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NEVER TRUST BANKS

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NEVER TRUST BANKS

Postby ksl » Sat, 26 Aug 2006 9:22 am

http://www.singaporeexpats.com/forum/ftopic32917.html

I must admit to having a real dislike against banks, and insurance companies, they screw you from the front and turn u around and screw u from behind.

The employees have been forced into the financial system, world over, banks are nothing but con artists, rogue traders, scoundrels, and scamps I personally never have credit cards, although I have a overdraft facility in case of emergancies.

Insurance companies i found also to be rouge traders, never telling the home truths, but selling aload of pure verbal shite!!! when it's time to throw in your claim, they almost always find a loop hole, not to pay up.

Persoanlly my psychopathic tendancies to eliminate banks and insurance companies are in check, now that i'm in control! but it took along time! becasue once they have you by the short & curlies, they fcuk u, Business also!!! they are the scourage of the earth.

It doesn't amaze me that, they lend businesses money, and their vulture departments are there just waiting for the opportunity to close u out! if they can see a profit in doing so.

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Postby DimWit Kid » Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:29 am

ksl, not trying to be offensive, but what's your real gripe? Banking system is one of the most useful system invented for capital and money flows. As with other systems, there are always bad apples, there are always weaknesses, but if you use it right then in general it should be okay.

Credit card for example, as long as you have your discipline, where does it hurt? As long as you pay on due date, you actually get a free working capital (considering many of the credit cards are free nowadays) for half to one month. It is, of course, different for people who rollover their balance - the credit card interest can be a real menace. But these people can hardly complain - the terms and conditions are mentioned upfront that they charge a loanshark's kind of interest!

Banks - they're financial institution, driven and incentivized by economic reason, and act on a predictable sense based on those. So what's new? You borrow, you default, they bankrupt you. Nothing new, and nothing wrong (well, in some cases it needs to be prevented if it affects livelihood of large portion of masses). But in general, I still don't get the background of your gripes.

Insurance - hmmm so far in Singapore my experience with direct insurances are okay. You just need to get a good agent (and additionally study the plan they offer before plunging in). I am staying clear form ILP's though. Not much use imho, and if I want the investment part I can always do better myself rather than paying additional premium for a fund manager in an insurance company to invest don't-know-where.

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Postby ksl » Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:05 pm

DimWit Kid wrote:ksl, not trying to be offensive, but what's your real gripe? Banking system is one of the most useful system invented for capital and money flows. As with other systems, there are always bad apples, there are always weaknesses, but if you use it right then in general it should be okay.

Credit card for example, as long as you have your discipline, where does it hurt? As long as you pay on due date, you actually get a free working capital (considering many of the credit cards are free nowadays) for half to one month. It is, of course, different for people who rollover their balance - the credit card interest can be a real menace. But these people can hardly complain - the terms and conditions are mentioned upfront that they charge a loanshark's kind of interest!

Banks - they're financial institution, driven and incentivized by economic reason, and act on a predictable sense based on those. So what's new? You borrow, you default, they bankrupt you. Nothing new, and nothing wrong (well, in some cases it needs to be prevented if it affects livelihood of large portion of masses). But in general, I still don't get the background of your gripes.

Insurance - hmmm so far in Singapore my experience with direct insurances are okay. You just need to get a good agent (and additionally study the plan they offer before plunging in). I am staying clear form ILP's though. Not much use imho, and if I want the investment part I can always do better myself rather than paying additional premium for a fund manager in an insurance company to invest don't-know-where.


Dear DIMWIT KID!

I'm actually not in the mood to discuss the issue, I don't wish to waste my valuable time on such scoundrels. I can see by your reply, that you would love to agree with me, if it wasn't for the fact that the terms of agreements are always there for people to read.

But for you I will go out of my way, my gripe is:

1. When all employees, where forced over to the banking system, we wasn't asked, we had no choice, and we all had to foot the bill, out of the income we received at the time, so from day 1, the first automatic costs paid by employees.

2.Second Gripe is that banks are a businesses that appear to have laws of their own, they need to be controlled, and they aren't. Until it's all to late, they scam the weakest of societies, the people that have not been groomed for banking systems, or are able to manage their money, and that is the largest manual workforce of any country.

Just like gambling really, not much difference, the poor sods that spend and are addicted to spending, don't have it to spend, still spend and get billed for it.

I must admit I do have a bank, and debit cards, but the banks are pretty pissed off, that they can't entrap me into their schemeing little scams.

Some banks are better than others, I have accounts in several countries, But my bank in Denmark I will support and say, they are the most helpful banks, I've come across, and the cheapest, compared to UK banks.

I guess you work for a bank, because you come out with this statement, that if you use it right, then in generl it should be ok.

How many people use it right!!! Where do you think the billions of profits come from that HSBC made this year, and who are now under investigation, because of the vast profits they made. mostly on reminders, HSBC have alredy said that if they are forced, to reduce there fees on letters, they will just start charging account fees.

So you see, that it is a scam right!! I mean it was in the UK newspapers big style. and like some banks, when you transfer money abroad, they never ever tell you, they go through a 3rd party to transfer the monies, so the consumer gets hit more than once. Until you finally realise they have charged double money for a transfer, but how many people don't realise. and thats what they pray on.

The lowest scumbags on earth in my opinion and you'll never get me to see it anyother way. I can recall also when I needed a grand one time, from Nat westminster to continue my business, I was refused of course, probably because the terms didn't suit them. But I got by, and eventually had great pleasure in closing my account with them and politely telling them to fcuk off, they wouldn't get 1 cent of my money.

Rogue traders I'm afraid, they all have a double face, yet some advisors are OK, especially the ones that are honest and explain, what the bank system is like.

Why is it always the small print, that gets us! or joe bloggs thought he understood, but the paragraph was made so legally complicated even the judge had a problem to understand when the trueth comes out. yet we the consumer are supposed to be the experts. Just sign here, everthing will be fine, you understood everything didn't you! What a joke

I mean I am much to wise to fall into the claws of the bank, again, and I say again, thank god!!! But there are many suckers that will never be free, right!

Not only banks by the way, you can add all government utility companies, especially telephone companies, gas, electric and water,......I'm all for honest business practise, thats why i point these companies out, especially in UK

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:24 pm

ksl, I agree that some aspects of banking are exploitative. My sis worked for a bank once. Lots of young people applied for loans that she knew would keep them in financial struggle and debt for the next 10 or 20 years of their lives, but she had to approve the loans because they met the bank's criteria. She left because she couldn't live with her conscience.

Credit cards are the worst. They are great for people who pay off the balance every month, but if everybody was like you banks would do away with credit cards as they wouldn't survive. The majority will pay outrageous interest for years, sometimes adding up to more than 10 times the price of the items they originally used the card to pay for.

Still, there are many conveniences that modern banking gives us that I would hate to do without. So I'm all for the modern banking system. I just think that credit cards should be outlawed, and loan criteria tightened a whole lot more. If I were the Minister of Finance I would pass a law to that effect, and banks would simply have to get better at generating revenues from sound investments instead of feeding off the weaknesses of clueless individuals.

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Postby Plavt » Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:06 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
Credit cards are the worst. They are great for people who pay off the balance every month, but if everybody was like you banks would do away with credit cards as they wouldn't survive. The majority will pay outrageous interest for years, sometimes adding up to more than 10 times the price of the items they originally used the card to pay for.


Approximately one in four people are now in serious debt in the UK thanks to the activities of credit card companies and banks. All too often they encourage people to spend what they in reality, do not have. No sooner does the customer get near the limit the creditor ups it thereby increasing repayments not to mention the interest.

My personal view and I am not saying it is right is; this is deliberate policy maybe even political since people will not be willing to go on strike and will keep on working for unjustly low wages in a vain attempt to pay off what they have borrowed. Some will argue if it was not for credit cards some people would not be able to afford anything they want. My answer is simply if you pay people decent wages to begin with they would not need credit cards - who agrees?

To make matters worse or maybe better for some those people of certain ages with no public or corporate financial responsibility can declare themselves bankrupt in which case what was borrowed never gets repaid. However, given the enormous profits involved in the form of interest I have never yet heard of a bank or credit card company suffering serious financial difficulty.

Plavt.

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Postby DimWit Kid » Mon, 28 Aug 2006 2:09 am

First of all, I'm not working for the bank - not even close - I'm not even in financial job. However I do deal a lot with the bank, and so far I am alright since as I said, I always try to discipline myself in paying off the dues. What I implied in my earlier post is that we need to see the situation in a more balanced view.

I still do not agree that the bank is the sole source of the problem. There are systems to check and countercheck the practices. That's why in every country there is always central bank (MAS, the Feds, etc) to lay down the basic rules of banking in the area. To just blame the bank and even go to the extent of saying that the world will be better without banks and their services is really an over-reaction. I mean, how would you regulate and facilitate the funds traffic without them? Getting paid well is alright and well, but I tend to think of the bank not only as lenders, but also as service provider, which is in my opinion their most useful role in the society.

What is the alternative system? For everybody to dig a hole and put their money in it? And then pay everything by cash? Leveraging for investment is sometimes good when you know what you are getting into. Merely saying the bank is bad without proposing any solutions (or only proposing one-size fits all solution without looking at the positives and negatives in a balanced view) is not correct either.

Having said that, I do agree that 'exploitative' acts need to be controlled - for example, I wondered why after much publicized millions of credit card defaults, MAS lowered the credit card requirements. I also agree that the credit card business is really one of the area that needs more strict regulation. All is good in the beginning, but when the bank gives a credit limit equals to 2 months salary, and then noticed that the customer spends and rolled over the balance, there needs to be a stop-valve so that the customer does not overspend. This is why personally I feel that there is a need to consolidate balances between various credit cards/overdraft owned (eg for people who owns 5-10 credit cards, so effectively having a credit limit of 10-20 times monthly salary) so that the financial health of the public is safeguarded. Having said that it is also not easy to manage, since for example I sometimes used my credit card to 3-4 times my monthly salary in a month (for reimbursable expenses, not purchases). How will that kind of thing be managed? It is not straightforward but in the end if the usage of the system is not abused, then even credit cards shouldn't be a problem.

The answer is not to kill all banking systems - it again lies in the public education, personal financial discipline, and an early warning system if the customers are going overboard. Like in the case of WIMH sister's job, the financial requirements for approving loan should be stricter. And that's the job for central bank to define it (so in a way - I agree with Plavt that some political issue is there).

My view on credit cards: Credit cards are not for buying something someone cannot afford in the first place - it is a way of convenient financing (the ridiculous interest rate should be avoided though - so only use it for short term financing where the ridiculous rate is not charged) and a convenient payment method. It has nothing to do with whether people are paid decent or indecent wages - people with low wages should actually have less access to unsecured consumer credits, thus, should not have the access to high credit limit with their credit cards.
And lastly, I think the concept of credit cards are not (only) to profit from outrageous interest (in fact if the interest is not outrageous, those people with ill-financial discipline will spend even more, right?) - they charge the vendor upfront 3-5% or so.

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Postby ksl » Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:32 am

DimWit Kid wrote:First of all, I'm not working for the bank - not even close - I'm not even in financial job. However I do deal a lot with the bank, and so far I am alright since as I said, I always try to discipline myself in paying off the dues. What I implied in my earlier post is that we need to see the situation in a more balanced view.

I still do not agree that the bank is the sole source of the problem. There are systems to check and countercheck the practices. That's why in every country there is always central bank (MAS, the Feds, etc) to lay down the basic rules of banking in the area. To just blame the bank and even go to the extent of saying that the world will be better without banks and their services is really an over-reaction. I mean, how would you regulate and facilitate the funds traffic without them? Getting paid well is alright and well, but I tend to think of the bank not only as lenders, but also as service provider, which is in my opinion their most useful role in the society.

What is the alternative system? For everybody to dig a hole and put their money in it? And then pay everything by cash? Leveraging for investment is sometimes good when you know what you are getting into. Merely saying the bank is bad without proposing any solutions (or only proposing one-size fits all solution without looking at the positives and negatives in a balanced view) is not correct either.

Having said that, I do agree that 'exploitative' acts need to be controlled - for example, I wondered why after much publicized millions of credit card defaults, MAS lowered the credit card requirements. I also agree that the credit card business is really one of the area that needs more strict regulation. All is good in the beginning, but when the bank gives a credit limit equals to 2 months salary, and then noticed that the customer spends and rolled over the balance, there needs to be a stop-valve so that the customer does not overspend. This is why personally I feel that there is a need to consolidate balances between various credit cards/overdraft owned (eg for people who owns 5-10 credit cards, so effectively having a credit limit of 10-20 times monthly salary) so that the financial health of the public is safeguarded. Having said that it is also not easy to manage, since for example I sometimes used my credit card to 3-4 times my monthly salary in a month (for reimbursable expenses, not purchases). How will that kind of thing be managed? It is not straightforward but in the end if the usage of the system is not abused, then even credit cards shouldn't be a problem.

The answer is not to kill all banking systems - it again lies in the public education, personal financial discipline, and an early warning system if the customers are going overboard. Like in the case of WIMH sister's job, the financial requirements for approving loan should be stricter. And that's the job for central bank to define it (so in a way - I agree with Plavt that some political issue is there).

My view on credit cards: Credit cards are not for buying something someone cannot afford in the first place - it is a way of convenient financing (the ridiculous interest rate should be avoided though - so only use it for short term financing where the ridiculous rate is not charged) and a convenient payment method. It has nothing to do with whether people are paid decent or indecent wages - people with low wages should actually have less access to unsecured consumer credits, thus, should not have the access to high credit limit with their credit cards.
And lastly, I think the concept of credit cards are not (only) to profit from outrageous interest (in fact if the interest is not outrageous, those people with ill-financial discipline will spend even more, right?) - they charge the vendor upfront 3-5% or so.


I basically agree with you, Yet I find it very hard to come to terms with the system, that makes the rules, forces people into situations they never wanted, simply because its business.
And your watch dog oranisations are not worth two pennies, when they are always activated far too late, politically charged in one way or another, and created simply to save face...Customers have lost in there thousands before anything is done.

The masses and by that i mean the working class, the none regimental, the ones lacking the basic fundimentals of money management, home utility management, the ones that leave the heating on in summer and the windows wide open.

There are probably around 10 to 20 million out of UK's population need help in the above areas of saving money, yet the fianancial sector eats them alive, and have been doing for well over 25 years.

Don't get me wrong, there are many other businesses that rip people off every day, and don't bat an eyelid.

Car insurance is really a prime suspect in my eyes,, for example all the no claims bonuses, are lost if you move from Europe back to UK, why, because if you have not lived in UK the last 3 years, you are a higher risk, No claims are not always transferable, a little late, when you have paid for over 6 years right. Conned!!

You are at a high risk if you drive left hand & right hand cars, your experience does not count. it appears they change the rules to fit individual needs, actually. The local garages, AA did a survey and found out that 9 out of 10 garages fail to service the vehicles as by the book, and cheat the customers by over charging for work they have not done, Computer repair shops do the same, not only that, they put in second hand parts.

It pays to be a jack of all trades and a master of none, to ensure you have a fair chance of survival, in the capitalistic world. Otherwise your hard earned chash will be filtered away.

I also learnt the hard way, many years ago, today, I invest direct, to avoid excessive charges of 25 pound per transaction, with Halifax PLC, I am a trained mechanic, welder, and bricklayer, and have always taken the opportunities to learn everything that relates to household repair, and computers, through various courses, simply because I am aware, of the rogue traders around. this is life, this is capitalism at its best.

I get quite amused at some people, with their high education, and very little practical sense, and encourage them to learn about life, or get ripped off.

An example here in Singapore, was a friend who's house needed a spring clean, after looking round the house, I could see a leak in the bathroom ceiling, he told me the roof needed repair, I said I don't think so, maybe the lead flashing around the breather pipe is damaged.

I actually had to go onto the roof of the next house to look and could see, the lead flashing was damaged, a very minor job. yet when I cam back a week later the guy had a new roof on, Jesus I said what have you done!

He said the roofer, said I needed a new roof, the tiles were finished. My god! those tiles are good for 25 years or longer, all they needed was a good heavy duty washer on them, and the lead flashing doing.

Well no need to tell you how much a new roof cost!!! The moral of the story, never believe anyone, always have a second or 3rd opinion, because we live in a world of rogue traders. better still be multi skilled!! it's fun to learn and you save thousands.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:24 pm

ksl,

We may have grown up half a world apart, but this ole farmboy would swear we had the same teacher. :cool:

sms

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Postby Plavt » Mon, 28 Aug 2006 2:20 pm

DimWit Kid wrote:



My view on credit cards: Credit cards are not for buying something someone cannot afford in the first place - it is a way of convenient financing (the ridiculous interest rate should be avoided though - so only use it for short term financing where the ridiculous rate is not charged) and a convenient payment method. It has nothing to do with whether people are paid decent or indecent wages - people with low wages should actually have less access to unsecured consumer credits, thus, should not have the access to high credit limit with their credit cards.
And lastly, I think the concept of credit cards are not (only) to profit from outrageous interest (in fact if the interest is not outrageous, those people with ill-financial discipline will spend even more, right?) - they charge the vendor upfront 3-5% or so.



Unfortunately DimWit credit cards have everything to do with whether on not people are paid decent wages, if they were they would never need a credit card in the first place, standard debit cards would do.
You live in Singapore and I live in the UK so we are in two different societies and know little of yours and presumably you know little of mine.

The fact is the UK government has driven wages down and people have been encouraged to spend beyond their means. This has provided the government with a means of keeping the economy moving, which is of course wrong and will no doubt end in tears, since a simple answer for those unable to make repayments is to declare themselves bankrupt.
For those like yourself who manage never to get to that stage I humbly say good for you, but remember you are in a small minority or would be here in Britain.

Plavt.

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Postby DimWit Kid » Mon, 28 Aug 2006 4:41 pm

Plavt, you may be right - I've never thought of it that way before. Now let me muse some more on that... :) There are sometimes differences between correlation vs causality in this kind of cases, but I agree that if it was done (systematically) the way you describe it then it's a farce system. It of course assumes that people are not clever enough to choose the choice that is good for them but those things happens...

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Postby renter » Fri, 01 Sep 2006 3:29 pm

As Jack Meyer said when he was still in HMC, the whole investment industry is a giant scam.

And as Warren Buffett said in a Fortune article, reduce your gains. All of those rogue traders are taking away the investor's money.

And on a local show the other day, one financial adviser was asked whether he made any big investment. His answer is no. So how can you trust them if they themselves don't trust it? If you put it another way, they are simply plain liars. I know one person is not representative of all, but I bet that most of the advisers don't follow their advice that is well crafted to their customers.


If you have truck load of money, you can attract really good money managers. But for a commoner, your money only attract cockroaches.
Saving money is still the prudent and reliable way to build up wealth for the working class. The rule has never been wrong. We haven't seen anyone become rich just by investing his hard-earned money. Buffett is a successful entrepreneur before he is a successful investor, he built the Berkshire company.

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Postby ksl » Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:13 pm

renter wrote:As Jack Meyer said when he was still in HMC, the whole investment industry is a giant scam.

And as Warren Buffett said in a Fortune article, reduce your gains. All of those rogue traders are taking away the investor's money.

And on a local show the other day, one financial adviser was asked whether he made any big investment. His answer is no. So how can you trust them if they themselves don't trust it? If you put it another way, they are simply plain liars. I know one person is not representative of all, but I bet that most of the advisers don't follow their advice that is well crafted to their customers.


If you have truck load of money, you can attract really good money managers. But for a commoner, your money only attract cockroaches.
Saving money is still the prudent and reliable way to build up wealth for the working class. The rule has never been wrong. We haven't seen anyone become rich just by investing his hard-earned money. Buffett is a successful entrepreneur before he is a successful investor, he built the Berkshire company.


Buffett is a successful entrepreneur before he is a successful investor, he built the Berkshire company.


Quite rightly so, and money makes money, with what he's got and the networking system, inside information is not hard to come by. Its been going on for years, and will continue that way, one only has to look at Martha Stewart, and the president of Taiwans, son-in-law to see how the privillaged get on for inside info.

But who's going to look a gift horse in the mouth! the saying goes, you do the crime, you do the time! and it appears in most Countries crime pays.

What bugs me, and I've seen it happen many times, like Marconi Investment all punters were ripped to the bone, and I was one of them, 32 banks did a deal with the company, the private investors were sold down the river big style. and the CEO (a judge) I believe, walked away with a couple of million pounds handshake, not only that, to add to the scandle, the banks did a deal with the second in command, to turn the company around, which he did, at the cost of the private investor, he walked away, with millions of shares in the new company also.

All banks are crooks, they work both sides of the fence, support business and bankrupt business, why because there is money to be made breaking up companies and selling the assets. the word is hedge funds you won't get any sympathy from a bank or from anyone in Sim Lim, So be warned

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Postby ringo100 » Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:46 am

I’m sorry but credit cards are very useful and provide a great source of free money and benefits.

Surely it is about personal responsibility; I hate it when everyone has to blame someone else for their mistakes. Blaming credit cards for personal debt is like the fat man who blames McDonalds because they sell burgers.

The whole concept of credit has allowed developed countries to pull themselves out of poverty. Debt is what allows Singapore to have one of the highest levels of home ownership. Debt is most important financial tool in the world and without it the last 250 years of economic growth would not have happened.

The statements above about investing are simply not true. How do you distinguish the difference between an entrepreneur and investor? The guy made all his money from investing. Whenever someone takes money and uses it to build a business, they are investing that money.

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Postby Plavt » Sun, 19 Nov 2006 1:22 am

First of all ringo credit cards do not provide free money, the money you borrow has to be paid back with inteterest which means you are paying for it!

As regards personal responsibility that is true to some degree but the fact is people lose their jobs for various reasons which means many may not be able to make the necessary repayments. Don't try to say they should have kept enough money to pay off the loan 'just in case' they got into that situation, if they were able to do that there would be no point in having a credit card to start with.

Different criteria is used for the purpose of investing money in business to that which is used for assessing an ordinary employee of a company, government department etc.

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Postby ringo100 » Sun, 19 Nov 2006 8:16 pm

Working for a credit card company I know a little about the free money they provide. It just takes a little lateral thinking to work out how to use it to your own advantage.

This year I have obtained approximately S$1,500 of free money by changing the way I spend my wages. This doesn't include the fact that each week I go out for dinner or buy cloths at a discount simply by using a credit card. I don't buy anything I don't need I just simply have one of each credit card and use whichever has the best discount at the store or restaurant I am at.

I have also never paid a cent in interest to the CC companies.

I have access to spending patterns on CCs and believe me almost all CC is on luxury goods and almost none on basis necessaries.


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