NEVER TRUST BANKS

[Plavt]

Well ringo maybe you haven't paid a cent in interest, I do don't know your financial status. The fact remains the majority of people do and that is how credit card companies make their money they wouldn't exist if they didn’t.

In the UK one person in four is in serious debt (mentioned in my earlier post) and a good many are using their plastic to live on having spent so much on luxuries leaving themselves short of money for necessities. However, the problem is exacerbated by the credit card companies who persistently people's credit limits every time the user gets near it. This is of course preying on the gullibility’s of human nature the more available the more they will use it.

[ringo100]

I am not sure what the term serious debt means and how it is measured.

I think sometimes you over dramatize how bleak it is in the UK, with these mountains of debt and terribly low wages. This is not my experience.

I would advise anyone to use their card to the max, leave their money in the bank (to keep earning interest) but just make sure to pay the balance in full the following month. You can then sit back and enjoy the insurance, bankruptcy and fraud protection the card offers and then get a nice rebate at the end of the year.

[Plavt]

I am not sure what the term serious debt means and how it is measured.

I believe the reports to which I have listened refer to those who owe figures well over their annual income.

I think sometimes you over dramatize how bleak it is in the UK, with these mountains of debt and terribly low wages. This is not my experience.

How am over dramatizing? I have simply watched or listened to documentaries that have published evidence of the subject under discussion. As for wages, either you have lived a privileged or sheltered life since many companies are unable to recruit staff for that very reason.
A bus company has to recruit drivers from Poland, underground cleaners are regularly recruited from Nigeria, catering companies (notorious for poor pay) often recruit from the immigrant community where the employees English is poor and he or she is unable to gain well paid employment to quote a few examples.

You can then sit back and enjoy the insurance, bankruptcy and fraud protection the card offers and then get a nice rebate at the end of the year.

Don't forget to tell people about just how much the will have to pay for such and just how easy it is for credit card companies to fudge on paying when subsribers' working lives go AWOL!

[ksl]

Working for a credit card company I know a little about the free money they provide. It just takes a little lateral thinking to work out how to use it to your own advantage.

This year I have obtained approximately S$1,500 of free money by changing the way I spend my wages. This doesn't include the fact that each week I go out for dinner or buy cloths at a discount simply by using a credit card. I don't buy anything I don't need I just simply have one of each credit card and use whichever has the best discount at the store or restaurant I am at.

I have also never paid a cent in interest to the CC companies.

I have access to spending patterns on CCs and believe me almost all CC is on luxury goods and almost none on basis necessaries.

I must admit ringo100, you are right, one can make money out of the system, and the best way to do it, is just like you are doing!

Although what you should be doing instead of peddling the CC and making the money, is to explain to all those you peddle CC to, how you beat the bank.

Becuase I am pretty sure the banks are not interested in your kind of business, apart from the Vulture side of your character, recruiting the unsuspecting suckers. I guess your the kind of person, that creams the cream from both sides?

But if you was honest with yourself, you would hold your hand up! With the knowledge at your fingertips, you obviously know what goes on, and it is in your interest, to keep doing what your doing.

Tell the truth, How many people have you educated in using the bank credit cards, to the same advantage of yourself?

How many have you warned of the dangers of falling into debt?

You state you have obtained $1500 free money by changing the way you spend your wages, but I don't see you telling how much you pay per year for the use of all the cards you have?

And from a business point of view discounts that are agreed on CC is a business strategy, supposedly to be a benefit, but is it really a benefit to encourage others to spend their money, with a carrot of a discount?

When it increases spending to a level, that may or may not go over the limit?
You say you only purchase what you need, I will say to you, do you really need it? When you think about it maybe you don't really need it, but you like it anyway.

I don't believe you are honest, with yourself, one reason, because of the way you express yourself, and the prowess of your ability over others on using CC to make money, rather than spend money, which indicates to me, that you want everything for nothing, To buy only what you need is quite ambiguous, don't you think?

Would vulture be appropriate, to take from bank and customers? I did in fact know a psychopath for many years, I sussed him out within a very short time period, but he was ok, harmless, but he did have a way of using banks to setup loans, in quite a clever way, to rob peter, to pay paul, one day he just disappeared, when the debt collectors where in Town, and seized his sports car, he certainly took the banks for a ride in a big way, and I believe one cannot be sent to prison these days in UK for debt.

I thought it quite funny at the time, although I prefer to be free of these urges to buy, even the things i think i need, and the fact, that what i cannot afford, I can do without.

Although it's strange that banks can be defrauded millions of pounds, and still make billions of pounds profit. although you are not paying towards the debt, so maybe all your clients are.

Of course banks are useful and my pet hate is a genuine and useful, hate for institutions is in my blood, I don't like being forced to do what i don't want to do, and in UK at that time, we didn't have any choice right!, So it's only natural for a non conformist to stick to his guns. Robin Hood was my hero!

[ringo100]

I'm not sure what most of that rant was about. But just to clarify a couple of things.

I don't work in sales and have never sold a CC in my life.

I don't pay any charges for cards. Most are free for the first year and then if you refuse to pay the charge many cards waive the fee. If they don't you can simply cancel the card.

Your ignorance of the CC market is quite obvious. Many CC business models have nothing to do with collecting interest. The money is made through the merchant fees (I work for one of those). They specifically target higher earners/businesses who spend big, and in most instances pay the balance in full every month. The incentives are there to encourage people to use the CC over other modes of payment i.e. cash, DC, other CC.

How does taking advantage of the incentives offered to me by the CC company make me a vulture?

I still think you paint a very one-sided picture of the UK. I come from a very normal Essex town and I just don't see the problems to the scale you refer to.

[Plavt]

Many CC business models have nothing to do with collecting interest. I still think you paint a very one-sided picture of the UK. I come from a very normal Essex town and I just don't see the problems to the scale you refer to.

Many used by ordinary people do and the evidence is there both in the news and the consumer reports if you can be bothered to read them. There are plenty of debt helplines so I suggest next time you are in the UK try talking to them they will tell you the same thing! I don't appreciate being called ignorant when my information is based on facts provided by the above sources to which you are clearly oblivious.

[seasider]

I was reading this thread and drafting my post in my head, but ringo has pretty much said it all in his last post.

Make your credit card work for YOU. Use it for things you can afford, everyday groceries as well as clothing, etc. - and pay it off every month. Use it so much that, when the bank tries to charge you an annual fee, you are in a good position to say no - you've earned them so much money in merchant's fees they won't want to lose you. If they disagree, cancel your card.

Look for a card with good perks. The first year we were here, we got free gym/spa membership at a top-notch hotel. They stopped that perk, so we moved to another card. Now we've got 3 - one each of Visa, Mastercard and Amex - and we use them as appropriate to get the most discount or perks. Usually krisflyer miles these days - and as my husband flies off every week and uses his personal card rather than his corporate card, we're doing ok.

[ksl]

I was reading this thread and drafting my post in my head, but ringo has pretty much said it all in his last post.

Make your credit card work for YOU. Use it for things you can afford, everyday groceries as well as clothing, etc. - and pay it off every month. Use it so much that, when the bank tries to charge you an annual fee, you are in a good position to say no - you've earned them so much money in merchant's fees they won't want to lose you. If they disagree, cancel your card.

Look for a card with good perks. The first year we were here, we got free gym/spa membership at a top-notch hotel. They stopped that perk, so we moved to another card. Now we've got 3 - one each of Visa, Mastercard and Amex - and we use them as appropriate to get the most discount or perks. Usually krisflyer miles these days - and as my husband flies off every week and uses his personal card rather than his corporate card, we're doing ok.

I do agree with most of your post, however the fact does remain, that it encourages you to spend more money, even though you wish not to, for some people the temptation is too much, and they do get sucked into a crisis, and then get scewed big time for their mistake.

You have to admit, that CC are not suitable for all people and the fact that, people where actually forced over to the banking system, without any consultation was actually an infringement on consumer choice. From a business point of veiw, and ever since, the financial institutions, call the shots not the consumer.

You and ring100 are just two people out of millions, that are disciplined, enough to use the cards, and actually deny, that you are encouraged to spend more, by the perks offered, is completely unrealistic, for one, you have transportation costs, to get to the place, where the perks are offered, for another you probably eat out in the same area, where the perks are offered, so your actual spending is increased, maybe still you don't see that.

Whereby, if there are no perks, you wouldn't be running around blind, trying to think, that you have beaten, the banks, the whole idea of credit cards, is to take away, the control of the consumer and increase spending, by temptation, like it or not, you spend more! And have to pay off the balance at the end of the month to avoid more charges.

Dumping your card and getting a new, just for the perks, doesn't slow down your spending, it does increase your spending, which is fairly obvious isn't it? If you didn't have the card, you wouldn't be chasing the perks, and you wouldn't be spending money on transportation and other such indirect expenses.

Why do you think people are recruited to do marketing campaigns, and offer discounts? Quite simple, so that we can manipulate consumer spending, we involved in business and marketing are well aware of the pitfalls, credit cards are liabilities and not assets,, although you may be able to afford your credit card and pay it off every month, the banks are making money, by letting you believe you are in control, but you are most definitely not in control of your spending. It is all subliminal marketing!

[Grim Reaper]

Well, here's number three.

I have several cc's and I signed the contract agreement after reading all the details, so I know what I have signed for. It is after all my own responsibility. If I fall into debts now, it is my own fault.

I quite agree with Ringo, as such cc's are a welcome tool to finance or get discounts for stuff I was already contemplating buying.

yes, it takes discipline, yes it takes some thinking to find out what is the best way of acting.

So?

Here in Singapore btw the government has pretty much regulated (surprise surprise) the cc's. Banks are not allowed to issue cc's to people with less than 30k annual income.

And the banks here do not issue you a cc with more than twice your monthly income, most foreign banks as such do only give you one and a half month income credit limit.

[seasider]

No, I don't spend any more. I've always been good with money - I'm an ex-accountant and from Yorkshire, we don't waste it. Definitely don't go chasing perks either, but will take them when they are there and suitable. You assume a lot.

I do accept that some people get in an awful mess with credit, but (without looking up stats) many more benefit from it. I have in the past needed to borrow money but am intelligent enough to find the cheapest source; I'm sure a lot of other people do likewise.

ksl - I think you're at least as old as me (mid 40s) and I too remember people being paid in cash, but I for one wouldn't want to carry that much money around with me, especially these days in the UK.

Different strokes for different folks.

[ksl]

Error

[ksl]

No, I don't spend any more. I've always been good with money - I'm an ex-accountant and from Yorkshire, we don't waste it. Definitely don't go chasing perks either, but will take them when they are there and suitable. You assume a lot.

I do accept that some people get in an awful mess with credit, but (without looking up stats) many more benefit from it. I have in the past needed to borrow money but am intelligent enough to find the cheapest source; I'm sure a lot of other people do likewise.

ksl - I think you're at least as old as me (mid 40s) and I too remember people being paid in cash, but I for one wouldn't want to carry that much money around with me, especially these days in the UK.

Yes I am mid 50's, and I do agree with you and grim reaper, that credit cards are very useful, my pet hate are banks, and insurance companies, simply because they are not fully transparent for the layman, the consumer, and therefore are cleverly and legally protected to the hilt, with total disregard for the consumers, when anything goes wrong, the answer is, well you should have read the small print, or you didn't really understand, what we were trying to convey to you.

Really this is my own personal opinion of institutions, how they con and scheme every way possible, not to live up to their commitments, without a fight, and you the consumer have to take any legal action to get justice at your own expense.

This is fact! I also have a case sitting 2 years now, because we disagree on the payment, although I am the one who must fork out the costs, to take it to the tribunal and the fee, is 1,000 pound , which i will get back if the case goes my way.

Now this i didn't expect, I had paid premiums through my union for 20 years and this is my first accident claim, for a burst bursa, I was made to pay travelling costs, to two independant specialists, in Denmark, on two occassions, before they would pay out, and when they did pay, it never even covered the travelling costs involved, they say if i want more I must take it to the tribunal, and the cost is 1,000.

I mean I am the one who must take the gamble, pay the money out, for a panel of 3 guys to decide.

You see the insurance company as no risk, they hold the consumes money and make you fight for your rights. This is in most cases, that I have come across, with other people and i am convinced, this is policy, knowing that most people will just give up the claim, rather than pay more money out to defend the claim.

Banks I'm afraid creep up on you once, you have been with them for a while, occassionally taking money in dribs and drabs for minor services, and yes you get it back if you scream loud enough, although many people don't scream at all.

It is true, that the banking system is easier, and safer than getting cash, but it still doesn't stop the fact, that it was designed on a business model to increase profits, and all services offered and perks, are all part and parcel of increasing consumer spending.

It is debatable, if one is or is not spending more, by having a credit card, Grim Reaper points out that Singapore is different, and it is, because many are not forced to have their incomes paid into the banks, like what happend to UK.

Singapore is a good example of saying, that if you don't earn 30,000$ a year, you don't get a credit card, now i am not sure if the majority of workers are on less than 30k or not.

But what it does show, on a comparison say with UK, is that, there is a target group, that is not interesting and supposedly high risk to the banks, so they don't want them.

The UK on the other hand, had no choice, they had to accept all the people on the banking system, knowing that the socially less fortunate, would lose out, because a part of their income, would be taken in service charges right away, and it was.

The unfortunate people who are tempted into loans, and not just CC are the ones, that have had to pay the price of the conversion into the banking system, both financially and discriminately abused, because of their low incomes, and lack of good house husbandry, which is all of a sudden, thrown at them by government.

Of course the high paid worker, would not bat an eye lid, it doesn't concern them, this is after all class distinction, and the system is after all, geared to those that have money, and not for those on lower income.

So with UK many fall into the credit card pit, being exploited by administration letters at 25 to 30 pounds a time, that is one hell of a payment if you are only earning the minimum wage, of just over 200 a week, along with other bank service charges.

And it is very easy to say different strokes for different folks!

Although the debate was who is getting ripped off, and it appears, that increased consumer spending is manipulated by financial institutions on a subliminal level, through marketing strategies, and that's business.

Singapore and the 30K rule is discriminating I'm sure, because there are many on higher incomes, that cannot manage their money.

And just to give you food for thought about insurance companies, one area in my home City is rated as the highest crime housing estate, in the whole City.

Yet the housing insurance is the cheapest, and the car insurance is the cheapest in the area!

Statistically, the area for insurance cover is the lowest, because no one ever makes a claim, no one on the estate considers insurance, unless they are deliberately going to rob, there own place and make some money out of it, and for many it is a great way to make income, at the cost of the consumer.

It's only when genuine people who submit legitimate claims, get rebuked, for not having enough cover, or one didn't read the small print, that is annoying. Financial industry needs to be more transparent for the layman.

The criminals are much more sophisticated, and get paid out all the time, again, at our expense. I have seen it happen, and that's what i found frustrating, with insurance companies, it's not until you make a claim, that you will get to find out the truth.

Fortunately I am not reliant on credit cards, loans, or any other finance, I do manage and invest my own finances, now that I do not have to top up a loan, like i did 25 years ago.

Different strokes for different folk

[Plavt]

Clearly Singaporean banks have a different set of criteria to the UK where it is only too easy to get credit provided you have an income. I am not sure I see the point of a credit card if you pay back the amount owing at the end of the month since overdrafts will do just as well if not better. However, I do not know if banks in Singapore offer such a facility.

[Grim Reaper]

Yes, there are significant differences in consumer banking between Europe (Holland / UK) and Singapore.

The marketing strategies and marketing campaigns here in Singapore are so much more effective and intense, when compared to Europe. The competition is of course much more intense here and as you know Singapore is a prime market: densely populated and relatively wealthy.

In Holland I never was the target of the banking marketing campaigns, although earning more than enough.

Here in Singapore not a single day goes by where I am not somehow targeted; sms, phone, mail, advertising etc etc.

Gotta say, you have to be disciplined indeed...

[seasider]

The UK is different and yes, ksl, I do know some people fall for it. My friend there got into debt with storecards - when she told people pushing them that she didn't work, they would say, "well does your husband?" and she would get the cards, no proof necessary.