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exemption from national service

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Kurozu
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Postby Kurozu » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 2:01 pm

Huggybear..

Thanks for the advice. I am not self piting myself nor am I afraid to admit being wrong, it is part of the growing process.

This entire issue has made me mad not because I was wrong or the message itself, but because of the what is constituted as a human right by the Singapore govt.

But if you think about this NS issue carefully, my basketball bro, it not only claims that we (singaporeans) have an obligation to serve National Service but it also said that if your wife had a kid in Singapore, your kid must serve NS as well (even though clearly you and your wife has US citizenship, and you will have every intention to drop your kid's Singaporean Citizenship in the future).

According to your source, Melvyn Tan has already renounced his Singaporean Citizenship in 1978. And he is still liable for NS and jail sentence is really shocking to me.... Or am I over-reacting? Even though I will renounce my son's citizenship, my son is still liable for NS in the future?

I am amazed that "Some observers said he had been let off easy because of his stature......" . What is going on?

I may be living in a cave right now, but those who are living outside of the cave will think that way is making me speechless.........
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 3:55 pm

Kurozu,

My apologies regarding the age crack. I had written it but then deleted it. I did not realize I had somehow posted it as well. Hence the two identical posts with the second one not having the remark. After I originally typed it I realized it had absolutely no relevance to the dialog. Again, my apologies.

However, I still stand behind my hypothesis (I never claimed they were using everything already - only the Photo Recognition Software)This IS being used to catch returning maids, foreign labourers & prostitutes using new/different passports after being deported out of Singapore.

This wasn't an argument. This was a good discussion. At the end of it I've realized a few things as well. One is that I know nothing about US basketball! And two, if we think hard enough and long enough we can find a potential exception to every rule. :cool:

sms

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Postby Kurozu » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 4:09 pm

Dear SMS, I apologise my ignorant too, but I learnt alot.

It is even serious than I thought. I like to have my kids meet their grandmother in the future. But knowing that it will put him in jail and thousands dollars of fine even after renouncing citizenship is not comforting.

What the h_ck .... maybe I am just worrying for nothing.

I will try fantasy baseball .... LOL

Good Luck

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I think your kids can renounce singapore citizenship

Postby brainchild » Tue, 03 Jul 2007 1:48 pm

See this link provided by the US Embassy... check if the same apply for British... I think the age is before 11 years old... do double check...

http://singapore.usembassy.gov/military ... apore.html

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Re: I think your kids can renounce singapore citizenship

Postby ksl » Tue, 03 Jul 2007 4:47 pm

brainchild wrote:See this link provided by the US Embassy... check if the same apply for British... I think the age is before 11 years old... do double check...

http://singapore.usembassy.gov/military ... apore.html


Military or national service (NS) liable males who emigrated overseas before age 11 and have not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits of citizenship, (e.g. applied for a Singapore Identity Card or studied in Singapore beyond the age of 11), will be allowed to renounce their Singapore citizenship if they do not wish to fulfil their NS obligations.

Well it does look like the main crux is the IC or studied beyond the age of 11!

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Re: I think your kids can renounce singapore citizenship

Postby ksl » Wed, 04 Jul 2007 10:01 pm

ksl wrote:
brainchild wrote:See this link provided by the US Embassy... check if the same apply for British... I think the age is before 11 years old... do double check...

http://singapore.usembassy.gov/military ... apore.html


Military or national service (NS) liable males who emigrated overseas before age 11 and have not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits of citizenship, (e.g. applied for a Singapore Identity Card or studied in Singapore beyond the age of 11), will be allowed to renounce their Singapore citizenship if they do not wish to fulfil their NS obligations.

Well it does look like the main crux is the IC or studied beyond the age of 11!


Been thinking about this for a while now, based on my son wanting to join the army at 16, at first i tried very hard to talk him out of it, simply because over the years I could see, he was kind of wanting to be like dad. This worried me quite alot, having not been there for him, because of divorce, he was obviously suffering an identity problem of which I believed he would grow out of.

The fact is mother had signed the papers, and after several months of strict discipline realised, he had made a mistake and begged his mum to get him out, this didn't materialise, and he was automatically transfered into manservice, and went awol, eventually they caugt him, more than once i must say, but is punishment of prison, is certainly questionable, considering he was a volunteer. In all he spent well over a year behind bars for not accepting brainwashing!

This had an adverse affect on his mental state and for the government in general, these harsh victorian methods are out of touch with reality today, although have anyone informed the MOD.

My worry is, that if a young man is not at the age of consent, why should he be held by a parental signature! This method of taking signatures from parents on the behalf of there children, no matter what Country they live, must be seen has a breeach of human rights, A parent should not be allowed to sign these papers, or a government should not prey on the parents of children to do National Service.

It is my true oppinion, that National Service should be encouraged, by loyalty to a nation, and rewarded as such, but individual rights must be respected, it is not about being scared to do Military Service.

If the age of National Service is 18 year old and can be defered, then, these 18 year olds must be responsible for their own futures, and not a parental promise by signatures.

This way the adult can self choose, without the pressure being on all the family, and lets be fair here, kids don't have much choice in life do they, So its very wrong of government to prey on them this way! although until there is a challenge through the judicial system, things will remain the same.

I would think it better to have loyalty in the services, than have a bunch of unhappy, bitter, young mutineer, in the time of combat, that are skilled to act against the government.

I often wonder, how many of the IRA had served in the British Army, and were quite highly skilled only to gain intelligence for the future! Of course most governments look at the expendability of the force, they are recruiting, simply because they don't have to stand side by side, with a noncombatant, of which there are many, in the service, with this ideology!

It would also be nice to see an option on sign up too! Like I will solemnly declare to defend my Country and solemnly declare not to attack anyother! :lol:

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Postby LT » Thu, 05 Jul 2007 1:04 am

Hi ksl,

I served my National Service from July 2000 to Nov 2002. No doubt it was a tough time, but definitely a very memorable period too. During these 2.5 yrs, I learned not only on how to fight in a war, very importantly I learn how to be a better person. Surprisingly, NS taught me how to treasure things and people around me and also to be more matured.

If you ask me if I feel I have wasted those 2.5 yrs... I will say no... But if you ask if I wanna go back to that period... NO WAY!!! Ha....

Overall, NS can really help to change a boy to a man...

Cheers...
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Postby ksl » Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:45 pm

LT wrote:Hi ksl,

I served my National Service from July 2000 to Nov 2002. No doubt it was a tough time, but definitely a very memorable period too. During these 2.5 yrs, I learned not only on how to fight in a war, very importantly I learn how to be a better person. Surprisingly, NS taught me how to treasure things and people around me and also to be more matured.

If you ask me if I feel I have wasted those 2.5 yrs... I will say no... But if you ask if I wanna go back to that period... NO WAY!!! Ha....

Overall, NS can really help to change a boy to a man...

Cheers...


Overall, NS can really help to change a boy to a man...

Did you know, i started shaving the bum fluff at 13 years of age, lost my cherry, and drank booze illegally, becuase i couldn't wait to be a man, and add to that my first tattoo.........You didn't guess! It was (MAM) tatooed, hoping that she wouldn't beat the crap out of me, and she didn't, she called me a bloody fool, and gave me a pep talk on the company i was mixing with, she cared and grounded me until i had better sense, to listen to her.

At the age of 18, i signed my life away on a 22/9 year option to become a professional, after 12 years I was questioning myself, and my peers about the injustices we had to carry out, in the name of what, I still don't know! Others said it was our job, not duty :???: But after seeing my mates get killed for political stardom and double morals, the smoke screen laid down was lifting, and i could see the light! That we the soldiers, were being sold out for political gain.

I quite often get flamed for my opinions, although what my mum taught me was fairness, equality, truth, and loyalty and to appreciate people for what they are, and not by skin colour living where i lived in an area of all whites, it wasn't long before i was defending the meek and timid. Colour, religion, or race has never been an issue in our family.

Having a catholic IRA sympathiser for a father, who by the way was British ( I wasn't aware they exsisted) and only sympathised because his sister was married into an Irish catholic family and more for the workering class and a Welsh mother who used to battle politics on a daily basis, soon turned me off voting for anyone in the future. :mad: It was a mad house,

Although when you talk about making a man out of you in NS, I will say it is a very important part of life, that should be experienced, I'm not saying one should enjoy it, but learn from it and use it in a beneficial way.

But it is wrong to be forced into it! I stand firm and fast by cassius clays stand against the American authorities, and against anyone that refuses to soldier on private beliefs, it is their rights, and no one asks them to be born into this troubled world.

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Postby LT » Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:01 am

In Singapore situation, the Government has no choice but to enforce constription. Singapore is an island country with about 4mil population. We do not have any natural resources to support ourselves, and geographically, we are surround by Islamic countries. Thus without enforcing compulsory NS, Singapore will not be able to defend ourselves should problem arise.

Other than the UN peacekeeping mission, Singapore has never sent the army to take part in any overseas wars. We learn from the WW2 that to defend the country, we have to rely on ourselves and no one else. Thus, I will think that the Singapore army are more for defend purposes and not invading (like the US army) purposes.
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Postby ksl » Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:41 am

LT wrote:In Singapore situation, the Government has no choice but to enforce constription. Singapore is an island country with about 4mil population. We do not have any natural resources to support ourselves, and geographically, we are surround by Islamic countries. Thus without enforcing compulsory NS, Singapore will not be able to defend ourselves should problem arise.

Other than the UN peacekeeping mission, Singapore has never sent the army to take part in any overseas wars. We learn from the WW2 that to defend the country, we have to rely on ourselves and no one else. Thus, I will think that the Singapore army are more for defend purposes and not invading (like the US army) purposes.


I think we also have to be realistic here, Singapore is not at all likely to fight any wars, or defend itself, being an important financial hub in the world and a very important strategic port.

I served here in the late 70 in an armoured recce unit, based on Dover road, affiliated with the 6th Gurkha Riffles.

Your right NS for defence is very important and in my opinion should be considered by all, 2.5 years is nothing, and believe me, Singaporeans may believe they have gained little in 40 years, but when compared to UK, or the USA, they should really be thankful for what they have got, in comparison to the poor.

One should always be thankful for what they have, because many are much worse off around the world and even on the doorstep!


Singapore offers opportunities for advancement, so one needs to consider the sacrifices, to take advantage of the opportunities, not easy, but not impossible either, and i do actually see people making that effort to succeed.

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Postby LT » Fri, 06 Jul 2007 2:07 am

I agree with you that it's very unlikely Singapore will ever go into a war. Other than being a defend force, I think the second reason for the existence of a conscription army is to prevent other neighbouring country from the North from "bullying" Singapore or force Singapore into some unfair agreement.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 06 Jul 2007 9:57 am

LT, in a conversation that I had with the now retired Winston Chew many years ago (I lived in Seletar Camp for 15 years) at a New Year Social function in the base, he told me that the most that the Singapore Forces hoped for was a 72 hour standoff capability. This capability would allow Singapore's allies the necessary time get here to provide needed allied support. While it's capabilities have increased dramatically since those days, I feel the 72 hour standoff capability probably is still very much a part of the basic game plan.

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Postby LT » Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:19 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:LT, in a conversation that I had with the now retired Winston Chew many years ago (I lived in Seletar Camp for 15 years) at a New Year Social function in the base, he told me that the most that the Singapore Forces hoped for was a 72 hour standoff capability. This capability would allow Singapore's allies the necessary time get here to provide needed allied support. While it's capabilities have increased dramatically since those days, I feel the 72 hour standoff capability probably is still very much a part of the basic game plan.


Hi SMS,

You referred to Lt-Gen Winston Choo? He's a very nice guy... I believe with the current SAF's capabilities, we are definitely be able to hold back the hostile forces for more than 72 hours.

Singapore has several overseas air bases around the world. The 72 hours standoff is also for our overseas air bases to fly back to Singapore.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 06 Jul 2007 6:42 pm

Sorry my spelling was incorrect but yes. I met him at an Officers New Year's party at the old Officers club there down where the old Saltwater Pool was located (I've actually been swimming in that pool!) Been here a long time!

Yes, agreed it would let the overseas based airforces return but even so, one has to remember that our neighbours haven't been just sitting on their heels either. I think it still boils down to the same scenario (the time duration will probably have changed) and that is why Singapore still conducts 5 power defense exercises and so forth. Otherwise it would pretty much be a waste of resources wouldn't it. They have to hedge their bets as a max call-up of 350K men isn't enough to do much of anything except get in each others way considering the fitness levels of 2/3's of them at any given time. I'm just being realistic here and in no way trying to diss the military.

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Postby LT » Sat, 07 Jul 2007 1:24 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Sorry my spelling was incorrect but yes. I met him at an Officers New Year's party at the old Officers club there down where the old Saltwater Pool was located (I've actually been swimming in that pool!) Been here a long time!

Yes, agreed it would let the overseas based airforces return but even so, one has to remember that our neighbours haven't been just sitting on their heels either. I think it still boils down to the same scenario (the time duration will probably have changed) and that is why Singapore still conducts 5 power defense exercises and so forth. Otherwise it would pretty much be a waste of resources wouldn't it. They have to hedge their bets as a max call-up of 350K men isn't enough to do much of anything except get in each others way considering the fitness levels of 2/3's of them at any given time. I'm just being realistic here and in no way trying to diss the military.


In regards to the fitness level, ha... more than 90% of the armed forces consists of working adults... and most of their fitness level is no longer there.... I was from the Commando... and my fitness level is worse than anybody out there now.... :lol:
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