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exemption from national service

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888max
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Postby 888max » Wed, 23 Jul 2008 8:34 pm

This is a very good example if your sons remain overseas without a exit permit regardless whether they left sg before age 11 yrs..
Your sons will be charge , some even get a jail sentance . His future will be jeopardize.

And the worst part is , you still have to serve back 2yrs of NS back to them before you're allow to renounce your sg citizenship.

Be very careful !! 8-)

*************************************************************
SINGAPORE-BORN Shantakumar Bannirchelvam spent most of the last decade living with his family in Australia.

The 19-year-old Australian citizen, however, returned to his birthplace last September to enlist as a full-time national serviceman (NSF).

But Shantakumar was fined $1,500 yesterday for remaining outside Singapore without an exit permit.

The sentence came after prosecutors appealed against an earlier decision that let him off with probation and community service.

Judge of Appeal V.K.Rajah commended the teenager yesterday for coming back to serve in the military. But 'as a matter of policy and precedent', a fine must be handed down, he said.

The $1,500 fine was half the benchmark of $3,000, and took into account Shantakumar's 33 hours of community service, he said.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NOTE:
{Shantakumar, who now holds dual citizenship, first received a letter from the Defence Ministry telling him to register for full-time national service in May 2005, and he did so.}

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He then headed to the United States on an exchange programme.

Meanwhile, his father tried repeatedly to defer his enlistment, but though he was unsuccessful, Shantakumar continued with his US studies without an exit permit.

In September last year, he returned to Singapore, and was subsequently charged with staying away from the country without an exit permit between 2005 and last year.

In February this year, Shantakumar pleaded guilty to the charge under the Enlistment Act.

A district judge, who called him a 'promising young man with a bright future ahead' decided not to record a conviction against him.

She put him on six months' probation and ordered him to do 40 hours of community service.

But prosecutors appealed, saying the district judge was wrong to depart from the usual punishment.

Yesterday, Shantakumar, who is now doing his Basic Military Training, said he hoped to make it to Officer Cadet School. He was worried that the conviction would count against him in the selection process.

chopin_88
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Postby chopin_88 » Tue, 05 Aug 2008 3:15 am

woah shit man xD so is it true that it is so difficult to enter singapore if someone has left the country before the age of 11 ? so stupid ah, then my poor friend can probably never go back or what..
because he left singapore very early I think when he was 10 or something. no exit permit nothing, but my friend very solid siah he dare to go to singapore but I always warn him lah that he will be arrested, he is 20 now and has not been nback yet:D:D:
problem eh?

PHK
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Exit permit, why?

Postby PHK » Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:01 pm

With all due respect, requiring a male foreign born child who vacated Singapore before his 11th birthday, attended only International School's, never collected a pink IC, and does not hold a valid Singapore Passport (and even the mother is no longer a Singapore citizen) to obtain an exit permit after they have already legally left the country or face criminal charges is the equivalent of requiring a deceased person to register to vote.

Come on, please don't be stupid Singapore... you can waive your flag, proclaim your soverentity and success as a nation too, but do not forget that your school's until not too long were teaching the young that Singapore fought for its independence and obtained it from the British...

Its the American's that will certanly defend Singapore land, treating foreigners in a reckless non-sense manner just will not fly... get a grip on reality please.

RichardUK
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Singapore/UK dual national and NS

Postby RichardUK » Wed, 27 Aug 2008 6:50 am

Let me tell my (current) story as a warning. Any advice gratefully received.

I am a UK national, my wife Singaporean. My son, now aged 14.5 holds both nationalities. He was born in the UK, been to school in the UK, and only visited Singapore 4 times for short trips of about 2 weeks.

His application to defer NS pending renounciation of citizenship at age 21 has been turned down. I suspect this is because he used his Singapore passport to travel to Malaysia when aged 11. [Things you would do differently if you had your time again; no reason why he couldn't have used his British passport for this trip].

Further more, he currently has no exit permit. The rules changed since we were last in Singapore, and we have only recently become aware of them. MinDef have advised that he travels to Singapore as soon as possible to put right his NS offences.

I should say that in principle I have no objection to him serving NS in Singapore, it is just that it makes it very difficult here with schooling, univserity etc where people are just not geared up for young people taking a 2 year break.

So here is our dilema. Do we travel to Singapore to apply for an exit permit and hope that the Singapore authorities are fair and let him leave the country again, do we ignore everything and be resigned to the fact that he won't be able to visit Singapore again, or do we continue to try to get deferment from NS?

Any thoughts?

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Re: Singapore/UK dual national and NS

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 27 Aug 2008 1:50 pm

RichardUK wrote:His application to defer NS pending renounciation of citizenship at age 21 has been turned down. I suspect this is because he used his Singapore passport to travel to Malaysia when aged 11. [Things you would do differently if you had your time again; no reason why he couldn't have used his British passport for this trip].

Any thoughts?


The reason he was turned down is because the parents did not, and I have stressed this over and over for the past 3 years on this board, read the requirements of the Singapore government. I know it doesn't help, as hindsight is always 20-20. But, it is not because he traveled to Malaysia on his Singapore pass, it is because he had a valid Singapore passport after reaching the age of 11. He may have NEVER USED the Singapore passport at all. Just having a valid one after the age of 11 made him eligible for NS. It's is the same as having an NRIC.

While I am not in favour of the Singapore laws, and think they are absolutely silly, they are, in fact, the law.

It is time, I think, to get your son involved in the discussions. It's his future that has been screwed up by not doing the homework before hand. I think he should have some say in determining his future by you laying all the card on the line. With the current case making the news at the moment with the 3 Norwegian brothers here, I don't think you are going to have much success in getting around the law.

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Re: Singapore/UK dual national and NS

Postby jpatokal » Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:04 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:With the current case making the news at the moment with the 3 Norwegian brothers here, I don't think you are going to have much success in getting around the law.

Pointer for those (like me) who missed it:

http://blog.simplyjean.com/2008/08/26/o ... cpf-money/
Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 28 Aug 2008 7:26 am

good job JP! I forgot that most would not BE IN SINGAPORE so probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to know about it. Call it a d'oh! moment

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Postby andy21 » Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:34 am

Much has been said about how terribly the Singapore government handles the issue of citizenship renunciation for males with regards the National Service issue.

I wonder though, if anyone knows how other countries with military conscription handles similar issues, maybe countries like South Korea or Israel.

Maybe I (and many like myself) are unfairly bashing the government in this regard? Maybe these other governments handle the issue in far worse fashion than this one?

PHK
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Postby PHK » Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:13 pm

Wow... I sure appreciate the great information here and I am treading very carefully through this process.

While I am happy that we did not renew my son's Singapore Passport, however, how does one get a child out of Singapore to be exempt from NS, before the 11 birthday, if the child is +10.5 years of age, when they insist on 6 months validity of a Singapore Passport at immigration to exit.

It would be very hard to make a Singapore Passport expire just before the 11th birthday. You can make sure you do not renew it, you can make sure you do not collect a Pink IC, and even be out of the country prior to the 11th birthday, but for most it would be next to impossible to have it expire before the 11th birthday.

Now MinDef will use that little technicality, a Singapore Passport expiring after the 11th birthday, to claim that your child enjoyed the social economic benefits of citizenship and must serve NS before the renunciation of citizenship will be approved. Otherwise, as a NS defaulter, criminal charges will be filed against your child.

Boy oh boy, Singapore! My God.............. scarry!

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Postby waz » Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:42 pm

I have a son. He is 8 now. Moved overseas when he was still in kindy, almost 3 years ago. Now studying at an overseas primary school.

We acquire a foreign citizenship. However his Singapore passport still valid. He can't renounce until at least 21 as per the Singapore law.

Which specific department at Mindef do I need to call to discuss about needing an exit permit and intention to renounce at 21. A phone number will be appreciated if anyone here knows.

Thanks
I work to live and not live to work.

RichardUK
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Re: Singapore/UK dual national and NS

Postby RichardUK » Sat, 06 Sep 2008 5:27 pm

"Just having a valid one after the age of 11 made him eligible for NS. It's is the same as having an NRIC."

Unfortunately the Sing High Comm in London extended his passport for 3 months - yes that's all, just 3 months beyond his 11th birthday. And I checked, I was mistaken about using the passport, it was only used to return to Singapore. Of course, if we'd realised the implications at the tim then we would not have renewed it.

"It is time, I think, to get your son involved in the discussions."

Well he can't see himself doing NS, but he isn't really old enough to decide the course of action now. MinDef just tell him to return to Singapore ASAP without saying whether they'll ever let him leave again. Remember he has *never* lived in Singapore, not even born there, in the middle of his GCSE courses. What exactly do they expect parents to advise their children to do??

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 06 Sep 2008 5:28 pm

waz,

Did you think about cutting up his passport and sending it back to the Singapore government? Before he turns 11 or 13 I think it is now (but better not to take that chance). There is not a problem with having citizenship, just a problem of having an NRIC or Valid Passport. If you destroy it (but not burning) by cutting it up, and sending it back to the government you shoud be able to say that your son did not have a valid passport past the age of 11.

PHK,

If a parent waits until a child's passport is less than 6 months from expiry and 10.5 years old and only then finds out, then I'd say, if the child hates you later, he will have every right to as you procrastinated at his expense.

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Exemption from Singapore NS

Postby PHK » Sat, 06 Sep 2008 7:08 pm

While I am not an attorney, this is not legal advice, but if you would like to know-

Exemption from Singapore NS critical information:

1. Get you son's out of Singapore before their 11th birthday (age 13 is unconfirmed)

2. Then send a registered letter, with postcard return receipt for yourself, to ICA declaring intention to renounce child's citizenship at age 21

3. Make sure the Singapore Passport expires before the 11th birthday and/or include it with the registered letter for cancellation / surrender. Personally I would not alter the passport, expired or valid, as that in itself may be regarded as a criminal offense latter.

4. Never ever collect a Pink IC or renew a Singapore Passport past the 11th birthday

5. Apply online for an Exit Permit within 3 months of the 13th birthday (even though you have allowed the Singapore Passport to expire or had it canceled / surrendered before the 11th birthday)

6. Register for NS at age 16.5 (or age 17?) and ask for a deferment to age 21 when renunciation can be made

7. If either parent is a PR or Singapore Citizen, assuming that you too have left Singapore, then they too should renounce your PR or citizenship as soon as possible and collect their hard earned CPF savings

8. Renounce the son's Singapore Citizenship on the 21st birthday making sure that a foreign citizenship has been secured first using their special renunciation form that needs to be notarized and is not available on the ICA web site. Do NOT allow your son's to visit Singapore even on a foreign passport until you have the renunciation acceptance letter.

9. Keep up with changes in the law. Never ever trust ICA or MidDef, do not communicate with them in writing in any way that could be construed as assisting a potential NS defaulter in a court of law latter, beware as they will use all technicalities available. I am sure they are reading this too. Good luck!

waz
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Postby waz » Sun, 07 Sep 2008 6:20 am

Thanks PHK

My only concern as per your listed point is my sons passport.

His passport will only expire in 2012 which is when he is 12 years old. Pass that 11 year old mark,


And sending a letter to ICA? To which department would that be?
I work to live and not live to work.

888max
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Re: Exemption from Singapore NS

Postby 888max » Sun, 07 Sep 2008 12:36 pm

PHK wrote:While I am not an attorney, this is not legal advice, but if you would like to know-

Exemption from Singapore NS critical information:

1. Get you son's out of Singapore before their 11th birthday (age 13 is unconfirmed)

Ans: Correct.

2. Then send a registered letter, with postcard return receipt for yourself, to ICA declaring intention to renounce child's citizenship at age 21

Ans: If your son failed to aquire another citizenship first before coming to them, ICA will not even want to entertain you at all.

3. Make sure the Singapore Passport expires before the 11th birthday and/or include it with the registered letter for cancellation / surrender. Personally I would not alter the passport, expired or valid, as that in itself may be regarded as a criminal offense latter.

Ans: Correct.

4. Never ever collect a Pink IC or renew a Singapore Passport past the 11th birthday

Ans: Correct.

5. Apply online for an Exit Permit within 3 months of the 13th birthday (even though you have allowed the Singapore Passport to expire or had it canceled / surrendered before the 11th birthday)

Ans: Yet again if you failed to get 'green light' from ICA or mindef, you'll need to place a surety bonds S$75k/son before they issue your son any exit permits. For this case, online application is NOT allow here.

6. Register for NS at age 16.5 (or age 17?) and ask for a deferment to age 21 when renunciation can be made

Ans: Usually if you get deferment for your son from age 13yrs, your son will get to defer from NS duty till he renounces SG citiznehsip at age 21. If you failed to get it for your son at 13yrs, chance will be they WILL NOT grant him any further extension of exit permits at age 16yrs anymore.

7. If either parent is a PR or Singapore Citizen, assuming that you too have left Singapore, then they too should renounce your PR or citizenship as soon as possible and collect their hard earned CPF savings

Ans: Up to individual.

8. Renounce the son's Singapore Citizenship on the 21st birthday making sure that a foreign citizenship has been secured first using their special renunciation form that needs to be notarized and is not available on the ICA web site. Do NOT allow your son's to visit Singapore even on a foreign passport until you have the renunciation acceptance letter.

Ans: If you failed to secure a exit permit at age 13 yrs for your son to remain overseas, chance that they will 'force' your son to serve his 2yrs NS liabilty.

9. Keep up with changes in the law. Never ever trust ICA or MidDef, do not communicate with them in writing in any way that could be construed as assisting a potential NS defaulter in a court of law latter , beware as they will use all technicalities available. I am sure they are reading this too.


Ans: Talk to them. It is through 'proper communication' that you know where your son position stand. I did just that, follow their rules & now my 2 sons gotton their NS deferrment & exit permit with no problem at all. Best is no surety bonds for them. :wink:

Good luck!


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