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exemption from national service

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 08 Sep 2007 9:04 am

sgmom,

One thing puzzles me. You state you are still in the process of getting your green card. How have you been in the US all these years? H1B visa's? If you are not a US citizen and need a green card you cannot give up your Singapore Passport as you will become a stateless person. A US green card is Permanent Residence exactly like here in Singapore. You are still a citizen of your former country and will still need to the passport of that country both valid and current. This will also apply to you son as well as he is a Singaporean by birth I assume. Getting a greencard will not negate your son's liability for National Service and you cannot renounce without being a citizen of another country as I doubt Singapore would allow this. You son would also not be allowed to remain in the US without a valid passport either.

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Postby Sg_mom » Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:29 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:sgmom,

One thing puzzles me. You state you are still in the process of getting your green card. How have you been in the US all these years? H1B visa's?

My husband applied with a J-visa (sponsored student) from Malaysia. After that he found a job and applied for waiver from Malaysia and there it took almost 4 years just to transfer to H1. Than 911 happened and our application were stuck for almost 7 years now in the US immigration backlog. So they grant us legally to extend our visa beyond 6 years, for as long as our visas get reviewed and approval of green card.

(If you are not a US citizen and need a green card you cannot give up your Singapore Passport as you will become a stateless person. A US green card is Permanent Residence exactly like here in Singapore. You are still a citizen of your former country and will still need to the passport of that country both valid and current. This will also apply to you son as well as he is a Singaporean by birth I assume. Getting a greencard will not negate your son's liability for National Service and you cannot renounce without being a citizen of another country as I doubt Singapore would allow this. You son would also not be allowed to remain in the US without a valid passport either.


My son status was tied with my passport all along until he was 10, which then Singapore required him to apply for a passport on his own. Then by 13 I'll have to submit an intention to renounce or put a bond of $75,000. Since it is not officially to renounce, it is legal to submit intention with even just a green card as long as we do not enjoy Singapore's 'benefits'. (assuming the transition to citizen in 5 years time enough time to get his US citizenship).

The tricky part is he is allowed to renew his passport but I was hinted that he'll then have used Singapore's 'benefit' and may require to return for NS. This to me is unreasonable because he left when he was 8 months old! Is asking for a passport as a legal status a benefit? I feel it is a requirement. Has Singapore no, absolutely no obligation at all to a Singapore citizen (me) who paid tax all my life owe my son a legal status? Is it always what we owe the country? What would my son be, an exile? He has not commit a crime for goodness sake! And I intend to abide by the law to submit an intention before 13, so what did we do wrong?

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Postby jpatokal » Sat, 08 Sep 2007 1:44 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Sometimes you are so :roll: ........

C'mon, I used to do computer security for a living. You can rest assured that the state of data protection in industry and government is terrible and your privacy is being gang-raped in ways you can't even think of -- only problem is, it's all happening way out in the background where you can't see it, not in your passport or other commonly assumed bugaboos like hotel key cards.

Image


But I'm glad to see you're still adopting the right attitude to the infallible knowledge I am so graciously dispensing free of charge :cool:
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 08 Sep 2007 3:03 pm

:tongue: :wink:

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Postby jpatokal » Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:40 pm

Plavt wrote:
jpatokal wrote:If the police in country A want to get your data from country B, they can request access directly and get it immediately.


What information and what database?


http://www.interpol.int/Public/icpo/cor ... abases.asp

MIND/FIND: How does it work?

An officer can submit a query to the national system by simply passing a passport over a digital scanner or manually entering its identification number. The response indicates whether or not the document matches one in the database.

The query passes simultaneously to a national database (if existing) and either the database at the Interpol General Secretariat (FIND) or a local copy of the data (MIND) via Interpol’s I-24/7 global police communications network.

The officer will receive responses from both within seconds. An electronic alert system notifies member countries concerned of potential matches.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:39 pm

Sg_mom wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:sgmom,

One thing puzzles me. You state you are still in the process of getting your green card. How have you been in the US all these years? H1B visa's?

My husband applied with a J-visa (sponsored student) from Malaysia. After that he found a job and applied for waiver from Malaysia and there it took almost 4 years just to transfer to H1. Than 911 happened and our application were stuck for almost 7 years now in the US immigration backlog. So they grant us legally to extend our visa beyond 6 years, for as long as our visas get reviewed and approval of green card.

(If you are not a US citizen and need a green card you cannot give up your Singapore Passport as you will become a stateless person. A US green card is Permanent Residence exactly like here in Singapore. You are still a citizen of your former country and will still need to the passport of that country both valid and current. This will also apply to you son as well as he is a Singaporean by birth I assume. Getting a greencard will not negate your son's liability for National Service and you cannot renounce without being a citizen of another country as I doubt Singapore would allow this. You son would also not be allowed to remain in the US without a valid passport either.


My son status was tied with my passport all along until he was 10, which then Singapore required him to apply for a passport on his own. Then by 13 I'll have to submit an intention to renounce or put a bond of $75,000. Since it is not officially to renounce, it is legal to submit intention with even just a green card as long as we do not enjoy Singapore's 'benefits'. (assuming the transition to citizen in 5 years time enough time to get his US citizenship).

The tricky part is he is allowed to renew his passport but I was hinted that he'll then have used Singapore's 'benefit' and may require to return for NS. This to me is unreasonable because he left when he was 8 months old! Is asking for a passport as a legal status a benefit? I feel it is a requirement. Has Singapore no, absolutely no obligation at all to a Singapore citizen (me) who paid tax all my life owe my son a legal status? Is it always what we owe the country? What would my son be, an exile? He has not commit a crime for goodness sake! And I intend to abide by the law to submit an intention before 13, so what did we do wrong?


You seem to have inadvertently created the problem for him. You cannot renounce your son's singaporean citizenship if he doesn't hold citizenship in another country. As he IS A SINGAPORE CITIZEN, he must abide by Singapore laws (even if he is in the US, unless he has dual citizenship (not green cards). If this means he must apply for a passport due to his age then he must. While this isn't the answer you want, I feel pretty sure this is the position that the government here will adopt. You have known for some time that this was coming. Why wait till the last minute to try to figure out what to do? I mean, surely, you know that getting a green card is not getting US citizenship and you would still have to get him a passport when he was 12 or 13.

Q2. How long do I have to wait after getting LPR status to become a U.S. citizen?

A2. If you got your LPR status based on marriage, you are generally required to wait for 3 years. If you got your LPR on any other basis, you are generally required to wait for 5 years. However, you may begin the process approximately one year before you reach your 3-year or 5-year date.


According to the above, even if you had gotten your green card in 2003 you would still not be able to get US citizenship until 2008. (starting the process doesn't alleviate the necessity of have a valid passport from your home of record.).

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Postby Plavt » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:46 am

jpatokal wrote:
http://www.interpol.int/Public/icpo/cor ... abases.asp

MIND/FIND: How does it work?

An officer can submit a query to the national system by simply passing a passport over a digital scanner or manually entering its identification number. The response indicates whether or not the document matches one in the database.

The query passes simultaneously to a national database (if existing) and either the database at the Interpol General Secretariat (FIND) or a local copy of the data (MIND) via Interpol’s I-24/7 global police communications network.

The officer will receive responses from both within seconds. An electronic alert system notifies member countries concerned of potential matches.


All very interesting but I wonder what information would be held on the police database of a country to which a query is sent? Here in the UK the Police National Computer (PNC) would only hold information about somebody who had been cautioned of convicted and they can match car registrations with addresses (how they track suspected terrorists I don't entirely know). Other than that I doubt that it would have much if anything to offer. On the other hand a good number of countries have no such database system, you are most likely aware how disarray there is in some of the countries in Eastern Europe.

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Postby Sg_mom » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 7:09 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
You seem to have inadvertently created the problem for him. You cannot renounce your son's singaporean citizenship if he doesn't hold citizenship in another country. As he IS A SINGAPORE CITIZEN, he must abide by Singapore laws (even if he is in the US, unless he has dual citizenship (not green cards). If this means he must apply for a passport due to his age then he must. While this isn't the answer you want, I feel pretty sure this is the position that the government here will adopt. You have known for some time that this was coming. Why wait till the last minute to try to figure out what to do? I mean, surely, you know that getting a green card is not getting US citizenship and you would still have to get him a passport when he was 12 or 13.


I don't think you even understand the whole situation and you are already presuming that I am guilty. Do you think it is as easy to get a US citizenship as compared to you getting a Singapore citizenship? I planned to move to US even before I got married! Anyway because of my Singapore citizenship, my Malaysian husband could not get my son a Malaysian citizenship as well. Malaysia do not want to get into the NS issues with Singapore. So we move to the States. How could we foresee it would take us 10 years and still waiting just to get our green card? My son has not enjoyed any benefit from Singapore since 8 months old and now that he has his passport (empty without any stamps btw) for 2 years, he is liable to serve Singapore? I would certainly encourage him to be patriotic and serve the army if called for, but for the US since he grew up here.

Anyway, there is no point explaining my whole situation. I am just hoping to find out if there is anybody in this forum, since I see many Singaporeans as well, who has 'benefited' from a Singapore passport and have been rejected solely on this benefit, so I can plan for further option.

Q2. How long do I have to wait after getting LPR status to become a U.S. citizen?

A2. If you got your LPR status based on marriage, you are generally required to wait for 3 years. If you got your LPR on any other basis, you are generally required to wait for 5 years. However, you may begin the process approximately one year before you reach your 3-year or 5-year date.

According to the above, even if you had gotten your green card in 2003 you would still not be able to get US citizenship until 2008. (starting the process doesn't alleviate the necessity of have a valid passport from your home of record.).


I cannot renounce the Singapore citizenship for my son, can't you understand it is an intention (mine) at 13 and renunciation at 21 (his)? My son will renounce when he is 21. So he has 9-10 years (11 going to 12 really) before he can renounce his citizenship. That is year 2017!

SMS,

I have not posted enough to use the PM. So, I'll post this website here to give you a glimpse of how bad the legal immigration process in US is:

http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/

:(

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:35 pm

Sg_mom wrote:I don't think you even understand the whole situation and you are already presuming that I am guilty.

Hate to have to say this but you sure seem to be defensive. All I said was you may have inadvertently created the problem. (this does not mean anybody is accusing you of any crime) How long have you been in the US?

Do you think it is as easy to get a US citizenship as compared to you getting a Singapore citizenship?

It's a known fact. It is also a known fact the the backlogs have been there for many many years. This is not a new development nor did it happen solely because of 9/11 (I lived and worked in DC for many years and still have property in Maryland).

I planned to move to US even before I got married! Anyway because of my Singapore citizenship, my Malaysian husband could not get my son a Malaysian citizenship as well. Malaysia do not want to get into the NS issues with Singapore.

Neither does the US (Have a look at the US Embassy website for Singapore)

So we move to the States. How could we foresee it would take us 10 years and still waiting just to get our green card?

This is why one should always make a plan "B". The backlogs were there 10 years ago. After the advent of 9/11 of course it got worse and frankly if I had a son and not knowing how long it would take - nothing quantifiable - I believe I would have started weighing my options a long time ago.

My son has not enjoyed any benefit from Singapore since 8 months old and now that he has his passport (empty without any stamps btw) for 2 years, he is liable to serve Singapore? I would certainly encourage him to be patriotic and serve the army if called for, but for the US since he grew up here.

While the US Selective Service System has been mothballed since 1975, it is still there and could be reactivated at any time (my son also knows this). However, as he is already 18 he has also registered with the US Selective Service knowing that the odds of being called up while of a draft able age is always a possibility (especially in view of the US penchant for getting into stupid wars). This is to ensure that if/when he decided to go to the US (his choice) his future options will not be hampered because he decided to "avoid" his national obligation (even though he has never lived in the US nor enjoyed any benefits of US Citizenship. Not even for 8 months).

Anyway, there is no point explaining my whole situation. I am just hoping to find out if there is anybody in this forum, since I see many Singaporeans as well, who has 'benefited' from a Singapore passport and have been rejected solely on this benefit, so I can plan for further option.

I cannot renounce the Singapore citizenship for my son, can't you understand it is an intention (mine) at 13 and renunciation at 21 (his)?

I understand it completely. Therein lies the problem. You did not file your intention prior to his 11th birthday. This is what has gotten him into the predicament. His parents depended on something of which they had absolutely no control. Now, they are between a rock and a hard place that they inadvertently created. Have I got it right this time?

My son will renounce when he is 21. So he has 9-10 years (11 going to 12 really) before he can renounce his citizenship. That is year 2017!



Sg_mom,

I am not trying to agitate you at all. You came here asking questions. I have given you answers that you weren't prepared for although you knew that my answers are, in all probability, correct. If you were able to find that left field website for immigration, you were also able to find the ICA and Mindef websites as well. If you want to be mad or tell me I don't understand that's fine. But I think you will find I understand better than most.

sms

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Postby Sg_mom » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 1:22 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
I am not trying to agitate you at all. You came here asking questions. I have given you answers that you weren't prepared for although you knew that my answers are, in all probability, correct. If you were able to find that left field website for immigration, you were also able to find the ICA and Mindef websites as well. If you want to be mad or tell me I don't understand that's fine. But I think you will find I understand better than most.

sms


Haha... you haven't read all the details as clearly as I did yours and others. For the simple fact that I wrote and spoke to Mindef (stated in my 1st post) before I post here! The age to put in intention is 13, NOT 11! Furthermore, it is permissable to submit intention with a green card. How could you go so wrong and still go on ranting that it was my fault??

Anyway, getting a citizenship in US is not a problem and even to the knowledge that he may be drafted to the US army. That isn't the issue. The biggest issue is where his heart is and I am planning ahead of time even if you don't see it. Call it defensive or whatever you want, which I think it is you who is defensive. I have been direct all these while and you simply refuse to see it.

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Re: NS obligation

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 3:31 pm

Sg_mom wrote:I am greatly interested in this thread as in a year's time, I'll have to decide whether my son will do NS or opt to renounce his citizenship. My son left Singapore with us since he was 8 months old and now he is turning 12. There is really no ties for him to want to return to Singapore.

However, as we are still in the process of getting our green card, he'll need to keep his passport current for legal status. I wrote to the authority a couple of times and they have been so vague and apprehensive about the issue of renewing his passport stating that having a passport means he has enjoyed privileges in Singapore and may have to return to serve NS!

I like to find out if there is anyone here with a situation like mine who have 'enjoyed' a Singapore passport and was rejected renunciation due to having a passport? In my opinion, it'll be is quite unbelievable if it can happen but knowing how NOT transparent Singapore can be, I better find out more!


I will acknowledge that I misread some of your initial post above. However, the following two items seem pretty clear and "transparent" to me. They made the law. They are upholding it. Fair? That's another topic altogether. Clear and transparent? Very.

Consular Information Sheet - Singapore

National service-liable males who migrated from Singapore before age 11 and have not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits of citizenship (e.g., applied for a Singapore identity card or studied in Singapore beyond the age of 11) are allowed to renounce their Singapore citizenship if they do not wish to fulfill their NS obligations. They will be required to register for national service with Central Manpower Base and apply for deferment from full-time NS until the age of 21, pending the renunciation of their Singapore citizenship. They can continue to make short social visits to Singapore and will not be required to serve NS if they renounced their citizenship at age 21.


The following taken from another forum.

http://www.mfa.gov.sg/consular/faqs/faq_citizenship2.htm (This link no longer works as the "Ministry of Foreign Affairs" site has been revamped recently)

Since 5 Mar 79, the Government has been empowered under Article 128(2)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of Singapore to withhold registering a declaration of renunciation by a person who is subject to the Enlistment Act unless he has:
- discharged his liability for full-time NS;
- rendered at least 3 years of Operationally Ready National Service; or
- complied with other conditions laid down by the government.
For male citizens who left Singapore before the age of 11 and have not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits in Singapore, i.e. have not applied for an NRIC, extended their Singapore passport validity beyond the age of 11 or studied in Singapore school beyond 11 years old, we will not object to their renunciation of Singapore citizenship if they do not wish to fulfil their NS obligations. However, they should still register for full-time NS with CMPB at the age of 17½ and apply for deferment from enlistment till the age of 21 (under Singapore law, a citizen could only renounce at the age of 21) pending their decision on their Singapore citizenship status. Those who subsequently renounce their citizenship at the age of 21 will not be required to serve NS. Those who retain their Singapore citizenship will be enlisted for NSF.

Generally, those who left Singapore after the age of 11 will be deemed to have enjoyed the socio-economic benefits of Singapore. They will not be allowed to renounce their Singapore citizenship without fulfilling NS obligations.


I'll just leave you with "Good Luck" and I hope you are successful.
Last edited by sundaymorningstaple on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby sprite » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 3:58 pm

I guess this is a crazy question, and I admit I didn't slag through the entire thread and that this was touched upon -- but why is everyone trying to ditch their NS? The Singpaporeans I know who have completed it said it was a posiitve life changing experience, one in which they made value friendships and did a lot of important maturing before going off to university. Has anyone considered an exemption may not be the best thing for their son? And it's only 21 months now. It just seems this is a topic that it coming up a lot lately.

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Postby Plavt » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 4:53 pm

sprite wrote: The Singpaporeans I know


That's the problem; plenty of Singaporeans you don't know may well have good reason to disagree. Here in the UK national service was scrapped in 1959 because the authorities found that putting people in the armed forces when they didn't want to be there created a very bad armed forces.

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Postby sprite » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 5:06 pm

Yes, but this is not the UK. Things are different here. This is a very new country and a tiny one at that. I'm not sure the entire NS program should be scrapped because it doesn't work in the UK. It just seems like everyone is awed by Singapore's progress over the years, talks about how safe and clean it is, then say when it comes to be their turn: no way, not my son. The rules (while not so clear apparently) have been around for a long time. If you don't want to serve, and have no valid reason not to, then you shouldn't live here.

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Postby Superglide » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 5:37 pm

Plavt wrote:Here in the UK...


"Here" is not the UK alas, "here" we are in Singapore, as in singaporeexpats.com/forum.


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