. EU and its members cannot win the globalization game AND keep on upholding the state-provided life most its citizens lead today. :oops:
The future is in Asia. :D

Seems the US is also in deep financial trouble, with national debt that they cannot pay off, lenders becoming more cautious about lending more, and not enough to bankroll the baby-boomers soon to retire. It's not going to be pretty.

Asia's an ok place to be right now. :)


Let's see who suffers more from the US credit crisis, Asia or Europe.

I bet Asia will burst, not Europe.
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Postby jpatokal » Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:10 am

Plavt wrote:
jpatokal wrote:. Enlarging to include east Europe and instantly gaining a young, hungry, competitive workforce and giving the sclerotic internal economies of the west some real competition was the best thing they've done in a long time.


A good many here would disagree, myself included but then it is easy to make such remarks when you don't live here.

No pain, no gain. Naturally it's regrettable for UK plumbers when those famous Polish plumbers come and steal their lunch... but Poland (also a part of the EU now, remember) needs that economic growth more than the UK does, and the plumbers' customers in the UK are also better off.
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Postby Plavt » Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:29 am

jpatokal wrote: Naturally it's regrettable for UK plumbers when those famous Polish plumbers come and steal their lunch... but Poland (also a part of the EU now, remember) needs that economic growth more than the UK does, and the plumbers' customers in the UK are also better off.


There is some validity in what you say however what you overlook is many English now find it difficult to find viable paying jobs. In short what has happened is; a not inconsiderable percentage of jobs has been outsourced to India, South Africa and The Philippines and much of the remaining jobs that would have been done by English nationals has now been taken by foreigners. The problem lies with the fact that the government is doing little or nothing to control the influx of foreigners. :( I am well aware of the fact that Poland is in the EU.

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Postby jpatokal » Tue, 05 Feb 2008 1:40 pm

Plavt wrote:There is some validity in what you say however what you overlook is many English now find it difficult to find viable paying jobs. In short what has happened is; a not inconsiderable percentage of jobs has been outsourced to India, South Africa and The Philippines and much of the remaining jobs that would have been done by English nationals has now been taken by foreigners. The problem lies with the fact that the government is doing little or nothing to control the influx of foreigners. :( I am well aware of the fact that Poland is in the EU.


They're not foreigners, they're Europeans. How often do you hear people from New York complaining that people from New Jersey have stolen their jobs? You don't, because they all consider themselves Americans... (and they vent at illegal immigrants from Mexico instead, but that's another story.)
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Postby Plavt » Tue, 05 Feb 2008 3:49 pm

jpatokal wrote:They're not foreigners, they're Europeans.


That may be your intepretation but the they like all other Europeans still have their own nationalility and their own passports and are foreign to the UK. Try foisting your philosophy on a group of ordinary British workers in a pub on a Friday night, you would be most unpopular!

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Postby cutiebutie » Wed, 06 Feb 2008 9:39 am

jpatlokal, you really do say some nonsensical things. How on earth do you believe that the difference between New Jersey and New York is the same as the UK and Poland or Sweden and Portugal.
The only uniting principle between the discussion above is the recently established EU which includes Poland. The US is one country with people of the same nationality and language.

Stating the ridiculous to cover up the lack of reason.
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Postby Jeppo » Wed, 06 Feb 2008 9:52 am

cutiebutie wrote:The only uniting principle between the discussion above is the recently established EU which includes Poland. The US is one country with people of the same nationality and language.


According to one of the contestants on "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" Europe IS a country, and so is North America and Asia and... :lol: :P

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Postby Plavt » Wed, 06 Feb 2008 2:22 pm

Jeppo wrote: Europe IS a country, and so is North America and Asia and... :lol: :P


Europe is not a country: it has member states and is therefore a conglomeration of countries.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 06 Feb 2008 4:48 pm

Plavt, I believe you need to reread Jeppo's post. He didn't say it, he is quoting what was given as an answer on a quiz show in the US called "Are you smarter than a 5th grader".

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Postby Plavt » Wed, 06 Feb 2008 5:13 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Plavt, I believe you need to reread Jeppo's post. He didn't say it, he is quoting what was given as an answer on a quiz show in the US called "Are you smarter than a 5th grader".



Your right! Sorry Jeppo. :oops:

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Postby jpatokal » Wed, 06 Feb 2008 8:49 pm

cutiebutie wrote:jpatlokal, you really do say some nonsensical things. How on earth do you believe that the difference between New Jersey and New York is the same as the UK and Poland or Sweden and Portugal.

And just where did I say that? Quite the opposite -- I was contrasting the attitudes of the average European with that of the average American.

But there's been a seismic shift in attitudes in Europe in the last 50 years (can you imagine France and Germany using the same currency in 1958?), and there will be another in the next 50 years. Like it or not, it's a matter of time until the Brit and the Pole do consider themselves Europeans first :cool:
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Postby GordonGekko » Wed, 13 Feb 2008 5:54 am

Jpatokal: chances are that this kind of movement goes much faster in Eastern Europe, where Communism has left the people longing for something else. For them, EU seems to be the way out.
The rest of Europe is hardly united, as the British actually would like EU to go back and just be the old EC, the Irish are Euro-enthusiasts mostly because of the money pouring in :wink: , and Scandinavia is deeply divided on the issue.
France, Germany, Benelux, Spain, Portugal, and Italy are like old pals, and for them EU has "always" been there - for them, letting go of some national rights is OK, provided that your national budget will get balanced in the process :???: .
As said, the end of EU is nigh. I will not stick around to see it happen. 8-)
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Postby Superglide » Thu, 14 Feb 2008 4:55 pm

As said Gekko,

go to your beloved Singapore and live there for at least 5 years and then do your analysis.

Europe falling apart is of course nonsense.

When asking an Amsterdam person about his city compared to Rotterdam, he or she will of course favour Amsterdam (or move to Rotterdam).

When asking a person fomr a certain neighbourhood about his or her preferences in the city of Amsterdam, he or she will favour the own neighbourhood.

When asking Europeans whether or not they feel European, I bet the vast majority does so. Nevertheless, the idea of being European still has to settle down and as people are: One will allways find a reason for complaining, when needing reasons.

But let me ask you:

What exactly makes you say Singapore is your heaven?
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