Rental Increases?!!?! :(

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Post by k1w1 » Wed, 20 Jun 2007 2:08 pm

Right, so you ARE an agent.

So you don't think landlords should be called greedy, (even if they steal deposits and are stupid enough to leave their properties empty because they're convinced they can get better rental rates) ... but I can be called a "whiny prat" for saying I dislike the extortion that's currently going on in the rental market? Oh yeah, that's logical. :roll:

Have fun for the next year or two... :lol:

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Post by huggybear » Wed, 20 Jun 2007 2:55 pm

No i'm a tenant just like you.

well i'm probably the person you should be mad at as I paid up to live in District 9.

"stealing" of the security deposit is one issue. The empty apartment to get a higher rent is the right of the landlord (as dumb as it may be). But from what rufustfirefly posted earlier, people are renting these apartment at these "absurb" prices.

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Post by ksl » Wed, 20 Jun 2007 7:44 pm

huggybear wrote:
k1w1 wrote:I'm not mad at you or the wrong people. I just get peeved at the idea of someone taking (literally) thousands of dollars off me. Because they can, not because I damaged anything. And it gets under my skin what's going on right now in the rental market. Rents have nearly doubled - not the 10% increase I keep reading about. I don't know anyone whose rent went up 10%. If that were the case, not many would complain.
That's fine if you want to call landlords greedy. By that same metric, you are a whiny prat.

Why are you mad at "greedy landlords?" Why aren't you mad at the people who are actually paying the 50% - 100% increases? If renters in Singapore colluded with you to keep rents down (to help the whiny prats beat the greedy landlords) then we wouldn't have this problem.
Huggy, it appears, that you maybe on a significant income that it doesn't bother you, I guess you feel privileged! Maybe your landlord is reading this and thinking here we have a sucker, I'll double his rent!

Such a small Country is Singapore that I can take the MRT around the whole Island in around 1 hour, yet you still think that market forces are responsible for rent rises, it wouldn't cross your mind that landlords & agents collude to push up the rents, therefore locking the expatriates into the corner, there is little place for expatriates to hide, or get any real fair treatment.

That is why there are rent tribunals, its not a matter of high rent, if the landlord persists not to reduce the rent, that is their privilege also, they would go onto a list of non cooperation, it is a matter that families, with children, require a stable home, and the habit of turfing tenants out of their rental properties after 1 or 2 year contacts is not on, if they do not pay extortionate rent increases. I guess it's easy for you to call others whiny prats, until it happens to you!

We are discussing fairness to all parties, a win win situation, and to be honest I do believe in set standards, when it comes to property, the property must be functional, with a certain amount of fixed amenities, if it is rented furnished.

I'm afraid in all fairness its not the tenants, especially expatriats that should collude, not to pay the high rents, in a metropolis, they should have fair treatment of which they don't get, in a supposedly civil society, that brags of 94% home ownership

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Post by ksl » Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:05 am

ksl wrote:
huggybear wrote:
k1w1 wrote:I'm not mad at you or the wrong people. I just get peeved at the idea of someone taking (literally) thousands of dollars off me. Because they can, not because I damaged anything. And it gets under my skin what's going on right now in the rental market. Rents have nearly doubled - not the 10% increase I keep reading about. I don't know anyone whose rent went up 10%. If that were the case, not many would complain.
That's fine if you want to call landlords greedy. By that same metric, you are a whiny prat.

Why are you mad at "greedy landlords?" Why aren't you mad at the people who are actually paying the 50% - 100% increases? If renters in Singapore colluded with you to keep rents down (to help the whiny prats beat the greedy landlords) then we wouldn't have this problem.
Huggy, it appears, that you maybe on a significant income that it doesn't bother you, I guess you feel privileged! Maybe your landlord is reading this and thinking here we have a sucker, I'll double his rent!

Such a small Country is Singapore that I can take the MRT around the whole Island in around 1 hour, yet you still think that market forces are responsible for rent rises, it wouldn't cross your mind that landlords & agents collude to push up the rents, therefore locking the expatriates into the corner, there is little place for expatriates to hide, or get any real fair treatment.

That is why there are rent tribunals, its not a matter of high rent, if the landlord persists not to reduce the rent, that is their privilege also, they would go onto a list of non cooperation, it is a matter that families, with children, require a stable home, and the habit of turfing tenants out of their rental properties after 1 or 2 year contracts is not on, if they do not pay extortionate rent increases. I guess it's easy for you to call others whiny prats, until it happens to you!

We are discussing fairness to all parties, a win win situation, and to be honest I do believe in set standards, when it comes to property, the property must be functional, with a certain amount of fixed amenities, if it is rented furnished.

I'm afraid in all fairness its not the tenants, especially expatriats that should collude, not to pay the high rents, in a metropolis, they should have fair treatment of which they don't get, in a supposedly civil society, that brags of 94% home ownership


However rental arbitration, is a good thing, that not only considers market trends in different areas, but ensures that fire & safety conditions are in order, to give free speculation rights to agents, is something else, and collusion for buying and selling, due to commission structures, is wide open for abuse, and that is what is going on. I got that from the horses mouth that collusion of rent fixing between agents pushes the market up! when they get a whiff of property price rises.

One of the richest property families in Singapore leaked me that info. The relative of course doesn't wish to be hung out and dried, for what he's told me about his own families methods of business, along with the rest of the industry.

Market supply & demand, I guess there are a few people around here that are a little naive to what goes on in Singapore :P Singapore is clean is it! :lol:
First of all you have to understand how a government is able to hold onto power for 50 years, then you will see the cracks in the wood work, but business as usual! Although it is amazing whats been accomplished in 50 years!

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Post by huggybear » Thu, 21 Jun 2007 5:30 pm

there are a lot of moving factors.

all i'm trying to say is that there are people out there that are renting these properties at the "exorbinate" rates. I put "exorbinant" in quotations because can it really be exorbitant if many people are deciding to pay the increase? or does it mean that you are underpaid and really need to work with SMS to find a new job? at my work site a lot of locals have oreddi moved on to higher paying work.

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Post by ksl » Thu, 21 Jun 2007 6:38 pm

huggybear wrote:there are a lot of moving factors.

all i'm trying to say is that there are people out there that are renting these properties at the "exorbinate" rates. I put "exorbinant" in quotations because can it really be exorbitant if many people are deciding to pay the increase? or does it mean that you are underpaid and really need to work with SMS to find a new job? at my work site a lot of locals have oreddi moved on to higher paying work.
Well I have personally seen expats discuss, their rental packages on here, some over 5000$ a month and more, who is it that is paying in the long run, the companies right! Those that are priced out of their comfort zone, will have second thoughts of staying around.

Underpaid is nothing to do withit, although, that is obvious you find that difficult to comprehend, with your I'm all right jack attitude! Working for a bank, actually does reflect your direction and mentality, not that i mean it as an insult, more of an observation, that consumers, are just there, to be robbed! Sadly banks that collude with governments pee in the same pot, the people vote people into governments and positions of authority, only to be abused by them, and hey what can you do, not alot! One cannot satisfy everyone Tony Blair & Bush say, so why satisfy ourselves, their must be many that agree with our ways, otherwise we wouldn't be here right.

Easy pickings if your in the right place, at the right time, but hey, the world is made up of compassionate people as well, or didn't you notice! Btw, if you think you are well paid, that must be your ego screaming for attention!

Sensitivity for what goes on in the world for less fortunate people is not a bad, thing!

Although like you are well aware of, the scammers from Nigeria, that can afford to live in the most expensive penthouses around, are just smirking at your upgrade, don't you think! :cool: lets face it the money comes from someplace, and those that can grab the most, are what? The most happy, the most rich, the most sad, or they live in a time warp and are insensitive to the rest of the world :shock:

However your opinion is noted and accepted with no bias feelings, actually a kind of indifference and sadness, maybe more appropriate, when there is enough wealth to go round for all.

With regards to "exorbinant rent" yes if you compare local life, the rich & wealthy that probably are a majority from outside of Singapore, will have that effect on property prices, don't you think!

So the government does need to step in. Like someone i know from the UK, who is trying desperately to get PR, but doesn't have the 20 million sing$ that it takes, but is prepared to pay out 5 million$ if 50% can be invested in property and the other 50% in development.

Yes he did work for a bank! :P So hey good luck with your profession

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Post by huggybear » Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:43 am

ksl wrote:Well I have personally seen expats discuss, their rental packages on here, some over 5000$ a month and more, who is it that is paying in the long run, the companies right! Those that are priced out of their comfort zone, will have second thoughts of staying around.

Agreed. Ultimately we are talking about inflation here. There is currently a boom in Singapore with Companies investing heavily in Singapore (whether it's real estate or shifting jobs here and hiring people as the gov't grows population to 6 million). The boom is due to the world's 3rd lowest interest rate. Borrowing is cheap so developers invest heavily here.

Underpaid is nothing to do withit, although, that is obvious you find that difficult to comprehend, with your I'm all right jack attitude! Working for a bank, actually does reflect your direction and mentality, not that i mean it as an insult, more of an observation, that consumers, are just there, to be robbed! Sadly banks that collude with governments pee in the same pot, the people vote people into governments and positions of authority, only to be abused by them, and hey what can you do, not alot! One cannot satisfy everyone Tony Blair & Bush say, so why satisfy ourselves, their must be many that agree with our ways, otherwise we wouldn't be here right.

I think underpaid is part of the equation. if K1w1 received a 50% increase and her rent went up 50% then all things being equal she shouldn't have anything to complain about. My mentality is less to do with working for a bank. It's more to do that i'm an american ... and a free market capitalist. More of a Libertarian ... i hate the gov't and think they are completely useless and inefficient. So i concur with your comments about bush. Banks don't collude with the gov't. They are regulated by them. Banks only care about their own interests and fight for their interests just like everyone else in the world. For the record, I am underpaid too. If i couldn't afford the rent increase i would be upset too, but it's not like there are other options such as moving in to an HDB.

Easy pickings if your in the right place, at the right time, but hey, the world is made up of compassionate people as well, or didn't you notice! Btw, if you think you are well paid, that must be your ego screaming for attention!

The world is made up of selfish people who only care about their own interests and their own pocketbooks / happiness. That is why the world ignores tradegies in: Sudan, Rwanda, Cambodia, North Korea, Croatia, Panama, Nicuarga, Argentina, Chile. It is why the UN is f-ing useless and doesn't do anything to stop human rights abuses in: China, Guatanamo, Albania, Libya, etc. It is why France continues to do business in Iran, it is why Russia supports China / N. Korea and why people just shut up and take it in the rear. "Hey i'm ok, i have a roof over my head and food is on the table." It is why the French want to protect their socalist interests even tho unemployment is around 12% and young people can't find jobs, why men in Japan / Singapore / China find it difficult to marry "eligible" women because women finally realize they have rights etc etc etc. It is why people still travel to Myanmar / Nigeria / Cuba instead of boycotting anything to do with these countries for maintaing military dictatorships that suppress any opposing view with brutality. It is why people bitch and moan about human rights abuses in China but then they still go to their local electronics to buy their 20 quid DVD player made in China. The world doesn't conduct wars anymore by military means. Wars are conducted economically.

Sensitivity for what goes on in the world for less fortunate people is not a bad, thing!

Although like you are well aware of, the scammers from Nigeria, that can afford to live in the most expensive penthouses around, are just smirking at your upgrade, don't you think! :cool: lets face it the money comes from someplace, and those that can grab the most, are what? The most happy, the most rich, the most sad, or they live in a time warp and are insensitive to the rest of the world :shock:

However your opinion is noted and accepted with no bias feelings, actually a kind of indifference and sadness, maybe more appropriate, when there is enough wealth to go round for all.

With regards to "exorbinant rent" yes if you compare local life, the rich & wealthy that probably are a majority from outside of Singapore, will have that effect on property prices, don't you think!

So the government does need to step in. Like someone i know from the UK, who is trying desperately to get PR, but doesn't have the 20 million sing$ that it takes, but is prepared to pay out 5 million$ if 50% can be invested in property and the other 50% in development.

Yes he did work for a bank! :P So hey good luck with your profession

I am underpaid. and am no where near even having 5 million SGD. I don't have a lot of bargaining power but i have moved here to enhance my CV and learn new skills that i hope i can lever into higher pay and more senior positions.
again, there are a lot of moving parts. Ultimately the problem is this. Everyone is moving to Asia as everyone is saying "the next century is going to be all about Asian growth story." Everyone moving to Asia means demand goes up. As demand goes up, prices go up. It's simple Econ 101. How much prices go up depends on the supply. But seriously. everyone wants to live in a condo with facilities. Thus these properties soar while HDB prices remain flat. that is exactly what is happening now. Properties in areas where expats want to live, Holland V, Orchard are bid through the roof (Don't you think locals want to live there too?) while other areas in the east coast / west side still offer value. HDB prices are rising slowly ... after all don't you think with an inflation rate of around 3-4% that 5% price appreciation even for an HDB is appriprate? so with a 2 year lease...after your lease is up, a 10% increase should be expected at a minimum.

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Post by German_Expat » Fri, 22 Jun 2007 4:40 pm

I have to agree to some extend that it is not only the Landlords and agents pushing up the prices but also the tennants for agreeing to pay those prices.
However, tennants are in a less enviable position. And yes, its a big upheaval having to move a family every two years because the rent is going up to the expend that it becomes too much to pay. I was not willing to pay the 100% increase so I moved and ended up with a place that is 40% larger and costs me 20% more than the previous one. But.... I now travel 1 1/2 hour to work instead of 30 mins before.

An awful lot of rental contracts are up for renewal this year, lets see if in two years tennants are still willing to put up with the increase. I certainly am not.

I know people who are already sharing apartments to keep the cost down and I know people who are leaving because of the housing costs and I know people who are not coming for that same reason. On top of that there is GST increase, NETS are talking about increasing their fees, schooling is going up, medical costs are going up, transportation costs are up..... normally people wouldnt complain too much but when the single highest expense is increasing by up to 100% then the small increases are also noticeable. So far this past year there has been nothing but news about increases.

And there are less and less companies willing to pay housing allowances now.

Tennants get together..... that would be a very good idea. Gather information and arrange to meet the government.... after all, Singapore needs to stay competitive or it will badly loose out. A small hickup here can have bad consequences compared to a larger country.

HDB apartment rents have also recently started to go up by something like 50 to 100%.... no so flat huh?

My guess is that this ownt go on for much longer. Either the government steps in and regulates the market or landlords and agents impose a charter on themselves. But as it is right now it cant go on for much longer.

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Post by ksl » Fri, 22 Jun 2007 7:24 pm

Nice reply huggybear, most admirable! 10% increase in rent after a two year contract, would also be acceptable too! I'm not saying kill off the capitlist, they will always be around, but government still need to have a form of arbitration to minimise pure speculative rental increases, which to a point damages also the tourist market to such an extent, that nobody is prepared to come here.

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Post by mayaray » Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:45 am

I am affected by this rent hike myself. My landlord increased the rent by 40%, which is still "OK" as my rental rather low previously. But due to personal issues I have to look for a new place at the worst time ever.

I looked at some rooms last week. Saw a condo room advertised as 'studio' with multiple facilities and eeek! It turned out to be a 2 bdroom condo which is being '(illegally?) partitioned into 3 sections and the cheapest room with attached bathroom going for 1 K and the small room with adjoining kitchen and bathroom was going fo 2K!! I can't believe how greedy that landlord was. I was quite disgusted.

I am not an 'expat' therefore my salary will be taking quite a big hit.

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Post by LT » Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:01 pm

Hi All,

I read through the last 4 pages of this thread. Apparently most of this thread is against the LL increasing the rental. I'm a landlord and will like to give my personal view on this issue.

I bought the apt for investment purposes, hoping to gain some return from this property. Currently I am staying with my parents, thus the apt I bought was rented out to an expat lady. Initially the rent was at $2300/mth. It was on a 2 yrs contract. One yr into the contract, my surrounding neighbours within the same building are renting out their units at $3500/mth. It's an increase of 52% within a yr. When the rental contract expiring next yr, as an investor's point of view, I will definitely increase the rental to match the market rate. There is no reason for me to renew the rental contract for $2300/mth when apt within the same condo are going at $3500/mth, right? But definitely if the existing tenant decided to continue for another 2 yrs, I will definitely give a bit of discount, to save myself the hassle of looking for a new tenant.

Presume I increase the rent to $3500/mth, and my mortgage loan is $3000/mth, I will be taking a profit of only $500/mth, which isn't a lot.

Cheers...
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Post by ksl » Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:48 am

LT wrote:Hi All,

I read through the last 4 pages of this thread. Apparently most of this thread is against the LL increasing the rental. I'm a landlord and will like to give my personal view on this issue.

I bought the apt for investment purposes, hoping to gain some return from this property. Currently I am staying with my parents, thus the apt I bought was rented out to an expat lady. Initially the rent was at $2300/mth. It was on a 2 yrs contract. One yr into the contract, my surrounding neighbours within the same building are renting out their units at $3500/mth. It's an increase of 52% within a yr. When the rental contract expiring next yr, as an investor's point of view, I will definitely increase the rental to match the market rate. There is no reason for me to renew the rental contract for $2300/mth when apt within the same condo are going at $3500/mth, right? But definitely if the existing tenant decided to continue for another 2 yrs, I will definitely give a bit of discount, to save myself the hassle of looking for a new tenant.

Presume I increase the rent to $3500/mth, and my mortgage loan is $3000/mth, I will be taking a profit of only $500/mth, which isn't a lot.

Cheers...
(PS: I'm here in the forum to make new friends from around the world, not to have any argument... :lol: )
There again if your mortgage loan is only 2000 a month, your profit will be 1500$ right, there are many factors, so its a waste of time trying to justify the rent increases, some are more greedy than others, and lets say the people in your condo purchase theirs later, at a higher price and higher mortgage, maybe, thats why they are trying to get 3500 to cover the costs, right, still it still doen't stop the greedy! Some may only be paying 1500 a month mortage, but what the hell money is money right! It's important to find the right balance, with a little common sense. The older and i mean very old properties, are trying very hard, to get the price of new modern properties too, because of greed, and there is not much room, for bargaining, if one is stuck inbetween!

It most definately needs controlling, to seperate, the sharks from the goldfish, just like any other country! Because there are many decent landlords too! Most council in some countries have a list of recommended landlords, who meet legal fire and safety standards, with their furniture,,, the sharks of course are not on the list, it is up to landlords if they choose to be respectable or not! Tenants need protection for the whole families against sharks!

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Post by riverjazz » Tue, 03 Jul 2007 6:23 am

hi, mayaray

Which condo is the one u mentioned? Is it found in the east?

:)

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Post by LT » Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:03 am

ksl wrote: There again if your mortgage loan is only 2000 a month, your profit will be 1500$ right, there are many factors, so its a waste of time trying to justify the rent increases, some are more greedy than others, and lets say the people in your condo purchase theirs later, at a higher price and higher mortgage, maybe, thats why they are trying to get 3500 to cover the costs, right, still it still doen't stop the greedy! Some may only be paying 1500 a month mortage, but what the hell money is money right! It's important to find the right balance, with a little common sense. The older and i mean very old properties, are trying very hard, to get the price of new modern properties too, because of greed, and there is not much room, for bargaining, if one is stuck inbetween!

It most definately needs controlling, to seperate, the sharks from the goldfish, just like any other country! Because there are many decent landlords too! Most council in some countries have a list of recommended landlords, who meet legal fire and safety standards, with their furniture,,, the sharks of course are not on the list, it is up to landlords if they choose to be respectable or not! Tenants need protection for the whole families against sharks!
Hi ksl,

Majority of the investors who buy properties are in for one thing only, to make some profit. It's just like doing a business. Charity organisations aside, nobody will wanna do a business that is not making money, will you? The relationship between a LL and a tenant is the same as a business entity and a customer. The LL offers a price for the rental, and if the tenant agrees to it, he will take up the offer. If he doesn't, he can move on to another "shopping centre" to look for a similar products, isn't it?

Cheers....
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Post by ScoobyDoes » Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:52 pm

A Landlord's profit should be governed by the difference in price between his purchase and his sale.

Rent should be enough to cover the cost of the mortgage and any maintenance expense. Profits should not be fleeced from a tenant when the landlord still sits on the asset of the unit itself.

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