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Immigration

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Wind In My Hair
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 18 May 2006 7:25 pm

agree with Plavt. it may work in the long run but 'in the long run we are all dead'.

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Postby jpatokal » Thu, 18 May 2006 7:55 pm

Plavt wrote:I really do not see this working; in the UK there is insufficient housing for its resident population. A great number of families who cannot buy their own homes live in accommodation that is too small with little chance of being allocated a council house (public housing which is rented). The situation has already been made worse by immigrants since this housing is allocated on a points scheme.

So why not limit public housing to UK/EU citizens? If it already is, and these immigrants that you're griping about are also citizens, then this boils down to "white ants good, brown ants bad".

In addition if people were allowed to go where they please I for one foresee The Philippines becoming a wasteland, a large proportion of Japanese females making a bee-line for the US and UK likewise most of the female population of the Korean Republic doing the same.

I think your assessment of people's propensity to migrate is rather exaggerated. In terms of visas and such there is already very little stopping Japanese and Korean women from leaving their countries... how come so few do?

Singapore would be full of Indonesians.

It already is, just look at all the big-hair taitais in Paragon on weekends *bada-boom-crash*. But seriously, would the Indonesians keep on coming once it became apparent that there are no more jobs? Why aren't Batam and Bintan completely swamped, even though the factories (and whorehouses) there provide jobs that are scarce in many other parts of the archipelago?
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Plavt
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Postby Plavt » Thu, 18 May 2006 8:20 pm

jpatokal wrote:So why not limit public housing to UK/EU citizens? If it already is, and these immigrants that you're griping about are also citizens, then this boils down to "white ants good, brown ants bad".


Maybe a good idea but then 'do-gooders' would start yelping about racial equality a situation that is not going to change whether I like it or not. The only sensible course of action is to limit the number of immigrants.


I think your assessment of people's propensity to migrate is rather exaggerated. In terms of visas and such there is already very little stopping Japanese and Korean women from leaving their countries... how come so few do?


Simply not true Japanese and Koreans can visas to study in the Uk and permits to work (usually with restrictions) but often have a hard time renewing them.


Singapore would be full of Indonesians.


It already is, just look at all the big-hair taitais in Paragon on weekends *bada-boom-crash*. But seriously, would the Indonesians keep on coming once it became apparent that there are no more jobs? Why aren't Batam and Bintan completely swamped, even though the factories (and whorehouses) there provide jobs that are scarce in many other parts of the archipelago?


I think it more accurate to say you have a large proportion of Indonesians in Singapore. At this distance I have no idea what number and no information on Batam and Bintan (areas I don't know.) As for the question; 'would the Indonesians keep on coming once there it became apparent there are no more jobs?' I would say that is debatable since it does not always register in the minds of some that emigration is not the answer. You could be right though.


Plavt.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 18 May 2006 9:57 pm

What I see happening in your open border concept that unless the rulers were changed, the whole world would end up in the the US, UK, Canada or Auz/NZ. Indonesians would flock in larger number to Singapore but singapore would be able to take several million because fully one third of the population would migrate to Canada/Aus with a few to the US/NZ/UK. The same thing would happen world wide with each country trying up migrate up the food chain one or two notches.

Nope, I think strict immigration policies would have to be in place or it would end up not a free for all but just shifting the misery to a new location.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 18 May 2006 11:08 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:What I see happening in your open border concept that unless the rulers were changed, the whole world would end up in the the US, UK, Canada or Auz/NZ.


actually, i may choose to go to africa. seriously.

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ProvenPracticalFlexible
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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Fri, 19 May 2006 8:50 pm

I fully agree that there needs to be controlled immigration policies. Countries that are more or less on the same level can easier open their borders to each other just like in EU, but if there is too wide gap in the standard of living it becomes risky.
I think the whole world opening the borders would end up in a huge mess, when people from the really poor countries would start moving to the rich ones. The situation might get balanced in a few generations, but I wonder who would like to be those generations. It really wouldn't be a couple of years, more like half a century.

On the other hand the forecasts of how many people would leave they country if they had a chance always seems to be exaggerated. There was a lot of discussion in EU when new countries join (both 95 and two years ago) that all the labour force would leave to UK and Germany. That didn’t really happen for a reason or another (there was a little jump in the beginning and Germany didn’t fully open their borders last time); I guess most people in the end like their familiar environments and do not wish to move to another country, at least not permanently. A few years foreign experience might just do.

Only situation to leave in large numbers are if there situation is really desperate; for example war or extreme poverty. Based on that Indonesians moving to Singapore in large numbers seems more likely to me, than Singaporeans moving out. Of course there’s also much more Indonesians, so even a small fraction of them would be a large number.

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Postby T2K » Thu, 08 Jun 2006 1:10 pm

Coming in late on this one. Some interesting topics in this forum.

There is more to a country than labor. Many factors achieve high standards of living. It's a balance of many things (govt', infrastructure, bureacracy, economy, social factors, culture, language, etc).

I fail to see how unrestrained immigration from countries who have failed to achieve this balance can do anything but harm the balance in those that have achieved it.

However, higher socio-economic status almost always equals less children.
So, of course immigration is needed but it should be outright cherry-picking. You want to move to Europe, CA, SG, US, AU, NZ, JP? What can you bring to the table? What can you do for us?

Immigration is not a right, it's a privilege.

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Postby Global Citizen » Thu, 08 Jun 2006 8:18 pm

T2K wrote:You want to move to Europe, CA, SG, US, AU, NZ, JP? What can you bring to the table? What can you do for us?

Immigration is not a right, it's a privilege.


And therein lies the crux of the matter.
One man's meat is another's poison.

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Postby riversandlakes » Thu, 08 Jun 2006 11:08 pm

I think when a country on the whole plays the immigration card smartly it'll attract not only investors, but the best brains - which will definitely help in the future of that country's society.

I read somewhere that ironically, brain drain is a very serious issue in developing countries - but sometimes, like your immediate neighbour up north, blatant racial discrimination just pushes us away...
In a country like that, in loving a country like that, is just tough love. I'll find an easier more passionate love elsewhere, thank you very much...(or at least I die trying).

Immigration is key. Better countries out there smart enough to play this card gets a fully productive and already-educated worker - at the expense of less-enlightened countries.
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But the world is full of fluffier ones.


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