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exemption from national service

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 02 Mar 2007 6:37 pm

Kurozu wrote:I hope this topic is still open............

I think you r worrying too much. As long as you and your family travel to singapore with British passport, you are safe (even if your kids have 2 or 3 passports).

No country in their right constitution will kidnap a person who is assumed to be a former citizen of a country. Moreover, passport is the proof of your kids' nationality, not your kids' birthplace. Or else the passport has no meaning at all. Furthermore, there are so many families are in your case (mine too) and we encountered no problem.

Maybe that is why you do not find any information that relates to your worry. Because your situation is non-existance. If I were wrong, then many will not travel to Singapore, and Sing Govt will have their hands full dealing with foreign govt over issue like "British citizen forced to serve in Singapore", and that I think is illogical.


I hate to be the one to burst your bubble but here's the facts.

1. Most countries are going to the biometric passports. This will contain all kinds of information including country of Birth.

2. Singapore already uses Photo ID Recognition software to catch persons returning to Singapore using different passports.

3. Most advanced countries are also tapped into Interpol. With their worldwide database at these countries disposal it will be rather easy to track people.

4. It will be only a matter of time be for the biometric passport data will be used for computerized passenger lists. These lists will be forwarded to all stops for a given flight including the terminal city. By the time the flight arrives, all information will have been checked with interpol, the arrival countries databases and so forth. Gotcha!

Even if the kid waltzes in using a British Passport, e.g., if his passport shows a Singapore place of birth or for that matter a Singapore Parent. Easy-Peasy to check against their own birth data records. If the kid was born in Singapore and was a Singapore Citizen, It wouldn't matter what kind of passport the kid was carrying, unless there is a record of renounciation in his file, he is still a Singaporean Citizen and will be subject to the laws of the country (including the carrying of two passports in violation of Singapore Law). And there is absolutely nothing that the British Government can do about it. The US government goes so far as saying that if you do have dual citizenship, you are subject to the laws of whichever country you happen to be in at the time.

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Postby huggybear » Sat, 03 Mar 2007 10:43 am

Kurozu wrote:I hope this topic is still open............

I think you r worrying too much. As long as you and your family travel to singapore with British passport, you are safe (even if your kids have 2 or 3 passports).

No country in their right constitution will kidnap a person who is assumed to be a former citizen of a country. Moreover, passport is the proof of your kids' nationality, not your kids' birthplace. Or else the passport has no meaning at all. Furthermore, there are so many families are in your case (mine too) and we encountered no problem.

Maybe that is why you do not find any information that relates to your worry. Because your situation is non-existance. If I were wrong, then many will not travel to Singapore, and Sing Govt will have their hands full dealing with foreign govt over issue like "British citizen forced to serve in Singapore", and that I think is illogical.


then how the hell do you explain guantanmo bay and all the foreign citizens the US kidnapped to throw in there for the past five years without any due process of law?

or how about the secret prisons in Afghanistan set up by the CIA so they could literally fly into european countries, kidnap imams at mosques and beat them senseless?

the american who vandalized the cars and was caned six times in the early 90s?

how about that aussie woman a few months ago that brought in drugs (i think they were slipped on to her?) and was sentenced to death? did they kill her??

singapore does not seem to care about what other countries think of its legal system or whether they detain people.

the world is a different place my friend.

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Postby Saint » Tue, 06 Mar 2007 9:10 pm

Military or national service (NS) liable males who emigrated overseas before age 11 and have not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits of citizenship, (e.g. applied for a Singapore Identity Card or studied in Singapore beyond the age of 11), will be allowed to renounce their Singapore citizenship if they do not wish to fulfil their NS obligations. They will be required to register for NS with Central Manpower Base and apply for deferment from full-time NS (NSF) until the age of 21, pending the renunciation of their Singapore citizenship. They can continue to make short social visits to Singapore and will not be required to serve NS if they renounced their citizenship at age 21.

As long as the OP follows the rules by the book, the kids shouldn't have any problems in the future but they need to act fast!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 06 Mar 2007 9:24 pm

Saint wrote:As long as the OP follows the rules by the book, the kids shouldn't have any problems in the future but they need to act fast!


I think, if you will re-read the OP's original post you will find that they did nothing by the books. Therein lies their problem.

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Postby Saint » Tue, 06 Mar 2007 9:36 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Saint wrote:As long as the OP follows the rules by the book, the kids shouldn't have any problems in the future but they need to act fast!


I think, if you will re-read the OP's original post you will find that they did nothing by the books. Therein lies their problem.


Agree SMS, the OP didn't do anything wrong back in 2000, unfortunately the problems lie now in 2006/2007 when the kids should have registered for NS by the age of 16 plus.

What amazes me is that the info is so readily available in black and white on the net. Due to no fault of their own, the kids could have commited an offence under Singapore law.

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Postby Kurozu » Wed, 07 Mar 2007 1:11 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I hate to be the one to burst your bubble but here's the facts.

1. Most countries are going to the biometric passports. This will contain all kinds of information including country of Birth.

2. Singapore already uses Photo ID Recognition software to catch persons returning to Singapore using different passports.

3. Most advanced countries are also tapped into Interpol. With their worldwide database at these countries disposal it will be rather easy to track people.

4. It will be only a matter of time be for the biometric passport data will be used for computerized passenger lists. These lists will be forwarded to all stops for a given flight including the terminal city. By the time the flight arrives, all information will have been checked with interpol, the arrival countries databases and so forth. Gotcha!

Even if the kid waltzes in using a British Passport, e.g., if his passport shows a Singapore place of birth or for that matter a Singapore Parent. Easy-Peasy to check against their own birth data records. If the kid was born in Singapore and was a Singapore Citizen, It wouldn't matter what kind of passport the kid was carrying, unless there is a record of renounciation in his file, he is still a Singaporean Citizen and will be subject to the laws of the country (including the carrying of two passports in violation of Singapore Law). And there is absolutely nothing that the British Government can do about it. The US government goes so far as saying that if you do have dual citizenship, you are subject to the laws of whichever country you happen to be in at the time.


I do not mind my bubble being burst :D This forum is what is about.

What you are saying is very informative but I still have my doubts that they had already implemented it. But if a smaller system that targets only criminals, I will believe. This is not realistic in many ways.

1. This system has clearly violated the Human Rights, and the rights of a person to go anyway they wish. We are not criminal. Why should the government be tracking our every movement?

2. Even without your sophiscated system, the government already knew where a person's orgin are. Why millions dollar system?

3. This system works if and only if they knew who they are tracking just like those criminal or terrorist. Your system will crash if the government wants to track every single people coming in and out of singapore. Not to mentioned the amount of security officers you needed to catch these offenders. Or the personnels who have to check around the clock who is coming in.

4. The government checking every single passengers in an airplane, ok, what if they got the wrong guy? What if my dad and I have the same name? My dad was born in Singapore, but I was born in UK? Or what if there is another guy who was born in Singapore and another guy with the same name was born in UK? Chances are very high, and the system have to make sure that it can discriminate it. DNA will work but come-on, DNA for every child born in Singapore. Good Luck.

5. Hit me on the head if I am wrong. Do parents in Singapore given the note that said "Military or national service (NS) liable males who emigrated overseas before age 11 and have not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits of citizenship, ..blahblah... at age 21." Everybody makes a mistake by forgetting to renounce their citizenship. Is that punishable for 2yrs in NS? It is absurd.

6. I am ignorant in database and world computer system. But the system must involves with many countries. How can the government do upgrades, checks, edits, etc. and not to mentioned that they have to have a top of the class security to stop hackers and virus. Another government department to handle all these? Taxpayers money?

7. And another problems is (like you said) not all countries have biometric passport. So, some people get away, some dont. That is not fair.

To huggerbear
Bush has violated the Habeas corpus in Guantánamo Bay. I am not sure what is the end result, but Bush is in a lot of trouble.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 9:41 pm

Kurozu,

They have been catching returning Maids using different passports with different names for a couple of years now. A number have been caught with the photo recognition software.

Using biometric data they could just do a standing query for any individual that shows a Singapore Parent. If the computer pops up one on a passenger list then it's very easy to check further and for that matter tie into their own databases. If there is enough points raised the an officer would be dispatched to interview the incoming transit.

Are you aware that NSA has been reading the worlds email for almost 10 years? The electronic evesdropping is so sophisticated that it looks for certain words/phrases in email and from there flags it for further investigation. (It doesn't stop the email just reroutes a copy of same). If the US (which is way behind Singapore's capabilities IT wise) can track Income Taxes for 300M citizens, it's small potatoes to link multiple international databases together. Interpol has been doing that for years.

Your items 6. I would have to agree with you. You don't know too much about databases and it's obvious. Governments DO have top class security. And yes, they do have departments to handle all these. And Yes again, using taxpayers money. Probably the ARF you will spend when you buy your car. :wink:

Oh, one other thing...... Your item 7!

The world's not fair. Nobody ever claimed it was. Get used to it. Not all countries outlaw or try to apprehend Terrorists either. But it doesn't stop the remainder from trying to stop Terrorists does it. Aren't you glad? Kinda like a two way street ain't it!

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Postby Kurozu » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:07 pm

SMS,

Thank you for reminding me that I am ignorant in Database..... LOL

Strictly speaking, NSA did manage to monitor millions of email coming in and out of states. NSA got into trouble doing that. Furthermore, they did not even catch those terrorist who had links to 911. The NSA has data that is only strictly for terrorist. Those who are unknown get through the custom. Singapore, interpol, what ever agency has it too.

I will just take your word for it that sinpapore IT is better. But come on, will singapore government spent so much money on 1 teenager so that he will leave the country after 2 yrs of NS?

btw, maid using fake passport has nothing to do with this, is there a connection?

To screen out every single person in the world to catch 1 skinny pimple faced teenager for NS! And to treat them equally as terrorist!

Viva la Singapore!
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:28 pm

Whether or not they caught anybody or if they got into trouble for it is rather immaterial don't you think? Just how much trouble do you think it is? To set auto screening paramaters? You have antivirus software I would guess. Right? How do you think they catch the viruses before you do? How many emails does the antivirus software of Yahoo or Google catch hourly? #-o

the software databases contain all kinds of data and can be used for most anything. Don't you think Singapore maintains a database on all of it's citizens? It's already been done. Have you been in a cave for the past 10 years? The CPF board, IRAS, MOH, and shortly all medical records will be all linked together (only the Medical records are not yet linked, the other already are. Why do you think you only need one password to access them all?

You don't seem to be able to see the forest for the trees. Welcome to the new world. There is no such thing as privacy anymore. I'm almost 60 and I can understand it. Surely you can. As far as maid go, I'm just pointing out the the photo recognition software can be used for all kinds of things. Most of the newest security systems use either photo recognition, fingerprint recognition or retina scans for identity. How do you think they figure out if you are authorized? Databases.

You don't have a clue what info NSA has or what they can do.. I had a better opportunity as my ex-father-in-law actually worked for NSA as a GS 18 (as high as you can go in the US Civil Service supergrades) until his retirement and then went back as a double dipper consultant at Ft. Meade, Maryland.

Haven't you ever wondered how a lot of drug runners have gotten picked up at Changi?

Ah, nevermind, you've got a closed mind to the near future......

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Postby Kurozu » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:05 am

SMS.... it is not my closed mindness LOL ..... just that I do not see the need ....

I see the future, but I must also see the necessity behind it.

You said, ......
"The CPF board, IRAS, MOH, and shortly all medical record" I agreed should be connected by a large database to expediate the work, decrease work load etc. This is money well-spend.

You have many great examples, virus, terrorist, drugs runners, maids..... all these are necessary because they posed a threat. Again this is money well-spent for something that is logical

Not agreeing spending billions of dollars for a harmless teenager so that he can serve the NS does not prove that I "got a closed mind to the near future". It is just unnecessary. What threat does a teenager who did not even know Singapore? He is not even going back to defend Singapore when war really starts.

What next?
Build a database system so that we can catch a person whose DNA originate from Singapore? And later force him for NS? Yeah right.. This is the future.
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Postby Kurozu » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:13 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Haven't you ever wondered how a lot of drug runners have gotten picked up at Changi?


almost forgot about this.....

You got to be kidding me right? Are you trying to claim that Singapore custom can catch me with drugs by the way you are talking about? I thought the dogs sniff the drug out!!

Wow.... I am in the cave for 10 years.....
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 9:52 am

Kurozu wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:Haven't you ever wondered how a lot of drug runners have gotten picked up at Changi?


almost forgot about this.....

You got to be kidding me right? Are you trying to claim that Singapore custom can catch me with drugs by the way you are talking about? I thought the dogs sniff the drug out!!

Wow.... I am in the cave for 10 years.....


guess so...... The cave is pretty dark apparently. I'm not "trying to claim" anything. The information I am giving is from those who have used it.

My brother-in-law (well, not real sure if that is the correct term as he is married to my wife's Brother's wife's sister :? ) is a now retired DEA agent who was assigned to Singapore / SEAsia for 12 years. He retired here about 7 years ago (he's married to a Ex-SIA Stewardess) and is now a PR here. (He also has a security firm here) A large percentage of the drug pickups here are all courtesy of transmitted data from Thailand, US, and other countries all linked into the central DEA databases. The cooperation between the US and Singapore is very tight. The ones that are picked up normally by the dogs are the private users who are trying to make a buck to help pay for their own habits. The professional mules are usually sussed out before they even take off. The dogs only confirm the information already collected. The dogs don't sniff humans, only baggage. Not like in Aus where you stand in line and the dogs can smell you as well.

Oh, why would Singapore have to spend millions to catch a NS defaulter? The databases are already in place to collate the data of all citizens. It could be just another standing query to automatically flag anybody carrying a foreign passport with a Singaporean Parent in the biometric data....... The data would be scanned as it was being received from the sending country much the same as email is scanned.

:???:

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Postby Kurozu » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:47 am

Dear SMS,

I am 31years graduated from the top university in US, and blahblah... It does not make any difference who or how old I am...... does it? My old friend. I am talking to you as an equal. It is not necessary to bring down my point of view because of my age. And you do not have to prove that your point of view is right because of your old age either.

Anyway, I do not like to argue this way. This is not my way....

OK, Since we are not talking on the same page. I will go another way.

I will come out of the my bat cave and you should turn on the light for me.

You keep claiming that the government will catch a foreigner for NS. Well, can you prove it?
Thousands of Singaporeans migrated overseas ever since the declaration of Singapore independence, and there got to be 1 in your entire 60 years of history that can prove your point.

Now I will give 1 example why this catch-singaporean-turn-nationality-for-NS does not work.......
For instance, a baby who was born in Singapore, goes to Japan at 3month old, speak only Japanese. The parents died before they could ever change the baby citizenship. Now, he grow up being a Japanese, goes to Singapore for business trip, and because he is a Singaporean Born, he has to go to National Service without knowing his past? Do you really think that will happen?
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Postby Kurozu » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:54 pm

Dear Huggybear

I am bored at work too. Thank you for the articles. A little different from this situation, but it does make a very good argument. This has completely changed the whole argument. Melvin Tan has changed his nationality and he is still been charged. Oh my goodness!

In that case I will change my position and agree with SMS. The govt can break a family apart and force a person into national service (even though his nationality is different. Really Democratic!).

I thought Singapore Govt would not be that unreasonable to force foreigner into national service. It seems to me that I was wrong. Thank goodness that I was informed sooner than later. Sad to think that my kid cannot go back to visit my family.......

Well, Folks.... this was a good argument . SMS has won the argument, and I wish Singapore best of luck because you guys really need it.
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Postby huggybear » Wed, 14 Mar 2007 1:31 pm

brudder! don't think of it as "winning." just consider urself better informed (or seeing daylight after hibernating in the cave??)

with age comes experience. everything is really just a big cycle. Iraq could be compared to vietnam, sudan / rwanda could be compared with cambodia. current US environment draws parallels to mccarthyism...it's one reason why the movie "fog of war" was such a hit in the U.S. the current subprime mortgage implosion resembles the S&L crisis.

don't listen to the tone of the message. just listen to the message.

good luck brudder!!


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