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exemption from national service

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Plavt
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Postby Plavt » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 5:59 pm

sprite wrote:Yes, but this is not the UK. Things are different here. This is a very new country and a tiny one at that. I'm not sure the entire NS program should be scrapped because it doesn't work in the UK.


That is neither what I said or meant (please see my reply to superglide below). I am not sure being a 'tiny and new country' is relevant to having NS or not. However, the argument might be the goverment has doubts about some of its' neighbours. I will let you enlighten me on that one...........
Last edited by Plavt on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Plavt » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 6:12 pm

Superglide wrote:
"Here" is not the UK alas, "here" we are in Singapore, as in singaporeexpats.com/forum.


I know! I was just pointing out the reasons why the UK srcapped it, some people in Singapore may have the same opinions!
Last edited by Plavt on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Splatted » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 6:51 pm

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Last edited by Splatted on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby sprite » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 6:54 pm

Plavt wrote:That is neither what I said or meant (please see my reply to superglide below). I am not sure being a 'tiny and new country' is relevant to having NS or not. However, the argument might be the goverment has doubts about some of its' neighbours. I will let you enlighten me on that one...........


I was thinking of Isreal as an example. A few parallels can be drawn between the two, no?.

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Postby sprite » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 7:01 pm

Splatted wrote:
sprite wrote:then say when it comes to be their turn: no way, not my son. The rules (while not so clear apparently) have been around for a long time. If you don't want to serve, and have no valid reason not to, then you shouldn't live here.


It's probably because it puts a male 2 years behind career-wise. Consider how much money a person can earn over that time-frame, doing more productive activities.

I'm not sure about Singapore, but usually you will find in other western and democratic countries, you often hear of politicians that somehow got out of serving NS, or in the Vietnam war, or whichever war.

Often there are one set of rules for the average, but if you are rich or priveliged, there is another set.

Can anyone advise (purely for my own curiosity) whether our current leader has served NS?



A little confused Splattered:

By your reasoning, university would put them behind as well. And what's more productive than learning to defend their homeland anyway? :???:

The US doesn't have compulsory military service. Although rich and poor have dodged the draft, regardless of their employment.

Which leader are you referring to?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 7:14 pm

One other aspect to look at is the necessity for NS and the quality of servicemen as Plavt points out is to look at it from the opposite perspective.

If Singapore didn't have a military then what would stop it's northern neighbour from doing a japanese and just coming across the causeway and taking it back (don't you think they'd like to have it back now that LKY has it all built up to 21st century standards?)

Voluntary Military? Not enough money or face in it. Unless your name is Lee and automatically get general's pips without ever having been in a conflict. :roll: Therefore it is a must that the country keeps a deterrent force that can maintain a 72 hour military standoff capability until it's allies can get here. That's why they do the 5 power defense exercises every so often.

As to the quality of servicemen......

Here's where it gets interesting. Look at the quality of the US military serviceman. Very high quality right? WRONG!

That's because the draft was mothballed in 1975 and we have a 100% voluntary army. These are the dregs of society that can't hold a job in civilian life or have a quirk for killing and maiming (in other words, sicko's) Obviously that is an overstatement but the numbers and problems kinda speaks for itself.

On the other hand, if every man jack has to serve at least you get a mix with educated people (who have some leadership capabilities) to control the rabble within the ranks.

The so-call white horse program here has been proven to be BS time and again (before somebody thinks that they have heard something about this). Therefore, all Singaporean Males do their National Service and don't have the problems of military systems that allow one to purchase their ranks or other archaic practices like the UK does regardless of whether or not they are royalty or have peerages.

My son is anticipating his 21 months coming up shortly. Of course I've always been pro-military so he wasn't brought up by some pasti-arsed wimp who wants everything for nothing and expects everybody else to protect him just so long as he doesn't have to defend himself. Harsh call? Damn Straight!

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Postby Splatted » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 7:30 pm

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Last edited by Splatted on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby sprite » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 8:14 pm

Self explanatory? No, not at all. How can you say National Service doesn't do exactly the same thing? Benefit one's career? Lots of education happens outside the classroom. Life's experiences can be just as important as Accounting 101. Your comment about extending the time to 5 - 10 years is a barb and not worth responding to.

If you read what I wrote you'll see my comment about the US is in the present tense, and draft dodging is in the past tense. No contradiction whatsoever.

I think its wrong to try to get an exemption from National Service just to forward a career or because it is inconvenient. I have a friend serving right now, and I'm very proud of him. I have no doubt his experiences will help him no matter what career he pursues.

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Postby jpatokal » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:05 pm

sprite wrote:I was thinking of Isreal as an example. A few parallels can be drawn between the two, no?.


Let's see. One country was born through war, has fought 5-7 major conflicts in the past 50 years and is surrounded by sworn enemies who have publicly declared their intention to obliterate it and regularly launch missiles, guerrilla infiltrations, suicide attacks etc into it. The other was kicked out by its neighbor because they didn't want it, but occasionally still squabbles about the price of water. Now which of these needs conscription with three years of mandatory military service? :???:

Malaysia has no interest in Singapore. Malaysia's Malay rulers don't want to deal with a city larger than KL and several million additional Chinese upsetting their delicate balance, and because Singapore has no natural resources, there's no rationale for conquering it by force. Indonesia's army and government are already stretched to the limit and beyond trying to keep their currently sprawling archipelago together. What other threats are there to justify a huge army?
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Postby jpatokal » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:07 pm

sprite wrote:Self explanatory? No, not at all. How can you say National Service doesn't do exactly the same thing? Benefit one's career? Lots of education happens outside the classroom. Life's experiences can be just as important as Accounting 101.

Genuine question -- have you ever been to the army?

Your comment about extending the time to 5 - 10 years is a barb and not worth responding to.

In other words, the barb hit home. :P
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Postby jpatokal » Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:20 pm

Reminder: This is the Strictly Speaking forum: discussions should stay on topic and absolutely no personal attacks will be tolerated. Offending posts have been shunted off to Rubbish.
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Postby jpatokal » Tue, 11 Sep 2007 8:25 pm

More rubbish created.

But I'm unlocking this again. Play nice, mmmkay?
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Postby blitzonic » Fri, 28 Sep 2007 5:11 pm

Malaysia has no interest in Singapore.


Errr, did you miss Hishammuddin Hussein (their Education Minister & UMNO Youth chief) saber-rattling, okay, kris-waving at their Party Assembly in nearby Johor 2 years ago?

FYI The worry with the Peninsula Malaysians has always been that an ultra element will take over power there & then look belligerently downwards. With their quarrelsome politics & the historical baggage between the two countries, why shouldn't Singapore prepare themselves as a military deterrent? There's been no disagreement whenever KL has been a responsible government.

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Postby cutiebutie » Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:04 am

I really doubt that Malaysia or Indonesia have any designs to attack Singapore. If they wanted to harm us they would simply cut off the water supply, sand and earth and food shipments.

Singapore would fall without a shot. I do believe that NS is important for one reason and that is to give Singaporean males a bit of backbone and instill national pride.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 29 Sep 2007 1:38 pm

cutiebutie wrote:I really doubt that Malaysia or Indonesia have any designs to attack Singapore. If they wanted to harm us they would simply cut off the water supply, sand and earth and food shipments.

Singapore would fall without a shot. I do believe that NS is important for one reason and that is to give Singaporean males a bit of backbone and instill national pride.


The reason that neither has any designs on Singapore is very simple. The US 7th Fleet and lots of other military hardware sitting in Guam. Why do you think Singapore walks the fine line between it's neighbours and maintains VERY close times with the US, NZ and Aus? When Malaysia threw Singapore out of the federation it was still a backwater. But today? it would be a fine feather in M'sia's cap.


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