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God Existance: Yes or No

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2die4
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Postby 2die4 » Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:55 pm

kids can give you very simple yet very true answers to life's most troubling questions... (well, not all but at least some)

their minds are not as corrupt and polluted as some adults, that's why their innocence exudes beauty and truth...
"Quod me nutruit, me destruit..."

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Postby huggybear » Sun, 11 Mar 2007 8:52 pm

i don't believe in cults.

anyways. there are lots of things in life that make things easier like telling little white lies ... as for this topic? religion ends up causing more trouble. especially when you start killing people who don't subscribe to your exact view / interpretation...

i like learning about religions for the histories and the story telling but don't really practice anything.

there was an interesting article in the ny times of which the link is at the bottom.

here's an interesting excerpt:

Call it God; call it superstition; call it, as Atran does, “belief in hope beyond reason”

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Postby huggybear » Sun, 11 Mar 2007 9:05 pm

i know this is a bit off topic (don't shoot me SMS [-o< )
but...

have you seen Family Guy?
one of the greatest shows ever.

in one episode peter tries to convince everyone he's an hasidic jew.
so he greets everyone by saying "hello fellow hebrews and shebrews!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxKX1taniH8
i was dying of laughter.

another great one is when peter creates his own religion...dedicated to fonzi
"the father, the son, and the holy fonz"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUoolRIBSk

oh my gawd. i was dying.

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Postby Kurozu » Mon, 12 Mar 2007 8:38 am

2die4 wrote:hey ksl, sms... you're missing victor, eh? :wink: looks like we have a new one here?

i heard a story about a little girl, 6 years old...

she was asked if she believes in God, she gave a simple, "yes" as an answer...

and when asked, "why?", she gave a very innocent answer and quite nice if i may say so, "makes my life easier" :wink:

sometimes kids have a lot more to say with such simple words...


Hello 2die4, nice to meet you.

FYI, I am not under the VOID nor am I aVOIDing it. On the contrary, I am trying to have an open discussion such that I can open up my ideas and at the same time listen to others' as well.

Your story is great for people who do not want to dig any deeper into the mystery of the existence of GOD. My son was singing "hallelujah" when he was only 3 years old, and at 7 he still believes in Jesus Christ while he also believe that Stanta had given him present on every Christmas day. I envy his naiveness, and I do not want to spoil it on him. We can all stop here and believe miracle and faith will make everyone fine. Simple

But human beings are not that way. We cannot help it! We just like to question and poke everything around us, because that is who we are. I accepted the GOD as the almighty Creator until tales of "Hell" and propagation of the anti semitism instigated by foolish followers who misinterpret the bible that "just accepting GOD because it makes life easier" does not make everything fine at all.

And how is all these answer the question of the existance of God. Well, if God is almighty, he should have seen the flaws in his own creation already.
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."

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Postby Kurozu » Mon, 12 Mar 2007 9:07 am

huggybear wrote:i know this is a bit off topic (don't shoot me SMS [-o< )
but...

have you seen Family Guy?
one of the greatest shows ever.

in one episode peter tries to convince everyone he's an hasidic jew.
so he greets everyone by saying "hello fellow hebrews and shebrews!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxKX1taniH8
i was dying of laughter.

another great one is when peter creates his own religion...dedicated to fonzi
"the father, the son, and the holy fonz"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUoolRIBSk

oh my gawd. i was dying.


LOL...... that was good.....
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."

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Postby 2die4 » Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:16 pm

Kurozu wrote:
Hello 2die4, nice to meet you.


Thanks, same here...

Kurozu wrote: FYI, I am not under the VOID nor am I aVOIDing it. On the contrary, I am trying to have an open discussion such that I can open up my ideas and at the same time listen to others' as well.


Oh i'm sorry kurozo i didn't intend you to interpret it that way, what i mean is victor was into philosophical stuff , which for me is a positive thing although it could have been communicated in a better way but i think his intentions were good. and you started this interesting and philosophical topic as well wherein i saw the connection between you and victor, hope i made myself clear... :wink:

Kurozu wrote:Your story is great for people who do not want to dig any deeper into the mystery of the existence of GOD. My son was singing "hallelujah" when he was only 3 years old, and at 7 he still believes in Jesus Christ while he also believe that Stanta had given him present on every Christmas day. I envy his naiveness, and I do not want to spoil it on him. We can all stop here and believe miracle and faith will make everyone fine. Simple

But human beings are not that way. We cannot help it! We just like to question and poke everything around us, because that is who we are. I accepted the GOD as the almighty Creator until tales of "Hell" and propagation of the anti semitism instigated by foolish followers who misinterpret the bible that "just accepting GOD because it makes life easier" does not make everything fine at all.

And how is all these answer the question of the existance of God. Well, if God is almighty, he should have seen the flaws in his own creation already.


I believe in God, and I'm proud to say that, I'm not afraid to declare my faith and belief. Other people may challenge and ask proof and/or evidence for this but I do not need to prove anything to these people.

I am entitled to my own beliefs and convictions and so are other people so I respect them for it...

We have our limitations and as much as we would like or want to have answers to all questions, we just can't.

When I was 7 years old I found out that Santa Claus is not real that it was my mum and my grandmother who were giving me gifts underneath the x-mas tree but this didn't stop me from believing that there is a God. Although they lied to me, and it hurt me that made me believe in Santa, I still found good things about it...

In fact up to now I am still thankful that they made me believe that there's Santa. I learned 3 important lessons:
1. To hope - I think that all of us need to learn to hope. or to have it inside us, no matter how desperate things can get, there is always something... something to help us, something to support us, or just to make us hold on...

2. That every deed whether good or bad gets something in return I remember when I was young I would always bear in mind that I should be nice or else Santa would not give me a gift, although it may seem like a childish motivation of doing things right, it kept me from doing bad things which i might regret later on. it kept me from getting into trouble.

3. The value of waiting or being patient I used to wait until way past my bedtime just to get a glimpse of Santa until my dad would have to carry me to my room coz i already fell asleep on the couch. i kept on promising myself that next xmas i would be more patient i would get the energy to wait and wait and wait until Santa comes.

These are just few of the things I learned because I believed in Santa, but when i found out he didn't exist or it's not "Santa" per se with the red suit and white beard, laughing ho-ho-ho who gives me gifts, it didn't matter to me...

The fact that we are thinking beings and intelligent ones in this case is enough proof that God made a good work in his creation, he made us think and use our brains and resources to probe deeper, to analyse, to research, to observe and what have you but above all these he made us feeling creatures as well...

i hope that people who question God would find it in their hearts to believe... actually the little girl's answer is not quite true, it would be easier if people don't believe in God, right we don't have to fear anything or anyone in doing things... but who am I to stop people from believing or not believing?

I stand firm I believe and I respect other's belief... and when the day comes that i'll have a child I would like him or her to believe in God, I won't ask him/her to follow my ways or how i go about with my belief, he can have his/her own religion or do away with it, but I would like him/her to believe that there is God that there is something or someone who/that he can hold on to no matter what...

If a person doesn't believe in someone/something he/she would fall for anything/anyone, and I would want my kid to be that kind of person... :wink:

Kudos to all!
"Quod me nutruit, me destruit..."

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Postby huggybear » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 7:20 am

2die4 wrote:
I am entitled to my own beliefs and convictions and so are other people so I respect them for it...


sure...as long as you don't impose your beliefs on others and try to "save" them or convert them.

2die4 wrote:The fact that we are thinking beings and intelligent ones in this case is enough proof that God made a good work in his creation, he made us think and use our brains and resources to probe deeper, to analyse, to research, to observe and what have you but above all these he made us feeling creatures as well...

i hope that people who question God would find it in their hearts to believe... actually the little girl's answer is not quite true, it would be easier if people don't believe in God, right we don't have to fear anything or anyone in doing things... but who am I to stop people from believing or not believing?


not really. it's much easier to just "believe in god" and explain away everything to "this is how god intended us to be." otherwise we wouldn't be pursuing things such as vaccinations for polio or cures for cancer, as God created us to have have these problems.

Or we wouldn't try to understand earthquakes and weather patterns that cause flooding...as god intended us to have these things.

so because there are people who question the ways of the world (and the universe) we have attained many advances that wouldn't have otherwise have been possible.

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Postby 2die4 » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 9:58 am

huggybear wrote:
sure...as long as you don't impose your beliefs on others and try to "save" them or convert them.


Don't worry huggybear, i don't like people who do such things and i don't try impose my beliefs on others and convert them coz i don't want them doing such things to me as well...

2die4 wrote:The fact that we are thinking beings and intelligent ones in this case is enough proof that God made a good work in his creation, he made us think and use our brains and resources to probe deeper, to analyse, to research, to observe and what have you but above all these he made us feeling creatures as well...

i hope that people who question God would find it in their hearts to believe... actually the little girl's answer is not quite true, it would be easier if people don't believe in God, right? we don't have to fear anything or anyone in doing things... but who am I to stop people from believing or not believing?


huggybear wrote:not really. it's much easier to just "believe in god" and explain away everything to "this is how god intended us to be." otherwise we wouldn't be pursuing things such as vaccinations for polio or cures for cancer, as God created us to have have these problems.

Or we wouldn't try to understand earthquakes and weather patterns that cause flooding...as god intended us to have these things.

so because there are people who question the ways of the world (and the universe) we have attained many advances that wouldn't have otherwise have been possible.


ermm... did you read my post? :wink:
"Quod me nutruit, me destruit..."

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Postby huggybear » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:01 am

indeed i did.

i don't think believing in santa clause is an accurate comparison. last i checked people don't kill each other over their varying beliefs in santa clause.

but i zeroed in on this phrase: "The fact that we are thinking beings and intelligent ones in this case is enough proof that God made a good work in his creation."

to me this says you ascribe to to the creationism school of religious thought. Then it boils down to ... what the hell did god create? just humans? did he create grass or disease?

and where does it stop? if we're going to teach creationism, can i come up with the religion of "Sim City" and argue that we're all just participants in a video game? why can we not teach that in school curriculums?

i don't beileve in god, but i believe in hope and statisics that show that someone has to overcome severe adversity to beat the odds. hope and religion are two seperate things in my opinion. i believe in religion as it ascribes to culture in terms of beautiful gothic churches such as notre dame or beautiful indian / thai temples or wonderful mosques of Iran. or the rich history of story telling....such as the story of santa clause.

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Postby germangirl » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:12 am

Hi all,

we are now talking about god, and I can say, that I do belive in him. Or at least in some kind of higher force, that I guess is called God by lots of people. If its up to my we could also call it Goerge or Paul or whatever.

I was corn in a catholic family, but I left the church. Churches are man made, fur sure there were time when the churches have been very important to many people. Mostly, to get together with other people, discuss their problems, their thoughts, their worries. To go together through bad times, and also good times.... I don't say, the church is something bad... but by today, I just cannot see what going to church gives me.... except from them taking my money, and you never know, what they actually do with it (do they actually do something good with it?)

I believe, that god is everywhere, and I can talk to him whereever I am. I don't believe I have to go to any church for that. I don't belive I have to pay a tax (in germany there is a special churchtax you have to pay every month). I don't believe, this is what god wants.
Beliveing in him goves us hope and strenghts in some situations. Of course I questions things and of course there's alot of things we cannot understand, why things happen the way they do. Still I believe there is a reason for it to happen. Even I can't see it.

I am readin a very good book right now, and one sentence just comes to my mind: you don't live the life you live, just the live you think you live (or so... book is in german, so had to translate.... hope, you get the meaning). your thoughts influence your daily life. I believeve the belive is important, and everybody belives in something. And if some people need God for this, than it is ok.

I have a good friend who is a very strong beliver... she is preying before she easts, before she leaves the house, before she does anything.... actually, that I think is a waste of time, because she spents half her day preying.... well, but everyone must figure out for themself.
we know what we are, but know not what we may be

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Postby Kurozu » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 1:05 pm

[quote="2die4]Oh i'm sorry kurozo i didn't intend you to interpret it that way, what i mean is victor was into philosophical stuff , which for me is a positive thing although it could have been communicated in a better way but i think his intentions were good. and you started this interesting and philosophical topic as well wherein i saw the connection between you and victor, hope i made myself clear... :wink: [/quote]

That clears up a bit. Actually, I did not know victor that well.

This time I will stay away from Santa and go for Easter Bunny. LOL...

I respect you very much because of your firm believe in GOD. I have no problem with that. Like huggybear said, I too have some issue with followers who spread their religion aggressively.

Back to the issue....... God existance?

I still think it is a concidence that we became intelligent beings based on many theories like the Dawin's evolution theory etc. And if intelligent beings such as you and me can make up fairy stories and characters like the Easter Bunny, why can't intelligent being creates a ficitious thing such as God too? Thor was created because our ignorant ancestors did not understand the nature of lightning and thunder. Does Thor exist? The Christians, Muslims etc will, of course, say no. If you turn this around, atheist can also say GOD does not exist.
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Postby germangirl » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 1:18 pm

Kurozu wrote:

I still think it is a concidence that we became intelligent beings based on many theories like the Dawin's evolution theory etc. And if intelligent beings such as you and me can make up fairy stories and characters like the Easter Bunny, why can't intelligent being creates a ficitious thing such as God too? Thor was created because our ignorant ancestors did not understand the nature of lightning and thunder. Does Thor exist? The Christians, Muslims etc will, of course, say no. If you turn this around, atheist can also say GOD does not exist.


that's what I mean, the believe itself is the important thing, not the name of what you belive in... no matter if you call him God, Thor or Buddha or Allah. Isn't the important thing to believe in something that strong, that it gives you strenghts and patience? Maybe it is all manmade, actually, we will never really know. Still, the bible and all other religious books tell a lot of truth. And believing in this, and acting like this.
And isnt't it, that the Apostels, who knew Jesus, started spreading his word over the world. And isn't it, that every story told varies a little bit from the true story, that happenend? So can we be sure, that every word in the bible is true and tells us exaclty what happened? It is all a question of interpretation.
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Postby Kurozu » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 2:57 pm

hi germangirl

my previous post was a reply to 2die4. Sorry about the mix up.

But I agree with you. The bible has a lots of flaws that followers cannot be serious enough to follow literally.

For example Leviticus 25:44-46 is a quote that old southern american landlords used to justify their clause on slavery their way of life.
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

If we were to believe that bible were made by God, then we should follow these passage and slave our neighbor!!!!!
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 6:55 pm

Have you talked to many Domestic Helpers here in Singapore? If you did you might believe that this was the Southern US as well regarding the treating of people like slaves. :oops!:

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 7:27 pm

Wow, another God thread, and the best one I've ever seen on this forum.

./. wrote:I'll be as succinct as possible to sum up my opinion.

1. What is God?
A. I don't know...

2. Do I believe there is much beyond human understanding at this moment in time?
A. Yes...black holes for instance.

3. What we have learnt about our existence so far is staggering. Is it possible that the entire orderly Universe is a chemical coincidence?
A. Probably not... The vastness and diversity of the universe, is itself beyond the casual imagination, for such incredibly precise chemical coincidences. We have just begun to understand our own evolution and of our planet.

4. In light of 1,2, and 3 would I believe that the Universe is arranged (maybe even just a chemical freak arrangement contrary to no.2)? And on the flip side, not necessarily by or because of something within human understanding...
A. Yes...

5. Is it acceptable to me to call the cause (be it energy, or a substance, or something beyond energy and/or substance) of this arrangement - God? At least at this moment in time?
A. I can see no other way at this moment in time...


./., (gosh, its impossible to even attempt to say your nick in my head - like talking to a robot instead of a real person)

Your summary says better than myself what I think. I'm in total agreement with you.

I've never understood the logic of the "you can't prove God exists therefore he doesn't" argument. That is awful logic. If we can't prove God exists, we can't prove he exists. That's all, nothing more. We also can't prove that he does not exist. So logical proof is moot.

All that is needed is to show that the notion of a God does not contradict what we know of logic, science, history etc.

Has anyone here read Conversations with God (all 3 books)? It's blasphemous by some accounts but I've never seen a better marriage of God and logic.

2die4 wrote:When I was 7 years old I found out that Santa Claus is not real that it was my mum and my grandmother who were giving me gifts underneath the x-mas tree but this didn't stop me from believing that there is a God. Although they lied to me, and it hurt me that made me believe in Santa, I still found good things about it...

In fact up to now I am still thankful that they made me believe that there's Santa. I learned 3 important lessons:
1. To hope - I think that all of us need to learn to hope. or to have it inside us, no matter how desperate things can get, there is always something... something to help us, something to support us, or just to make us hold on...

2. That every deed whether good or bad gets something in return I remember when I was young I would always bear in mind that I should be nice or else Santa would not give me a gift, although it may seem like a childish motivation of doing things right, it kept me from doing bad things which i might regret later on. it kept me from getting into trouble.

3. The value of waiting or being patient I used to wait until way past my bedtime just to get a glimpse of Santa until my dad would have to carry me to my room coz i already fell asleep on the couch. i kept on promising myself that next xmas i would be more patient i would get the energy to wait and wait and wait until Santa comes.

These are just few of the things I learned because I believed in Santa, but when i found out he didn't exist or it's not "Santa" per se with the red suit and white beard, laughing ho-ho-ho who gives me gifts, it didn't matter to me...

2die4,

That's an excellent post.


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