My two sons (16 and 17 of age now), left Singapore before 11, have not renewed their Singapore passport beyond 11, apply for NRIC nor study in Singapore school. My husband and I have already renounced Singapore citizenship and we are Australians. Our sons took up Australian citizenships when they were before 11 years old together with us. They do not want to return to Singapore. If Australia has compulsory conscription, they would go because this is their home.sundaymorningstaple wrote:The only sticking point I can see will be the fact that the boy HAS enjoyed socio-economic benefit from Singapore as he is still using a Singapore Passport, which is the same has holding an NRIC.
I'm not too sure a lawyer can help but at least you will have explored all avenues that way. PHK I believe has a lawyer that they used who he's said was pretty knowledgeable.May_168 wrote: Last year, they applied deferment for NS pending renunciation of Singapore citizenship at 21. Their application was not considered at all, even a number of letters had been written. CMPB says that they have committed exit permit offence. Only after paying a fine of $800 each, they will then "consider" their eligibility for deferment and there is still no guarantee for being deferred either.
Our boys don’t wish to be unjustly treated as NS defaulters.
What should we do? Where should we get proper legal advice in Australia or Singapore?
May_168 wrote:My two sons (16 and 17 of age now), left Singapore before 11, have not renewed their Singapore passport beyond 11, apply for NRIC nor study in Singapore school. My husband and I have already renounced Singapore citizenship and we are Australians. Our sons took up Australian citizenships when they were before 11 years old together with us. They do not want to return to Singapore. If Australia has compulsory conscription, they would go because this is their home.sundaymorningstaple wrote:The only sticking point I can see will be the fact that the boy HAS enjoyed socio-economic benefit from Singapore as he is still using a Singapore Passport, which is the same has holding an NRIC.
Last year, they applied deferment for NS pending renunciation of Singapore citizenship at 21. Their application was not considered at all, even a number of letters had been written. CMPB says that they have committed exit permit offence. Only after paying a fine of $800 each, they will then "consider" their eligibility for deferment and there is still no guarantee for being deferred either.
Our boys don’t wish to be unjustly treated as NS defaulters.
What should we do? Where should we get proper legal advice in Australia or Singapore?
PHK wrote:May_168
With everything that you have done right, the exit permit laws were only changed a couple of years ago if I remember correctly, the obscure Singapore laws sure sound more like BS to me every single day.
None of us are attorney's but it looks like it is high time you got one that is very familiar with Singapore law, etc. You are free to find your own, I have sent you a PM of one that I found useful.
Let us all know how things work out for you, my goodness!
PHK, Thanks for the Attorney referral. I know of a case where the boy obtained deferment and without any fine. One parent still retained citizenship and the other parent a Singapore PR had given up the PR status and emptied CPF account totally. The boy left Singapore when he was in primary one. Look at May_68, both parents renounced citizenship and yet they are in this unfortunate predicament. The law does not spell out black and white and each case is reviewed individually under different circumstances. As such no one knows exactly what will happen until they have applied to CMPB.PHK wrote:Delgro,
I sent you a PM of the same attorney referral that I sent May_168. There are many other lawyers out there, for some reason they do not like to advertise that they specialize in NS matters, probably another one of those Singapore quirks.
In my experience, if either parent decides to hold on to the Singapore citizenship or PR, for any reason, then all hope is lost for deferment and / or exemption from Singapore NS.
In one recent case I know of personally, both parents submitted proof of new foreign citizenship along with their 2 son's but the mother refused to formally renounce with ICA, I think it was because she still jointly owned a flat in Singapore, and that was enough for MinDef to declare that they must serve as mother is still technically Singaporean. The Singapore government, via the report to MinDef knows of her new citizenship, yet they allow her to continue to jointly own the flat with her relative, keep money in the CPF, etc..
So the entire family flew to Singapore to fight it in person at MinDef and that was when parents and child were separated and videos taped interviews were taken and then MinDef had enough evidence against the parents that they were assisting the 2 son's from evading NS which is also a crime.
With MindDef armed with new ammunition against the parents, I hear both boys are getting ready to serve now without further dispute, one is a college freshman and the other is graduating high school, and both boy's will seize being Singapore citizens shortly after completing their NS. When things go that far, even if the mother now renounces her Singapore citizenship the boys are still obligated to serve. Its also interesting that the Singapore government allows the mother to hold dual nationality for over a year now, they must prefer that she keeps her money in CPF too.
So you have to follow all their rules...do not expect the Singapore government to follow any of the rules though as they get to make them up along the way... I hope this helps...
maysha wrote:PHK / SMS
Firstly - thank you both so much for all your voluntary time and effort in helping to provide some clarity on this sensitive and complex issue.
Your suggested guidelines are clear on whats needed but, at risk of repetition for you, I have few points of detail i would like to test your non-legal opinion on a tad further given our particular circumstances.
Background:
Father: british national - no sing PR of any kind ever
Mother: singapore national
Three children: two young girls (5 yrs and 2yrs), one boy 6 months old.
All 3 children born outside of Singapore.
All 3 children have British passports and Singapore passports.
We live overseas and have never lived as a family or married couple in Singapore.
Wife has CPF funded property
Wife and kids (including boy) visited singapore last month on their singapore pps for holiday.
We have accepted singapore cash grants for new children that relates to older girls but not for the boy.
Reason for getting singapore passports? emotional connection + stupid ignorance. We wanted kids to decide their own future (i.e. singapore or Uk) when they got older. Now we know it aint that simple for the boy.
I have 3 questions:
Given the very limited sing connection and early stage
1. - how important is it that the mother (and daughters i assume) rescind her/their singapore citizenship to get the consent? (the hardest pill in all this).
There is no reason for the girls to renounce until they reach the age of majority (21). After that, if they hold dual passports they are breaking the law in Singapore.
2. does it make that much difference in outcome to act now when the boy is so young or should we wait another 8 years and hope the law changes in our favour in the meantime (and obviously not renew passport, etc as per protocol)?
As long as the child doesn't have a valid Singapore Passport or NRIC after the age of 11 (possibly 13 but it's safer to use the old age of 11), hasn't attended Secondary School in Singapore, Has filed the necessary letter of intent as per guidelines with the various government agencies (via registered return receipt requested mail preferably so you have a record of delivery). Filed for the necessary exit permits and if necessary the bond (probably not required in this case) then again at the age of 16.5 go through the letter of intent AGAIN then you should be good to go. It seems like a lot, but if you really think about it, the only thing one really need to do is filing the letter of intent timely. The rest (provided the passport was gotten early enough, it should expire before the 11 birthday unless you made the mistake of carrying the kids the first couple of years on your Singapore passport. If that is the case then you would have to cancel his passport at the nearest Singapore Counsulate/Embassy before the age of 11 to be on the safe side - even if he doesn't travel on it, having it means he could.
3. have you ever heard of an instance where parents beg, plead mercy, pay fines and claim parental stupidy/ignorance and they then say - what the heck - the baby cant even crawl, is british, never born or lived here so does not have to keep citizenship at all (do i sound desperate)? If i was to try this long shot - which agency would be best to first approach?
The best way, is to follow protocol. Anything less is asking for grief. I can tell you are a Singaporean (no offense meant) but you are still wanting to gamble! After all you have read on these threads that we have accumulated you still want to treat it like a toto draw to see if the government changes the law? It's your kids future were are talking about.You have to decide if you want to hamstring his future movements by unilaterally deciding to renounce his Singaporean Citizenship or he will have to do NS because he is a Singapore Citizen. Whether or not the laws will change? Good Guess.
4. finally - mention is made from time to time of decent lawyers on the matter - can you suggest any contacts?
I think PHK may be able to help you there.
many thanks again.
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