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exemption from national service

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Vanda
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Postby Vanda » Mon, 11 Feb 2008 7:47 pm

Wondering of anyone knows a good lawyer who can correctly advise on the exemption of NS obligation anf renounciation of citizenship---in our case the baby wont live in Singapore and wont take any socio economic benefits from the Govt

Thanks!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Feb 2008 7:45 am

Vanda,

You don't need a lawyer. All you have to do it follow the easy things to do that have already been listed in links in these threads on this subject. You need to have him out of the country before the age of 11 or 13 (11 to be safe). You need to inform the Government of your intentions of renunciation at the age of 17 in writing. You need to ensure that you don't renew or let him keep a passport beyond the age of 11 or 13). You need to also register & notify Mindef at 16.5 years of age as well. So if you are planning on immigrating you need to ensure that you will be able to obtain citizenship prior to the male child reaching that age (11 or 13). Even if you do obtain citizenship it doesn't matter unless you notify the respective government agencies timely. Then, once the child reaches 21, you file for formal renunciation.

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Postby Vanda » Tue, 12 Feb 2008 2:59 pm

Thanks so much for your reply...have a few comments in CAPS BELOW:


You don't need a lawyer. All you have to do it follow the easy things to do that have already been listed in links in these threads on this subject. You need to have him out of the country before the age of 11 or 13 (11 to be safe).

[VANDA COMMENT: WILL GET HIM OUT OF THE COUNTRY BEFORE 11; HOWEVER, IS THERE ANY ANY OFFICIAL LINE PRINTED BY MINDEF/CMPB/MFA SINGAPORE WHICH SAYS THAT DEFERMENT OF NS IS PERMITTED IF BABY GETS OUT OF SINGAPORE BY 11 AND DOESNT TAKE ANY NS OBLIGATIONS? ALL THE PREVIOUS LINKS LISTED ON THIS FORUM HAVE EXPIRED...WONDERING IF THERE IS ANYTHING RECENT PUBLISHED BY ANY OF THE SINGAPORE AGENCIES?

VM COMMENT: ALSO, WHAT CONSTITUTES TAKING "SOCIO ECONOMIC BENEFITS"? IS THERE A LIST ISSUED BY THE SINGAPORE GOVT AGENCIES?

You need to inform the Government of your intentions of renunciation at the age of 17 in writing. You need to ensure that you don't renew or let him keep a passport beyond the age of 11 or 13).

VM COMMENT: WOULD BE OBLIGED IF YOU COULD DIRECT ME TO THE RESOURCE WHICH MENTIONS GIVING UP PASSPORT BY 11 OR 13? I DONT THINK HOLDING PASSPORT CONSTITUTES SOCIO ECONOMIC BENEFIT BUT HOLDING AN IC DOES...

VM COMMENT: I HAVE AN ADDITIONAL DIFFICULTY HERE...I AM AN INDIAN. INDIAN LAWS DO NOT PERMIT DUAL CITIZENSHIP AND BABY CANT HOLD INDIAN PASSPORT IF HE ISNT INDIAN. THEREFORE NO CHOICE BUT TO TAKE SINGAPORE PASSPORT...IF BABY DOESNT RENEW PASSPORT BEYOND AGE OF 11 OR 13, HE CANNOT TRAVEL OVERSEAS UNTIL HE RENOUNCES CITIZENSHIP...THIS SEEMS IMPRACTICAL...

You need to also register & notify Mindef at 16.5 years of age as well. So if you are planning on immigrating you need to ensure that you will be able to obtain citizenship prior to the male child reaching that age (11 or 13). Even if you do obtain citizenship it doesn't matter unless you notify the respective government agencies timely. Then, once the child reaches 21, you file for formal renunciation.[/quote]

VM COMMENT: AGAIN UNDER INDIAN LAWS, DUAL CITIZENSHIP ISNT RECOGNIZED-THEREFORE BABY CAN ONLY TAKE UP INDIAN CITIZENSHIP ONCE HE RENOUNCES SINGAPORE CITIZENSHIP...I CAN DEFINITELY FILE A LETTER OF INTENT WITH INDIAN GOVT AND SINGAPORE AUTHORITIES, BUT WILL BABY BE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH NS OBLIGATIONS BEFORE HE TAKES UP INDIAN CITIZENSHIP AND RENOUNCES SINGAPOREAN CITIZENSHIP?

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOME CONCRETE DATA POINTS ON ALL OF THE ABOVE ISSUES.

WOULD BE EXTREMELY GRATEFUL IF SOMEONE CAN HELP!

THANKS A LOT

VANDA

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Feb 2008 5:08 pm

Vanda,

Any particular reason you are shouting in your message? (all caps normally means raising your voice or shouting.) :-|

To be honest you are going to have to pick up the phone and call the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to get a blow by blow. The revamped websites have changed their guidelines as to the ages (11 to 13) due to the new biometric passports and their cost. It also means now a child must apply for an exit permit once they are 13 and if they are going to be out of the country more than 2 years the parents must apply for a bond. It also means that no matter when you get the first passport for the child it will expire at 10 years or at the age of 11 which ever comes first. After that the child will need a exit permit from Mindef.

The details that we have gleaned from multiple posters and users who have made phone calls have helped to piece together the data. The government is not going to post step by step instruction on how to avoid NS. Frankly I don't blame them. It is the onus of the parents to do their homework when the child was born and stay on top of it until renunciation was complete. Anyway, I said it all before. Below is bits and pieces and notes. Most you will have already seen I am sure but at least it's all in one place now.
________________________________________________________

http://www.singaporeexpats.com/forum/su ... rey#287240

As this was initially in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs old website, I would think a call to the same ministsry would probably give you the same information with the possible exception that the age was changed to 13 (as the age to get an exit permit from MINDEF is now 13 as well. The following link will confirm that.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_a ... 06_fs.html

http://www.ns.sg/nsPortal/appmanager/ns ... ity=ENLIST

This taken from: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_t ... _1017.html

Note that Singapore does not recognize dual nationality beyond the age of 21, and it strictly enforces universal national service (NS) for all male citizens and permanent residents. Male U.S. citizens who automatically acquired Singaporean citizenship and continue to reside in Singapore are liable for Singapore national service once they reach the age of 18. Travel abroad of Singaporean males may require Singapore Government approval as they approach national service age and may be restricted when they reach sixteen-and-a-half years of age. Under Singaporean law, an individual who automatically acquires Singaporean citizenship at birth retains that status even after acquiring the citizenship of another country, including U.S. citizenship. Males may renounce Singaporean citizenship only after having completed at least two years of national service. U.S. citizenship are subject to this law. Dual nationals, Singapore Permanent Residents, and their parents should contact the Ministry of Defense in Singapore to determine if there will be a national service obligation. For additional information, please see the Bureau of Consular Affairs’ web site for our dual nationality flyer, and contact the Ministry of Defense Central Manpower Base (tel. 65-6373-3127), or visit http://www.ns.sg/nsPortal/appmanager/ns ... ity=ENLIST.

National-service-liable males who migrated from Singapore before age 11 and have not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits of citizenship (e.g., applied for a Singapore identity card or studied in Singapore beyond the age of 11) are allowed to renounce their Singapore citizenship if they do not wish to fulfill their NS obligations. They will be required to register for national service with Central Manpower Base and apply for deferment from full-time NS until the age of 21, pending the renunciation of their Singapore citizenship. They can continue to make short social visits to Singapore and will not be required to serve NS if they renounced their citizenship at age 21.


http://www.mfa.gov.sg/newyork-consul/renuncitizen.html

The above link is a good one as well. :( If you get the renunciation package an completely fill it out as required and they reject it, you are as good as finished. They have enough information to pick you up as you come through immigration.

http://app.mfa.gov.sg/2006/idx_consular ... p?web_id=1
_________________________________________________________

With regard to India's laws on dual citizenship, Singapore really doesn't care and because it is a sovereign nation, it is not beholden to anybody else so really doesn't care what India's laws are nor more than they care about Indonesia's or the US's for that matter. The trouble is just that people want to try to avoid NS but want to be able to come back to Singapore at some point in the future without doing their obligations. As a parent, one has to thing about the long term future........

Yes, there are those who fall through the cracks into no-man's land. These you cannot expect to find answers to on a forum. You need to talk to the horse and not 3rd party hearsay.

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Re: Anyone knows of a good lawyer ?

Postby primitivo » Sun, 24 Feb 2008 2:43 am

NSProblem wrote:When he turned 21 they accepted his renunciation.
NSProblem


That may be the rare encouraging information here. Did you post a bond for him? What happened to the bond? If the bond is gone, then I think law is broken in certain way.

What is his situation now?

PS: we got our son Singapore citizen at 5 and left within a month. he never return afterwards. Singapore government still wants his service.

Thanks

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problems renouncing sg citizenship too...

Postby jac_00 » Mon, 24 Mar 2008 8:12 pm

i have just encountered similar problems and now currently in the process of discussing with CMPB about this issue.
My brother in law also grew up in Europe since 1-2 mths old and apparently when he just renounced his citizenship at the age of 22, his application has been witheld. After speaking to an ex colonel, he said that he has been now classified as a NS defaulter under CMPB's data base and thus even if he has european passport and had not got his NRIC, renewed his passport etc, he might be arrested at the airport. This is because he is still a Singapore citizen.

I was given a reply by CMPB to notify an officer about his flight details (cos i wrote in to ask if there would be any trouble if he visited singapore for summer holidays). I can't get hold of that guy for the moment, so am just gonna call till then.

The strange thing about this whole incident is that my mother in law had spoken to the Brussels Embassy about renouncing his citizenship and was told my the officer there that he could only do so after 21. My hubby did that and he had NO PROBLEMS to renounce it.( My hubby was above 21 years of age)
About 1.5 years later, when my brother in law is renouncing it now, they are witholding his application.

I seriously am thinking that the embassies have little or poor information about the process. And this is getting to be a big headache for us all....
Its irritating cos when we called ICA, we were told to speak to CMPB directly through an email.

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Appreciate advice / guidance

Postby PHK » Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:14 pm

Parents:
Father: Resigned Singapore PR
Mother: Renounced Singapore Citizenship
We have only 1 child

Our son:
Native born American Citizen
Left Singapore before age 11
Attended only non-MOE Expatriate Interntional School
No Pink IC
Singapore Passport expired
MinDef has no valid address on file for him

Seeking advice / guidance:

1. Should we send a letter to MinDef delaring our intention to renounce his Singapore Citizenship? If yes should the letter be sent now or wait until he is 16.5 years of age?

2. In sending the letter and registering him at age 16.5, will he truely be given a deferment until age 21 when he can resign his Singapore Citizenship or is it better not to send any letter, no notice will be received by us from MinDef as we have moved several times, and just mail in the citizenship certificate and expired passport back to ICA at 21 or not even do all that and just forget all about Singapore?

Any advice / guidance on how to handle the above will be greatly appreciated. We would like to do this in such a way so that if as an adult he ever visited Singapore he would not be detained for any reason. Thank you for your time!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:46 am

When did his passport expire? Before or after the age of 11?

If the Passport expired prior to his 11th birthday then just sent them a letter notifying them of the intent now and again when he is 16.5 just to make sure. Send it registered return receipt requested preferrably. (I don't trust them either).

How did he get Singapore Citizenship? How did he get US citizenship? Where was he physically born?

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Postby PHK » Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:07 pm

Thank you sundaymorningstaple

His passport expired before his 11 birhtday and I will be sending them the letter now. It is unfortuante that no where else except this forumn they advise to send such a letter.

He was born in New York State so he has a NY State Birth Certificate and birth right native U.S. citizenship. My wife was Singapore CItizen at the time and since I had an Singapore assignment with an oil company we got him the Singapore Citizenship certificate via the Singapore consulate in New York before we went to live there for about 5 years.

I thought if they do not have our address than we will not get letters asking for bond, his Singapore passport is expired, or anything informing us for his need to register for NS as 16.5.

Suppose we register and they do not give defferment, than what do we do?

Would they not allow a renunciation at age 21 without registering for a foreign-born who's mother is no longer a Singapore citizen?

Thank you very very for having this great web site and information available for all... it is a real great service...

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:24 pm

PHK wrote:Suppose we register and they do not give defferment, than what do we do?

Would they not allow a renunciation at age 21 without registering for a foreign-born who's mother is no longer a Singapore citizen?

Thank you very very for having this great web site and information available for all... it is a real great service...


PHK, I can't really answer that question as it's outside the purview of this forum to give legal advice and if we give the wrong advice that could also get us into trouble.

However, having said that, I really feel that under your circumstances, if you follow the procedures outlined previously, you shouldn't have any problems at all. Especially since he is an American by birthright and a Singaporean by registration and as the mother gave birth without (outside) Singapore AND he has not enjoyed any of the socio-economic benefits like having an NRIC or Passport after the age of 11.

NB: That's how I got here as well 26 years ago (the Oil Industry). :wink: But I'm starting to look forward to getting back to my farm on the Eastern Shore of Maryland! (almost 61 now)

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Postby 888max » Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:27 pm

PHK wrote:
I thought if they do not have our address than we will not get letters asking for bond, his Singapore passport is expired, or anything informing us for his need to register for NS as 16.5.

Suppose we register and they do not give defferment, than what do we do?

Would they not allow a renunciation at age 21 without registering for a foreign-born who's mother is no longer a Singapore citizen?

.


If your son remain overseas without a exit permit. He is liable to be charge and send to jail if he return to sg.

Even thought his intentions is to return to sg at age 21yrs to renounce his sg citizenship. He will be forbidden to do so until he has served back 2yrs of NS to sg govt (free labour) That's regardless whether he left sg before age 11yrs, renew passpsort or whatever.

The only way out for your son is to call mindef up and inform them your intention for your son. If they accept your reason, they will issue exit permit for your son to stay overseas till 21yrs old while waiting for renouncing of sg citizenship.

I've been there, done that for my 2 boys.
Now my 2 sons are free from NS liabilty and I needn't have to place any surety bonds for them while they continue their studies overseas and renouncing their sg citizenship at age 21 yrs. 8-)

My sons now 10yrs and 13yrs old, are all living together with me in thailand.(The lands of smile)



Good luck!!!

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Postby lonelyman » Mon, 21 Jul 2008 7:55 am

888max wrote:
PHK wrote:
I thought if they do not have our address than we will not get letters asking for bond, his Singapore passport is expired, or anything informing us for his need to register for NS as 16.5.

Suppose we register and they do not give defferment, than what do we do?

Would they not allow a renunciation at age 21 without registering for a foreign-born who's mother is no longer a Singapore citizen?

.


If your son remain overseas without a exit permit. He is liable to be charge and send to jail if he return to sg.

Even thought his intentions is to return to sg at age 21yrs to renounce his sg citizenship. He will be forbidden to do so until he has served back 2yrs of NS to sg govt (free labour) That's regardless whether he left sg before age 11yrs, renew passpsort or whatever.

The only way out for your son is to call mindef up and inform them your intention for your son. If they accept your reason, they will issue exit permit for your son to stay overseas till 21yrs old while waiting for renouncing of sg citizenship.

I've been there, done that for my 2 boys.
Now my 2 sons are free from NS liabilty and I needn't have to place any surety bonds for them while they continue their studies overseas and renouncing their sg citizenship at age 21 yrs. 8-)

My sons now 10yrs and 13yrs old, are all living together with me in thailand.(The lands of smile)



Good luck!!!


I would like to know whether you have written any letter to inform MinDef about your intention. Whether MinDef has given you the exit permit?

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Postby 888max » Mon, 21 Jul 2008 8:57 am

lonelyman wrote:
888max wrote:
PHK wrote:
I thought if they do not have our address than we will not get letters asking for bond, his Singapore passport is expired, or anything informing us for his need to register for NS as 16.5.

Suppose we register and they do not give defferment, than what do we do?

Would they not allow a renunciation at age 21 without registering for a foreign-born who's mother is no longer a Singapore citizen?

.


If your son remain overseas without a exit permit. He is liable to be charge and send to jail if he return to sg.

Even thought his intentions is to return to sg at age 21yrs to renounce his sg citizenship. He will be forbidden to do so until he has served back 2yrs of NS to sg govt (free labour) That's regardless whether he left sg before age 11yrs, renew passpsort or whatever.

The only way out for your son is to call mindef up and inform them your intention for your son. If they accept your reason, they will issue exit permit for your son to stay overseas till 21yrs old while waiting for renouncing of sg citizenship.

I've been there, done that for my 2 boys.
Now my 2 sons are free from NS liabilty and I needn't have to place any surety bonds for them while they continue their studies overseas and renouncing their sg citizenship at age 21 yrs. 8-)

My sons now 10yrs and 13yrs old, are all living together with me in thailand.(The lands of smile)



Good luck!!!


I would like to know whether you have written any letter to inform MinDef about your intention. Whether MinDef has given you the exit permit?



Yes , I did.

I'm a singaporeon and my wife a foreigner (thai).
My wife wanted to bring all our children back to thailand to stay with her, to be a thai citizens. All my children were SG born. By then, I've since applied another thai citizenships for them using their foreign mum, just in case.

They (Mindef) wanted me to write in, submit doc proofs of my sons thai citizenships & must also state the reason for wanting to renounce their sg citizens(I stated wife's intention). Mine case was approved within 2 weeks. They sent me the approval letter to my overseas address.(thailand)

It will take almost 2 weeks for them to do their own findings & investigations.

1)Things like when my sons left sg ??
2)Got renew passport ??
3)Schooling ??
4)Check the docs ??

The last time, any Singapore male citizen who is leaving for overseas will have to apply for exit permit at age 15 yrs. But the new ruling have since changed to 13 yrs after the Melvin Tan (piano case).

Since my son turned this year, I called them up regarding the exit permit issue. The officer in charge informed me not to worry. They will issue an exit permit to my elder son when he turn 13yrs. Indeed, I received their exit permit for my elder son not so long ago.

The exit permit was issued for a period from 13yrs to 16.5yrs, without me having to place any surety bonds. As informed by them, when my son turned 16.5 yrs, they will send out NS registeration doc to us.(overseas) All we have to do is to get our son to sign it and send back to them. After they have received it, they will issue another exit permit which extend his exit permit from16.5 yrs to 21yrs in order for him to remain overseas LEGALLY.

Once he turned 21yrs, he can renounce his sg citizenship either overseas(at embassy) or return to SG to do it.


So for those whose sons left sg before the age of 11yrs but never bother/unaware to apply for exit permit for them, they will be arrested if they return. Maybe for a first timer, he may escape with a small fines.
But your son will be detained in sg and force to serve his NS liability for 2yrs before he is allowed to renounce his sg citizenships. No further studies for them !

Btw, I'm talking about my own experiences here. Everyone case is unique & different. If you're not sure, call mindef up and make enquire yourself.


Take care!
Last edited by 888max on Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 21 Jul 2008 9:26 am

888max wrote:The last time, any Singapore male citizen who is leaving for overseas will have to apply for exit permit at age 15 yrs. But the new ruling have since changed to 13 yrs after the Melvin Tan (piano case).


Good posts 888max.

Only thing I would have to change is the reason for the exit permit at age 13. It is more to do with the new biometric passports and the cost and trouble of producing them than it was due to Melvin Tan.

It's good to have someone who actually has walked the walk posting on here to basically back up what I've been saying for a long, long time.

sms

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Postby 888max » Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:23 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
888max wrote:The last time, any Singapore male citizen who is leaving for overseas will have to apply for exit permit at age 15 yrs. But the new ruling have since changed to 13 yrs after the Melvin Tan (piano case).


Good posts 888max.

Only thing I would have to change is the reason for the exit permit at age 13. It is more to do with the new biometric passports and the cost and trouble of producing them than it was due to Melvin Tan.

It's good to have someone who actually has walked the walk posting on here to basically back up what I've been saying for a long, long time.

sms



Thanks !

Just want to do my part & help out those anxiety parents.

I know how they're feeling now cuz it happened to me many years back, keep worrying about my 2 sons future.


Just take note: Mindef will try to deny everything said here but you must insist to request them to give you a direct line. There is a special dept setup within the mindef that deal mainly with those NS deferment cases.

It took me several attempts & calls before they put me through the 'right personal' in charge.

So don't give up.


Well !! If they make it so easy for everyone to get exempted from NS then nobody will serve NS for them, right.

Btw, don't mention this forum too. 8-)


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