exemption from national service

[PHK]

Waz,

I must say you are very lucky for if you pulled the same stunt as an American, the American Embassy Singapore may highlight to you the violation of terms and conditions under which a U.S. Passport is issued. If you use a foreign passport to travel out of the U.S. after being naturalized as an American citizen you may be fresh out of luck. Worst is to find out only when you return to JFK, they would know you are no longer an American Permanent Residence (PR) via your alien registration number, they would then question you traveling out with a foreign passport, and you would be looking at a nice expensive legal counsel to get you out of a lot of trouble.

Now this time when you leave Singapore with your kids and get back home, thank God they are still under 11, send in that registered intent to renounce citizenship at 21 letter to ICA and MinDef immediately with copies of their new naturalization / citizenship certificates, and passports. (Since you are visiting Singapore, it might not be a bad idea to get duplicate copies of their Singapore birth certificates now, in case the original is ever lost, as they may not give it them once they are no longer Singapore citizens too).

Follow through with the exit permit and deferment requirements too, after mailing in the registered intent to renounce Singapore citizenship letter at age 21, please do NOT ever trust MinDef.

A lesson here for everybody, order the new origin citizenship passports immediately and be sure to renew them well before 6 months before their expiry (in case of emergency travel) as then they may not allow you to enter certain countries.

Good luck and thanks for letting us know. Thank GOD!

[waz]

PHK

Thanks again.

I am already back in Oz.

The thing with Oz rule, you can use any passport to exit. But to reenter, without a visa, u need to prove you are an Aussie Citizen - by producing the Aussie passport. I've read on other sites that there are people that manage to reenter by using the citizen cert. But at a considerable delay at the airport (coz cert has no photo) and irked the immigration people.

My son just turn 8. So I guess I have at max 2 years to relax before putting in the letter of intent to ICA and Mindef. Or should I do this now?
For the address, was it posted in this discussion? If yes, I shall check the thread.

BTW, my vacation in Singapore was not that enjoyable apart from meeting family and relatives. I sort of use the lifestyle at my "new home".

Cheers

[PHK]

Waz,

It is my pleasure, we should all assist each other. May I suggest that in light of your new citizenship that you and your wife renounce Singapore citizenship now, get your CPF savings out free and clear, and then send the registered letter for your son(s), intent to renounce Singapore citizenship at age 21 with a request for the required exit pass and deferment. The addresses are in my 9 July 08 posting on the previous page.

In the U.S. you use to be able to go to Canada, Mexico and some of the Caribbean with just a birth / citizenship certificate and a photo identification. However, due to the 9/11 induced Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) you now need a international passport book or the optional passport card (limited for land and sea border crossings only from Canada, Mexico and some of the Caribbean). If you are dual citizen but an American, especially one that was naturlized, than you may have legal headache with the terms and conditions for applying for a first- issue U.S. Passport after you have become an American Citizen and are overseas. It was nice that Australia is so easy and relaxed for your case.

However, some of the border states like New York State have now implemented a state enhanced driver license that has a embedded chip that is equivalent to a U.S. Passport for land and sea border crossing only.

I am really glad things worked out well for you, I am visiting Singapore right now, with my wife and son, and it does not exactly fit in for me anymore either.

Take care!

[Johnny3]

Let me tell my (current) story as a warning. Any advice gratefully received.

I am a UK national, my wife Singaporean. My son, now aged 14.5 holds both nationalities. He was born in the UK, been to school in the UK, and only visited Singapore 4 times for short trips of about 2 weeks.

His application to defer NS pending renounciation of citizenship at age 21 has been turned down. I suspect this is because he used his Singapore passport to travel to Malaysia when aged 11. [Things you would do differently if you had your time again; no reason why he couldn't have used his British passport for this trip].

Further more, he currently has no exit permit. The rules changed since we were last in Singapore, and we have only recently become aware of them. MinDef have advised that he travels to Singapore as soon as possible to put right his NS offences.

I should say that in principle I have no objection to him serving NS in Singapore, it is just that it makes it very difficult here with schooling, univserity etc where people are just not geared up for young people taking a 2 year break.

So here is our dilema. Do we travel to Singapore to apply for an exit permit and hope that the Singapore authorities are fair and let him leave the country again, do we ignore everything and be resigned to the fact that he won't be able to visit Singapore again, or do we continue to try to get deferment from NS?

Any thoughts?

Here is my story, hope it helps:

3 kids with me here in the US, eldest son born in Singapore, left Singapore when he was 11 months old. So he never benefitted from any Singapore education or anything else, except using his SIngapore passport. His passport expired before he is 11, of course not knowing any details, since these poilicies are not well known, I like a dum dum, extended his passport. Got 2 year extension of which he never used his passport anyway. So in 2006, we all became US Citizens. I applied for him to renounce his Singapore citizenship, denied by Mindef as they say he benefitted from being a Singapore Citizen. Hence the saga starts.

After a few e-mails and letters, found out that the passport extension was the key. Consulted some school mate lawyers, wrote back to Mindef that the "fault of ther father should not bind the future of the son". Still no cigar. I wrote and wrote and this even included the Minister of Defence.

Wife and I divorced in 2006 and she renounced her Singapore Citizenship. Sent in more paperwork and asked for appeal again for deferment to renouce his citizenship. Again denied. Then talked to few families in California undergoing similar problems. Was told that precedents have been set that if both parents give up their Singapore Citizenship, thus showing that they are severing ties with Singapore, then MINDEF will grant deferment to renounce. CAVEAT IS son must be below 18 years old when this happens.

Did not want to give up my Singapore Citizenship, since no one would take it away. Talked to ICA and they told me many Singaporeans living overseas have dual citizenships. Officially you should not, but the govt does not want to lose talented Singaporeans. Anyway asked Mindef point blank if this was the case, they of course simply said that my appeal was denied.

Finally after 2 years of tussling with MINDEF, I walked a difficult path to give up my Singapore Citizenship for the sake of my son. FINALLY, sent in my de-registration of being a Singapore Citizen to MINDEF and then they finally agreed to let him go. Letter provided to say that they attached an updated exit permit for him for 2 years. When he turns 16.5 years, they will send up paperwork for him to register for NS, at that time they will then give him an exit permit until he is 21 and then he must renounce his citizenship. Hope this helps out to those reading this board.

[sundaymorningstaple]

So you are confirming what I've been saying for over two years here. Thanks for a first hand account. Now maybe some of the yo-yo's will listen. I've always said that the parents MUST be fully aware of what they do when immigrating because their lack of investigation/foresight can have very long term consequences.

It's a shame you and so many more have had to endure a country so full of myopia as this one. Each of the cases like this that come to light, causes many more to want to escape this country for good. Really can't say as I blame them.

[puddles888]

Hi, i hope this will be of useful advise for you. Your best bet would be to contact the Singapore embassy in the UK and they will give you the answer you are hoping for. I dont want to get your hopes up but you will be pleased with what they are going to tell you; if things hant changed in the last 5 years, that is.

Ex citizen.

[mayasg]

I have left Singapore for a couple of years recently i remembered that i have forgotten that i need to renew my exit permit thus i wrote to NS portal on my exit permit matters. They wrote back to warn me that i must go back to Singapore to resolve my outstanding matters and asked me to advise them on my flight so that there won't be any embarrassment at the custom. They mentioned that i have been without a permit since 2005 but it was not possible as then i did apply and a lady also wrote an email to notify me. Back then the email was miw.com.sg but now it is starnet.gov.sg thus i am very confused. They warn me the result will be jail term of not more than 3years and a fine not more than 10K. To be honest i have failed in my business while i was in Singapore and have no home and now barely surving on a mere income, where in the world will i have 10K to pay the fine and i guess if i don't then jail term will be waiting for me. What should i do? Please can anyone be kind enough to advise me on this matter.

[PHK]

This discussion has focused primarily on those that have or will have foreign citizenship and need to be exempt from Singapore NS.

If you are still Singaporean, have no plans for obtaining foreign citizenship, than I suggest you work with MinDef to sort this out amicably, plea for mercy, and see what they will do for you. Either that or be an NS defaulter and see what the future holds for you...

Having said all that, we have some great advice above if you are seeking to become exempt based on gaining foreign citizenship. That is a different matter than what you have asked us.

Good luck!

[mayasg]

This discussion has focused primarily on those that have or will have foreign citizenship and need to be exempt from Singapore NS.

If you are still Singaporean, have no plans for obtaining foreign citizenship, than I suggest you work with MinDef to sort this out amicably, plea for mercy, and see what they will do for you. Either that or be an NS defaulter and see what the future holds for you...

Having said all that, we have some great advice above if you are seeking to become exempt based on gaining foreign citizenship. That is a different matter than what you have asked us.

Good luck!

i also hope to get citizenship and renouce this status. being a singaporean is too tired. if you have any good suggestion please advise. thanks

[PHK]

Tell us:

1. Your current age, your posting details seem beyond being just a teenager age

2. Are your parents still Singaporean, and if so, will they also be renouncing Singapore Citizenship

3. The country that you will be adopting, how long will it take from now for you to become its citizen, etc.

4. At what age did you leave Singapore and where were you born

Mind you that none of us are attorney's and none of this is legal advice.

[MikedeLeonJones]

Hey guys,

I'm Mike, I'm 14+, turning 15 on 22Nov. I was born in Singapore to Singaporean parents. I've been thinking of moving to the US after O levels in which I will either be 16/17 when I move since a few years ago. I didn't even realise all this important stuffs, about skipping NS stuffs,and I doubt my parents even know they exist ( exaggeration, but yeah).
The thing is that my parents refuse to move together with me. And I'm planning to get US citizenship, and everything.

I need advices on how to prevent all these insane problems from happening, etc, should I not take IC (stupid idea ),etc.

[sundaymorningstaple]

If you are already 14 it doesn't matter whether you take your NRIC or not. You have already enjoyed the socio-economic benefits of Singapore in their eyes, e.g., you have been in Secondary School. So you are already committed. There is nothing you can do except be a deserter. Your parents will love you for that. On second thought, why don't you start growing some cojones and be a man and do your duty. We don't want any of your kind in the US, I can tell you that. We want men who won't shirk their duty when the time comes to send you to afganistan or Iran or Iraq! You will get conscripted there as well if the idiots in Washington have their say about it. Then you will be between a rock and a hard place. Actually, that's what your kind need. something to knock the snivelling baby into manhood.

[PHK]

MikedeLeonJones:

I am not fond of NS but I am much less fond of breaking the law and it appears that if you do not serve you will be a deserter and that is just not right.

I have an American born son who does not plan to serve anywhere, and he is not required to do so. However, if the world situation and laws of our land the U.S. required it, and he was asked to serve, I know he would do so willingly.

The military is not for everybody, if you are worried about NS for conscientious observer reasons or something, than why not explore legal options such as civil defense, etc. These are legal avenues available if you cooperate and make an effort.

Also, it takes years to become an American Citizen, the visa process alone is mind boggling at times. You will even be required to go to the Singapore Police, be fingerprinted, and obtain a good conduct certificate for the American Embassy. Once you are in the U.S., with the given economy, you must be a law abiding and self-reliant productive person. With all the unemployment forecast for the next 3-4 years, being a self-reliant productive person for an immigrant no less will become much harder... not that I do not think you can do it.

Best to go through life NOT looking back all the time and knowing that you can visit your parents as needed. We know you will find a way to do the right thing, good luck!

[MikedeLeonJones]

Hey PHK,

I've recieved your PM, and since I'm not able to reply as of yet, I've decided to post it here.

First of all, I thank you for the time taken to say what you have just said. Believe me, I appreciate it. (: Haha, okay, before anything, I just want to say that its not that I want to skip NS just for the fact that I don't wanna go through it, but I have other reasons. Well, I'm in NCC, so I kind of know what to expect in a few years time, so that's kinda good.

And yeah, I was also thinking about it a few days ago. No matter what, I', still adamant about moving to the US. But now, I feel that it is only right that I serve NS. And because of that, I've decided to not continue my studies for awhile after 'o' levels, and get a job, while waiting for the NS registeration letter. And once I get it, I will immediately register for it (:

So that means, I would enter NS at the age of 16 1/2 or so, and after I end it, I would be peace at mind to leave the country.

Just wondering though, I want you guys' thoughts. Do you think its a good idea though?

[PHK]

MikedeLeonJone,

I certainly do not know the specifics of Singapore NS but I do think you are on the right track on getting NS out of the way and then leave the country.

While I do not know how you plan to immigrate to the U.S., this is not right forum to discuss it either, I always tell young people not to take their education lightly either.

An American employer will expect at a bare minimum a high school diploma, that is an "A" level for you I believe, and almost everybody now days seems to at least have a Bachelor's degree in the U.S. It is easier and cheaper to get a degree in the U.S. (if you at least have PR / green card), plenty of community and public colleges too.

Go where ever you want in life but first get your NS commitment out of the way (this forum is for expats to discuss the legal options to be exempt from Singapore NS for their son's mostly). Finish you NS and be a good self-reliant successful person and make your parents proud. Good luck!