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Coming to terms with history

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Wind In My Hair
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 22 May 2006 9:16 pm

Vaucluse wrote:What we find so often is history by the victors.

history and contemporary occurrences are still skewed by the victors to suit their own ends.


History is mostly guessing; the rest is prejudice. (Will & Ariel Durant) i think a historian's job must be one of the hardest in the world, trying to fit a puzzle together when most of the pieces have been lost.

don't forget that unlike in europe there are still millions of largely uneducated peasants in china whose attitude towards japan is purely emotional and nothing else. just yesterday my trishaw driver here in china said he hates japan because they once invaded china. full stop, discussion over, nothing more to be said. how do you lead a country like that?

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Postby jpatokal » Tue, 23 May 2006 9:52 pm

earthfriendly wrote:I can understand the decision of the court for ignoring WWII cases since they don't want to be flooded with more lawsuites. However, it is also hard to ignore and not feel the pain of these victims when one hears their stories.

Unfortunately (?) Japan is legally completely in the clear on this -- Communist China was so keen to get diplomatic relations with Japan that in the 1972 Joint Communique they signed away all rights to demand war reparations. :?

On the other hand, Japan paid up over a billion dollars (this in 1950-1970 bucks, that is, which were still worth something) to Vietnam, the Phils, Indonesia and Burma, which probably goes some way to explain why you don't see them burning the Japanese in effigy too often. Korea and China also got to keep approx. $25 billion worth of Japanese assets in their countries, although obviously this is only to be expected (would've been a bit too much to make 'em pay, after all...)
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Postby SMS » Mon, 29 May 2006 11:54 pm

I'll probably give myself another gout attack as I've had a few tonight that I shouldn't have had (nothing to do with this forum - I'm fed up here but not that fed up - a large portion of you are being just a bunch of anomyous jerks at the moment. I love it when I'm drinking! It's so rare anymore. Yes it's me in a personal mode. :wink:

Most of the Posters here would possibly remember the "Cold War" between the US and the old USSR.

Even if they weren't around in a politically aware state, with the level of educational intelligence hinted at or bragged about here, one would think that the old adage of one who forgets their history is deemed to repeat it.

What was it between the US & USSR? Constantly escalating things and baiting each other until they reached a critical mass. I think it was called one upmanship or brinkmanship wasn't it? Doesn't sound like anybody has learned anything on this Forum. In this case however it seems to be a bunch of forumers trying to oneupmanship into goading each other into seeing how much chaos they can create.

All that I have seen so far is a bunch of petulant kids trying to outdo each other in the schoolyard saying I'm the baddest MOFO in the yard - watch me, watch me, watch this! I can cause more disruption than you.

And this from supposedly educated adults. Enjoy yourselves, I be around to talk to the remanents of your self-destructive orgy. The ones with some common sense. The forum is ripe for weeding. (Both in moderators and Forumers) as far as I am concerned.

I actually took pride in what I did. Shame no one else gives a damn about how they appear. If I "lost your respect" even though I haven't done anything (just the opposite in fact) it's no real loss. I'll just have to consider the actions by those people and if I find them wanting....... [-o<
that they mature a bit more I guess.....

The SMS

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 30 May 2006 3:56 am

SMS wrote:The forum is ripe for weeding. (Both in moderators and Forumers) as far as I am concerned.

funny you should say that. i had the exact same thought earlier this evening, thinking to myself "a purge is about to take place here" but didn't want to say it then as people might find it uncalled for. but i agree with you. not that i'm for or against it, just observing it happening. our very own 'history' happening before our eyes. :-|

it's been hard on you lately hasn't it? hope the situation at home with your son improves. the forum may implode at this rate. let it. don't spend time here at the expense of your family's needs. it's really not worth it. if it means anything at all, i think you've already done more than anyone else to try to keep things together here.

take care SMS. :console:

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Postby Guest » Fri, 09 Jun 2006 1:53 pm

In lieu of the great number of Chinese and Korean tourists, Yasukuni shrine has started distributing brochures in these two languages and in English. Following are extract from the brochure. And we are talking about Japan in 2006.

The brochures say Yasukuni enshrines those who "were cruelly and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied Forces."

They also refer to the Japan-China war, which started in 1937, as the China Incident and to World War II as the Great East Asian War.

"War is truly sorrowful. Yet to maintain the independence and peace of the nation and for the prosperity of all of Asia, Japan was forced into conflict," the brochures say.

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Postby earthfriendly » Fri, 09 Jun 2006 1:55 pm

Above was posted by me!

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Postby renter » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 4:58 pm

Everybody wants to get it over. If you think the Chinese government is communist so likes to do propaganda using history lessons and grudges, then what about South Korea, such a democratic country? I think both sides in this WWII issue are at fault, but the reconciliation is difficult.

I see this as an issue left over by history. When Japan was defeated, its regime didn't take fundamental change, but simple another generation of government officials took over. Germany was different. The Nazi rulers were over.

Americans at that time made a mistake. They simply accepted the Japanese surrender and let the Japanese themselves to sort things out. They didn't force such sort of change as in Germany. Do Hitler and his generals even have a grave in Germany? If they really had, I don't see why the neo-Nazis wouldn't visit them.

The conflict can be seen about the same as that between India and Pakistan. Kashmir conflict was left over by the British colonist, because they didn't clearly define the border. So are most of the conflicts in Africa. The western countries bear the responsibility of history for today's geopolitical conflicts in most part of this world, although colonialism ended over 1/2 a decade ago.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 5:53 pm

renter wrote:The western countries bear the responsibility of history for today's geopolitical conflicts in most part of this world, although colonialism ended over 1/2 a decade ago.


Why does your attitude not surprise me? :wink:

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Postby jpatokal » Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:11 pm

renter wrote:Americans at that time made a mistake. They simply accepted the Japanese surrender and let the Japanese themselves to sort things out. They didn't force such sort of change as in Germany. Do Hitler and his generals even have a grave in Germany? If they really had, I don't see why the neo-Nazis wouldn't visit them.

Huh!? I think you need to hit the history books a little. Japan was ruled by the Allies (or, in practice, MacArthur) from 1945 to 1952 and they changed everything they could get their grubby little hands on during that time. Hirohito was only left alive because MacArthur thought he'd make a good sock puppet (and he did). Also, there are no physical remains in Yasukuni Shrine, only spirits are enshrined there.

The conflict can be seen about the same as that between India and Pakistan. Kashmir conflict was left over by the British colonist, because they didn't clearly define the border. So are most of the conflicts in Africa. The western countries bear the responsibility of history for today's geopolitical conflicts in most part of this world, although colonialism ended over 1/2 a decade ago.

I can see a case for blaming the colonial powers for Kashmir and many of Africa's conflicts, but what do they have to do with the Japan-Korea-China disputes? :o
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Postby renter » Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:24 am

jpatokal wrote:
renter wrote:Americans at that time made a mistake. They simply accepted the Japanese surrender and let the Japanese themselves to sort things out. They didn't force such sort of change as in Germany. Do Hitler and his generals even have a grave in Germany? If they really had, I don't see why the neo-Nazis wouldn't visit them.

Huh!? I think you need to hit the history books a little. Japan was ruled by the Allies (or, in practice, MacArthur) from 1945 to 1952 and they changed everything they could get their grubby little hands on during that time. Hirohito was only left alive because MacArthur thought he'd make a good sock puppet (and he did). Also, there are no physical remains in Yasukuni Shrine, only spirits are enshrined there.


Would the allied have allowed Hitler to live and have a grave to enshrine his spirit? They could change every little bit even including the habits in the toilet, but it is the politics that matters in this case. And now you see Koizumi does not need a physical body to pray, but a shrine with their spirit will do. So keeping Hirohito alive as a puppet or hanging him does not make any difference.

And SMS, it is not attitude. I am not claiming any returns for the past responsibility. :-| You had done something wrong that you didn't see when you were packing your ass leaving a country a century ago, but nobody would ask you to come back and re-do it correctly again. It happened, it does not matter, but it is the historical responsibility.
Last edited by renter on Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby riversandlakes » Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:27 am

It's all for personal gains of a few. Baby-boomers already do not care as much for the turbulent 100 years ago. I believe and hope we can truly work together for peace in another fifty years' time.
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Postby renter » Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33 am

riversandlakes wrote:It's all for personal gains of a few. Baby-boomers already do not care as much for the turbulent 100 years ago. I believe and hope we can truly work together for peace in another fifty years' time.


Hey. If the baby boomers don't care another turbulent 50 years ahead, all the working class are going to work their ass off for the boomers to withdraw their pension, not for our own pension. 'Cause, no more!

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Postby jpatokal » Thu, 17 Aug 2006 9:10 pm

renter wrote:Would the allied have allowed Hitler to live and have a grave to enshrine his spirit? They could change every little bit even including the habits in the toilet, but it is the politics that matters in this case. And now you see Koizumi does not need a physical body to pray, but a shrine with their spirit will do. So keeping Hirohito alive as a puppet or hanging him does not make any difference.

You're still very confused. First, nobody's worshipping Hirohito, and second, he's not enshrined -- even in spirit -- at Yasukuni. Like the rest of Japan's emperors, he's buried at the imperial mausoleum in Hachioji.
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Postby earthfriendly » Fri, 18 Aug 2006 2:04 pm

renter wrote:The conflict can be seen about the same as that between India and Pakistan. Kashmir conflict was left over by the British colonist, because they didn't clearly define the border. So are most of the conflicts in Africa. The western countries bear the responsibility of history for today's geopolitical conflicts in most part of this world, although colonialism ended over 1/2 a decade ago.


Asians drove out the colonists as they wanted self-rule and self-determination. They want to be the one who decide the fate of their own country. Wasn't it a great opportunity to do so after the Europeans left, work out the kinks and carve out their own territory/niche without the colonial masters lording over them? If they had desired British to interfere, then why force them out :???: ? Can't have the cake and eat it too !

Don't know much about African history though.

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Postby elephantears » Fri, 18 Aug 2006 4:18 pm

earthfriendly wrote:
renter wrote:The conflict can be seen about the same as that between India and Pakistan. Kashmir conflict was left over by the British colonist, because they didn't clearly define the border. So are most of the conflicts in Africa. The western countries bear the responsibility of history for today's geopolitical conflicts in most part of this world, although colonialism ended over 1/2 a decade ago.


Asians drove out the colonists as they wanted self-rule and self-determination. They want to be the one who decide the fate of their own country. Wasn't it a great opportunity to do so after the Europeans left, work out the kinks and carve out their own territory/niche without the colonial masters lording over them? If they had desired British to interfere, then why force them out :???: ? Can't have the cake and eat it too !

Don't know much about African history though.


Live in present lah! No need for living in the past'cause you only go mad. Live now and see what goes on eeverywhere in the world, nothing change so far. The present moment world events will become history also, so do something aboutit before it gets too late. Look into the events of Darfur, Israel and Palestine and Lebonon, Iraq etc etc. No need wasting your unvaluable time for history because it is gone and finished.


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