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A Line In the Sand

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Strong Eagle
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A Line In the Sand

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 5:04 pm

From today's International Herald Tribune...

Afghan faces death for rejecting Islam

Afghan prosecutors have requested the death penalty for the 41-year-old convert, Abdul Rahman. Rahman told a preliminary hearing in Afghanistan last week that he converted to Christianity about 15 years ago while working with a Christian aid group helping refugees. When he recently sought custody of his children from his parents, family members reported his conversion.

Prosecutors have described Rahman as a "microbe" and said conversion is illegal under Islamic law. Conservative Afghan religious leaders dominate the country's courts and prosecutorial offices, but Afghanistan's American- backed constitution guarantees freedom of religion. The judge has said Rhaman should die.

The case illustrates the continued tensions between President Hamid Karzai, an American-backed religious moderate, and religious hard-liners who dominate the country's courts. Over the last several years conservative judges have threatened to close Afghan television stations that aired material they deemed indecent and charged journalists with publishing material they declared blasphemous.


********************

To me, this incident is something that draws a line in the sand. Is Islam a peaceful and tolerant religion, or in the words of Wufa Sultan (see this great video on Al Jazeera - http://switch5.castup.net/frames/200410 ... 1050wmv&ak ), is Islam a "mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages?"

For all Muslims it seems to me that this is a watershed event. Do you believe in religious freedom, equal rights for women, and the many other rights found in a modern democracy?

Or do you agree that those who violate the tenets of Islam should be punished, that the government should have a bureau dedicated to enforcing Islamic law, such as the attempts to close bars in Palestine and the efforts to enforce "modesty" codes for women? Or, as we see in Malaysia, the efforts of Muslims to supercede inheritance laws even when the spouse is non Muslim?

There doesn't seem to be much grey area here. So what are moderate Muslims (and I believe there are many) going to do? If you believe in individual rights what are you going to do?

And if you believe in a Islamic based government, what justifications do you use to usurp the rights of others... religious freedoms, the rights of women?

I'm really very curious.
Last edited by Strong Eagle on Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Plavt » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 6:14 pm

What your post shows SE is most definitely religious intolerance not to mention tyranny on the part of the prosecutors who have apparently imputed their own meaning into the religion. I am no Islamic scholar but I do know the Koran tells it followers to be kind to persons of other faiths and does not condone killing. This is yet another example of something in essence good being 'twisted' to suit the purposes of fundamentalists.

Plavt.

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Postby tiki » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 6:18 pm

Religion has become an ugly word of late.

Sad to see those who were once respected for their faith use religion for personal glory.

Religion is suppose to be a teaching tool....

..not a weapon.
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Postby Quasimodo » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 8:13 pm

There doesn't seem to be much grey area here. So what are moderate Muslims (and I believe there are many) going to do? If you believe in individual rights what are you going to do?


Well, SE - you are absolutely right; where are the moderates at any time during clear and gross abuses?

Think back to the McCarthy era - how many people stood up for those falsley accused? Under McCarthy you'd end up with a ruined career, with this lot you end up dead.

Funny how Karzai comes across as such a modern person, but then this. It is so difficult to not say something bad about a group of people or even a religion that can be so easily manipulated and where justifications of excesses and criminal activity is are so easy to come by.
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Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:22 pm

Good points, QM. It was Edward R. Morrow (highly recommend "Good Night and Good Luck") that had the balls to take on McCarthy in a way that eventually led to his downfall. I see no such action in the Islamic world. No condemnations from those in power in Islamic theocracies. No condemnation from Islamic religious leaders. Once again, only the West has condemned this gross abuse.

And so, I ask myself... no matter what people say that Islam is supposed to be, I find it hard to escape the reality of what Islam IS in the world... terrorists... denial of rights because of religious stricture... harsh punishment of free thinkers who refuse to tow the party line. I see nobody stepping up to end this perversion. And if nobody steps up, then indeed, Islam is NOT a religion of moderation. It is exactly what it appears to be. Just like Senator McCarthy until somebody stood up to him.

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...

Postby ringo100 » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:40 pm

I’m not so sure, I think the concept that religions should be tolerant of each other is a modern politically correct concept and has nothing to do with the traditions and teachings of the religion.

I think it is quite clear that if you truly believe in a particular religion then you must fundamentally believe that those of other religions are heretics, are blasphemous and are destined for hell.
I think those modern day, wishy wahsy, religious people who are politically correct and accepting to all other religions are selling out their own religion.

I have a lot more respect for a Jehovah Witness who is prepared to die rather than have a blood transfusion than these so-called catholics who use contraception and go to church for christenings, weddings and for christmas carols. All least the first has convictions for what they believe, instead of this pic ‘n mix religious attitude which is so popular today.

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Re: ...

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:58 pm

ringo100 wrote:I’m not so sure, I think the concept that religions should be tolerant of each other is a modern politically correct concept and has nothing to do with the traditions and teachings of the religion.

I think it is quite clear that if you truly believe in a particular religion then you must fundamentally believe that those of other religions are heretics, are blasphemous and are destined for hell.
I think those modern day, wishy wahsy, religious people who are politically correct and accepting to all other religions are selling out their own religion.

I have a lot more respect for a Jehovah Witness who is prepared to die rather than have a blood transfusion than these so-called catholics who use contraception and go to church for christenings, weddings and for christmas carols. All least the first has convictions for what they believe, instead of this pic ‘n mix religious attitude which is so popular today.


However, none of the aforementioned groups goes around killing people or issuing fatwahs. Still, when YOUR religion decides how I must behave in MY life, it has crossed the line.

It wasn't so long ago at all that the US was filled with Blue Laws... Christian based edicts about what could happen on Sunday. Stores were not allowed to be open because according to the bible, it was God's day of rest. And a lot more.

If a Jehovah's witness wants to go witness, have at it... just leave me out of it. Anecdote: I used to live four blocks from the largest JW church in Houston. About every four weeks they turned out a new batch of recruits whose mission was to hand out the Watch Tower magazine and "save" me.

I put up with these Sunday morning visits for a long time. Then one day, there appeared two ladies at my door, ready to save my soul. I answered the door nude. NOBODY ever visited me again. Apparently, I was beyond salvation.

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...

Postby ringo100 » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:15 pm

I don't have a religion.

I just respect those true believers a lot more than the those who pretend at religion.

I suppose my point is that I think that most religious texts do justify killing those who don't toe the party line, or at least they say they will be subjected to eternal damnation.

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Re: ...

Postby tiki » Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:19 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
ringo100 wrote:I’m not so sure, I think the concept that religions should be tolerant of each other is a modern politically correct concept and has nothing to do with the traditions and teachings of the religion.

I think it is quite clear that if you truly believe in a particular religion then you must fundamentally believe that those of other religions are heretics, are blasphemous and are destined for hell.
I think those modern day, wishy wahsy, religious people who are politically correct and accepting to all other religions are selling out their own religion.

I have a lot more respect for a Jehovah Witness who is prepared to die rather than have a blood transfusion than these so-called catholics who use contraception and go to church for christenings, weddings and for christmas carols. All least the first has convictions for what they believe, instead of this pic ‘n mix religious attitude which is so popular today.


However, none of the aforementioned groups goes around killing people or issuing fatwahs. Still, when YOUR religion decides how I must behave in MY life, it has crossed the line.

It wasn't so long ago at all that the US was filled with Blue Laws... Christian based edicts about what could happen on Sunday. Stores were not allowed to be open because according to the bible, it was God's day of rest. And a lot more.

If a Jehovah's witness wants to go witness, have at it... just leave me out of it. Anecdote: I used to live four blocks from the largest JW church in Houston. About every four weeks they turned out a new batch of recruits whose mission was to hand out the Watch Tower magazine and "save" me.

I put up with these Sunday morning visits for a long time. Then one day, there appeared two ladies at my door, ready to save my soul. I answered the door nude. NOBODY ever visited me again. Apparently, I was beyond salvation.[/quote]

..good one SE.

I had one visitor incident and I told em I'm on the 'witness protection programme'.
'If you feel alive

in a darkened room

Do you know the name

of your solitude..'

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Re: ...

Postby Strong Eagle » Sat, 25 Mar 2006 5:36 am

ringo100 wrote:I don't have a religion.

I just respect those true believers a lot more than the those who pretend at religion.

I suppose my point is that I think that most religious texts do justify killing those who don't toe the party line, or at least they say they will be subjected to eternal damnation.


I think you are mistaking fanatacism for belief and moderation for pretend.

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Re: ...

Postby Quasimodo » Sat, 25 Mar 2006 9:21 am

Strong Eagle wrote:I put up with these Sunday morning visits for a long time. Then one day, there appeared two ladies at my door, ready to save my soul. I answered the door nude. NOBODY ever visited me again. Apparently, I was beyond salvation.


Probably the first upstanding citizen they had seen for a long time., SE.


Now, if I am correct then the Qu'ran accepts both Christianity and Judaism as religions. Why then, I ask myself, are they so intollerant of these, as Judaism is certainly not a prosletysing religion and therefore not a threat to the Muslim faithful.

Let's send the Mormon brigade to Iran and let them cross to Afghanistan with their Scientology brethren along with the disciples of Krishna -> scare the bejeezus out of Abdul and his band of merry men.
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Postby sapphire » Sat, 25 Mar 2006 9:26 am

Hey, leave my fave God Krishna out oft his mess. His disciples and the God himself are too busy flirting and having a good time. :lol:
It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with stupidity, and make it work for you.

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Re: ...

Postby tiki » Sat, 25 Mar 2006 11:24 am

Quasimodo wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:I put up with these Sunday morning visits for a long time. Then one day, there appeared two ladies at my door, ready to save my soul. I answered the door nude. NOBODY ever visited me again. Apparently, I was beyond salvation.


Probably the first upstanding citizen they had seen for a long time., SE.


Now, if I am correct then the Qu'ran accepts both Christianity and Judaism as religions. Why then, I ask myself, are they so intollerant of these, as Judaism is certainly not a prosletysing religion and therefore not a threat to the Muslim faithful.

Let's send the Mormon brigade to Iran and let them cross to Afghanistan with their Scientology brethren along with the disciples of Krishna -> scare the bejeezus out of Abdul and his band of merry men.



..Islam teaches one to be tolerant irregardless of race, colour or creed.

The intolerance you read about and witness are the doing of selfish individuals....

...in a way it is an 'undoing.'
'If you feel alive

in a darkened room

Do you know the name

of your solitude..'

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Postby sapphire » Sat, 25 Mar 2006 1:17 pm

Also, the moderate Muslims do speak up. But the pity is that their sound bytes don't sell.
It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with stupidity, and make it work for you.

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Postby ringo100 » Sat, 25 Mar 2006 1:56 pm

A couple of friendly quote from the Koran with the reference for those who want to look it up. Actually I don’t have anything against Islam, I think all of the “Great Books”


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