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Another National Service Question

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 04 Apr 2008 3:45 pm

How old were they when you asked for deferment?

If they were older than 13 then you will not be granted a deferment. You should have done that prior to their reaching 13 years of age. It may be 11 depending how long ago that they turned 11.

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Postby 888max » Wed, 09 Apr 2008 7:57 pm

Glofam wrote:What is the current status of this situation. I have a similar situation. Pls help

I have 3 sons and have left Siunpore before they reached 7 yrs old and currently in the US. I have requested for a deferment for NS and they have rejected it today. What can I do?



Whom did you contact for deferment request ?

Did you ask them over the phone or through write in letter ??

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Postby sieweng » Thu, 29 May 2008 7:13 pm

My sons are 17 and 15. Both left at 11 and 9 years old respectively. Many think that as long as they have left before 11 years old and has never ' enjoy the socioeconomic' stuff.. they are able to get deferment till 21 years old when they can return to singapore to denounce. Even though we did not get the IC but we did go back to renew their passports every 2 years (otherwise, need to furnish 75K) until they were 15 years old and 13 years old. I guess applying for singapore passport is equal to getting an IC. and enjoying their 'socioeconomic' goodies.

We shouldn't have gone back and just let it expires. We got our australian citizenship only when they were 15 and 13. One of our friend's son who left singapore at the same as my older one, never, went back to renew despite sngapore passport expires after 2 years until they got their citizenship at the same time like us, got his deferment approved.

If u are asking for deferment for yr sons until they finish their college and if one of the parents had denounce your singapore citizenship, you will need to post a bond of 75K. until he 18 years old or 19 depending whatever schooling he is doing currently. Not allowed to go to uni before serving NS. The worst thing is, most uni will not allow them to defer for more than a year here.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 29 May 2008 9:03 pm

sieweng,

If you have researched this forum you will note that these facts have been pointed out numerous times over the past couple of year by myself and other here. As I have always said, it is the parents lack of due diligence that puts the young men at risk. All the information is out there but if the parents fail to take heed, or have a "heck care" attitude then you hoist long term damage onto your children that will be costly for them sooner or later.

I am sad that it has happened to you and your family but I am also happy that you have taken the time to post your trials & tribulations here on the forum for other to read and hopefully learn before making the same mistakes in their haste to pull a fast one on the government.

SMS

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Postby byung_hun » Sat, 31 May 2008 8:05 pm

Hey! :) Does anybody know what may happen to a subject that returns to Singapore after 10 years without serving NS?
I was born 1988 and I have left Singapore in 1998, since this year I have not been back.. Will I be arrested when I arrive at Changi? I live in France now and I have obtained a French citizenship. I will be 21 next year. Is a renunciation of Singapore citizenship recommended? Thank you for your posts! :)

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 31 May 2008 9:30 pm

byung_hun wrote:Hey! :) Does anybody know what may happen to a subject that returns to Singapore after 10 years without serving NS?
I was born 1988 and I have left Singapore in 1998, since this year I have not been back.. Will I be arrested when I arrive at Changi? I live in France now and I have obtained a French citizenship. I will be 21 next year. Is a renunciation of Singapore citizenship recommended? Thank you for your posts! :)


Either you are dense, or just being funny.

http://www.singaporeexpats.com/forum/ftopic46891.html

The name look familiar? Interesting because you don't seem to know WHEN you left Singapore.

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Postby sieweng » Tue, 03 Jun 2008 7:13 am

Its a decision that both parents and the 17 year had to made. Its not really the 'heckcare' attitude. The only reasons for returning to serve NS would be to be able to step in and out of their birth country as they are not allowed to seek employment insingapore in future.

When they had served 2 years of NS, and at 21years old, they will receive a letter from Singapore Gov to make a choice and if decide to give up singapore citizenship, they will receive about 20 pages of conditions with one saying not able to work in singapore even uder work permit.

Having been living outside singapore, our perspectives may differ quite abit.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 03 Jun 2008 9:23 am

sieweng wrote:Its a decision that both parents and the 17 year had to made. Its not really the 'heckcare' attitude. The only reasons for returning to serve NS would be to be able to step in and out of their birth country as they are not allowed to seek employment insingapore in future.

When they had served 2 years of NS, and at 21years old, they will receive a letter from Singapore Gov to make a choice and if decide to give up singapore citizenship, they will receive about 20 pages of conditions with one saying not able to work in singapore even uder work permit.

Having been living outside singapore, our perspectives may differ quite abit.


I beg your pardon?

It was you who said

sieweng wrote:Even though we did not get the IC but we did go back to renew their passports every 2 years (otherwise, need to furnish 75K) until they were 15 years old and 13 years old.


What you wrote sounds like you were trying to pull a fast one on the government so you didn't need to pay the bond to me. How does it read to you?

I'm not putting you down. I'm just stating facts. Your kids enjoyed socio-economic benefits of having Singapore Citizenship only because you didn't want to pay the bond. It was your choice with they were 9 & 11. How could anyone not realize a passport is the same as an IC (actually even more valuable as it allows not just local identity but international identity as well. Your sons had nothing to do with it. And yes, you have created a situation now, depending on your/your sons' choices with regard to returning to do their NS which could further hamper their choices in the future. Had you not renewed their passports after the age of 11 and timely notified Mindef of your intentions time your son's would not be in this dilemma now. :-|

Anyway, again, I thank you for posting here as this hopefully will go a long way to verifying what I have been preaching here for the past 3 years.

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Postby Petales Soufflez! » Mon, 09 Jun 2008 7:13 pm

Hi everybody!

Need some help understanding this issue, please.

If I've understood correctly, if a Singaporean boy
- was born outside Singapore

- never had a Singapore IC or passport

- never enjoyed subsidised medical care in a Singapore hospital (private doctors don't count, right?)

- but made short visits to the country to visit family

he could be considered as never having enjoyed benefits as a Singaporean, right?

He's 11 now. Does it mean that if I should before he turns 13 write to Manpower to ask for NS deferment, they would normally approve it? Because he must reach 21 before he can renounce his Singapore citizenship?

And must I still post a bond?

And when he would have renounced his citizenship when he's 21, would it be true that he wouldn't be able to work or live in Singapore even under work permit? It appears really unreasonable and petty if that should be true.

I love my country why is why I've applied for citizenship for my 1st born. Only I didn't know then that we would never return to live in it. The child loves to visit Singapore but he's European. His future is in Europe where he was born and bred. I will return home if I can for my retirement, but he'll remain in Europe. I am so sad that he couldn't keep both citizenships and may even end up not being able to visit Singapore. How can I avoid that? If one can serve NS and keep both citizenships, it may be worth doing it. But to serve NS and then have to renounce it, it would be ridiculous. And to not be able to work in the country after renouncing it - that's a little too much.

I know that we have a siege mentality. It can even be useful. But seriously sometimes I wish we can be a little more relaxed about "divided loyalties". Just because you're only Singaporean doesn't mean you're necessarily loyal. It's not as if it's so easy acquiring other nationalities either. And we have to face the different realities that different Singaporeans may face. Even the conmmunists can now visit Singapore. Would ex-citizens be worth lesser?

Very frustrated...
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 09 Jun 2008 9:52 pm

Petales Soufflez! wrote:Hi everybody!

Need some help understanding this issue, please.

If I've understood correctly, if a Singaporean boy
- was born outside Singapore

- never had a Singapore IC or passport

- never enjoyed subsidised medical care in a Singapore hospital (private doctors don't count, right?)

- but made short visits to the country to visit family

he could be considered as never having enjoyed benefits as a Singaporean, right?

Correct.

He's 11 now. Does it mean that if I should before he turns 13 write to Manpower to ask for NS deferment, they would normally approve it? Because he must reach 21 before he can renounce his Singapore citizenship?

Correct

And must I still post a bond?

That I don't have the answer to. I'll see if I can find it though.

And when he would have renounced his citizenship when he's 21, would it be true that he wouldn't be able to work or live in Singapore even under work permit? It appears really unreasonable and petty if that should be true.

Incorrect. If he has renounced his citizenship using the proper procedures, then there are not any problems with his returning to work here using the same procedures and qualifications as every other foreigner does.

I love my country why is why I've applied for citizenship for my 1st born. Only I didn't know then that we would never return to live in it. The child loves to visit Singapore but he's European. His future is in Europe where he was born and bred. I will return home if I can for my retirement, but he'll remain in Europe. I am so sad that he couldn't keep both citizenships and may even end up not being able to visit Singapore. How can I avoid that? If one can serve NS and keep both citizenships, it may be worth doing it. But to serve NS and then have to renounce it, it would be ridiculous. And to not be able to work in the country after renouncing it - that's a little too much.

See my response above.

I know that we have a siege mentality. It can even be useful. But seriously sometimes I wish we can be a little more relaxed about "divided loyalties". Just because you're only Singaporean doesn't mean you're necessarily loyal. It's not as if it's so easy acquiring other nationalities either. And we have to face the different realities that different Singaporeans may face. Even the conmmunists can now visit Singapore. Would ex-citizens be worth lesser?

Very frustrated...


At the moment I don't know the answer to the bond question.

sms

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Postby Petales Soufflez! » Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:30 pm

SMS, thanks for your help!

A big relief on the point about them being able to return to work etc if normal procedure is followed...
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Postby bruinbear » Fri, 20 Jun 2008 6:23 pm

If the Singaporean boy was born outside Singapore and never had Singaporean IC or passport, then how is this boy Singaporean?

Are you saying this boy has a Singaporean citizenship certificate?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:51 am

If the birth of the Singaporean boy was recorded at the Consulate and a Birth certificate was issued which showed that his parents were Singaporean, then he is a Singaporean, whether or not an NRIC or Passport was issued. It was possible before the introduction of the Biometric passports to travel on a parents passport as a minor child. The birth cert makes him a Singaporean so therefor the parent would have to follow all procedures to make is possible for his to waiver his NS until his 21 birthday when he is allowed by law to renounce if he so desires. If he doesn't renounce then he has to report of military duty immediately.

But in all cases these decisions had to have been made BEFORE the child's 11th birthday (in the case of non-biometric passports - actual date the change to 13 I honestly do not know). You are generally given an NRIC until you are I believe 14 years old anyway but you can get a passport issued within a couple of weeks after birth (both of mine got their 1st ones (5 year passports) when they were 3 months old.

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Postby bruinbear » Sun, 22 Jun 2008 9:54 pm

So why record the birth at the Consulate?

Let me use another example to clarify. Say a Singaporean couple gave birth to a boy in USA. The boy gets a US birth cert and US citizenship.

Say this couple doesn't do ANYTHING else and travels around the world (including back to Singapore) on the boy's US passport.

Does this make the boy a Singaporean?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:32 pm

This seems to be reasonably clear to me.....

Citizenship by descent

A person born outside Singapore on or after 15 May 2004, with at least one parent who is a Singaporean citizen, is a Singaporean citizen by descent. If the parent from whom the child derives citizenship is a Singaporean citizen by descent, the parent must have been resident in Singapore for a total of at least four years before the child's birth or a total of at least one year out of the five years immediately preceding the child's birth.[3]

A person born outside Singapore before 15 May 2004 will be a Singaporean citizen by descent only if his or her father was a Singaporean citizen by birth or by registration at the time of birth.

In all cases, children of Singaporean citizens by registration born overseas will be granted Singaporean citizenship by descent only if they do not acquire citizenship of the country of their birth.


However, the reason for registering the child's birth with the consultant? Because they are supposed to? I mean, at the time, they were not Citizens of the USA, so why would they NOT register the birth?

Having said that, however, it is possible for them to lose it as well according to the following legal link:

http://www.wwlegal.com/module-subjects- ... id-14.html

Of course a different view may be held by the government if the child concerned is a male but I cannot find any direct confirmation of that.

Edited for typos!
Last edited by sundaymorningstaple on Mon, 23 Jun 2008 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.


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