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Tookie Williams execution

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Tookie Williams execution

Postby CardZeus » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 8:51 am

Another execution - this time for a clearly reformed individual, who has already served 24 years on death row, and been nominated more than once for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Governor Schwarzenegger:
"Stanley Williams insists he is innocent, and that he will not and should not apologise or otherwise atone for the murders of the four victims in this case. Without apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption,"


Thoughts??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4523098.stm
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Postby Vaucluse » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:03 am

I'll post some rather graphic photos of the victims here, do NOT scroll down if they will cause offense.

CZ, every convicted criminal finds God, sees the error of their ways etc . . . when faced with punishment. It is the excuse of the weak. These three victims were just the last in a series of crimes by Williams and the Crips:
Albert Owens
Tsai-Shai Yang
Ye-Chen Ling

How about the victims feelings and thoughts?

Please do NOT scroll down if you might be offended by pictures of a graphic nature










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and all done by this guy:

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Does he deserve clemency?
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Postby Global Citizen » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:06 am

Gosh a tough one Zeus. I understand he's done a lot while in jail in helping the cause of fighting against gangs although he himself was instrumental in founding one of the most notorious and feared gangs in US history.

So the questions remain: Is he guilty of the murders he's sitting in death row and served time for as he claims he's innocent. (This one I admit,I have difficulty swallowing as he was a gang founder.)

Should he be sentenced to death or allowed to serve the rest of his days in prison without parole?

I am leaning towards the latter (although it may be too late at this point) as he appers to have done more good in prison in helping to alleviate gang problems and will do more good alive than dead. He's already served 24 years and is 51. Do the math, how much more life is there left for him to live and how many more can he perhaps save?

What are your thoughts on this Zeus?
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:06 am

I'll bite! You probably already knew it anyway. :-|

I have to agree with the statement regarding redemption versus his claims of innocence. If he is innocent how can he claim redemption for something he did not do.?

What are we saying here, that as long as I claim I am innocent I should not be required to pay for my sins? To me that would seem to set a dangerous precedence. As far as the death penalty is concerned, my views here are already known.

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Postby CardZeus » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:00 am

What are your thoughts on this Zeus?


Well as you may know I do not agree with the death penalty and in this caes we are talking about revenge rather than rehabilitation which remarkably "Tookie" seems to have managed.

CZ, every convicted criminal finds God, sees the error of their ways etc . . . when faced with punishment. It is the excuse of the weak. These three victims were just the last in a series of crimes by Williams and the Crips:
Albert Owens
Tsai-Shai Yang
Ye-Chen Ling


Well this just isn't true - not every criminal finds God or sees the error of their ways, hence the high rates of recidivism; however I respect your views. Having said that what is there to gain from his death? And what I find disturbing is the fact that he still claims he is innocent - knowing that by doing so and not 'repenting' he will be denied clemency. Just because he founded the 'crips' doesn't make him guilty. I'm sure he was no angel, however IMHO life without parole is a harsh enough sentence and he may be allowed to continue doing some good for society - society gains nothing by his execution.

Clemency for “Tookie”
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Postby Wham » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:00 am

Would Tookie Williams have found god and reformed himself if he had NOT been caught and put on death row? Somehow i doubt it. All very sad, but makes me feel better about the recent tough decisions that Singapore had to make in that sing is not alone in holding onto the straight but difficult path.

Personally, i am glad to see leaders who do not waver when forced to make tough decisions. Can you imagine what the world would be like if every leader would just take a poll everytime they were confronted with a tough decision? Oh wait... didn't we just have that in the US?
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Postby CardZeus » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:22 am

Paul Blackburn convicted when aged 15 of the attempted murder of a 9 year old boy, and spent 25 years in 18 different prisons, during which time he maintained his innocence. He said he had never considered saying he was guilty to secure an earlier release because it was a matter of "integrity". He was finally released in May 2005 when the Court of Appeal ruled his trial was unfair and his conviction 'unsafe'

Shareef Cousin, a 16-year-old American boy, became the youngest person on death row in the USA. He was convicted of murder and sentenced to death after a witness told the jury she was “absolutely positive”
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Postby CardZeus » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:36 am

If you want more reasons to oppose the death penalty:

China: Thousands sentenced to death after unfair trials:

Thousands of people are being sentenced to death in China following dangerously unfair trials, including ones where confessions have been extracted under torture, says a new report published by Amnesty International today (22 March 2004).


a senior Chinese legislator suggested that China executes 10,000 people a year - more than the number of judicial executions recorded for the rest of the world combined.


Capital offences include crimes such as tax fraud, producing counterfeit currency, taking bribes and 'killing a panda.' Mobile execution chambers (converted buses) are being extensively used throughout China in which prisoners can be executed immediately after a sentence is passed.
My emphasis


Source: http://www.amnesty.org.uk/deliver/document/15264.html
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Postby Vaucluse » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:37 am

Have mistakes been made? Absolutely.

Have the main victims been black? Definitely.

Did they lack a good education? Indubitably.

Have the majority been poor? Without a doubt.

Are all black, poor and uneducated men innocent of the crimes they are accused of? Hardly.


I hear where you are coming from CZ, but making cause celebre out of a gang banger is a bit much. Can he do more good alive and helping for the next 30 years? Sure. Will death help anyone (except possibly the victims family ad friends) No.
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Postby Bafana » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:44 am

Vaucluse wrote:Have mistakes been made? Absolutely.

Have the main victims been black? Definitely.

Did they lack a good education? Indubitably.

Have the majority been poor? Without a doubt.

Are all black, poor and uneducated men innocent of the crimes they are accused of? Hardly.


I know what to do.

Instead of free will allowing these people to choose their life and lifes path lets just lock em up now or better yet keep them in reserves. That way we dont have to execute anyone and we dont have to put society at larg at risk. I prefer the reserve option with subsistance argriculture as it will cost less in the long run.

In either case Arnie would get my vote if he was running for PM of Aussie anyday of the week lah. :cool:
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Postby CardZeus » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:47 am

making cause celebre out of a gang banger


I am certainly not trying to do that: just trying to highlight, once again, what I believe to be the inhumanity of the death penalty.

If Williams indeed committed these heinous murders he deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison and die there - isn't 60 years in prison followed by death an equal (or worse?) punishment than 27 years followed by lethal injection?
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 1:27 pm

CardZeus wrote: - isn't 60 years in prison followed by death an equal (or worse?) punishment than 27 years followed by lethal injection?


CZ, I also hear where you are coming from. I would question the last statement however. After a period of time I would assume that they would learn to live with the handicap much the same as a 'normal' handicapped person does. At the point where they accept the life inprisonment, it no longer becomes punishment does it. It becomes a free ride that the taxpayers are forced to pay for.

Not saying capital punishment is the way to go. Have mixed feelings. Don't believe however, that abolishing it is the way to go either. I still feel that capital punishment has it's use. Murderers, Rapists, Child Molesters I have no sympathy with and it brings out the eye for an eye in me.

I do agree, however, that there have been too many miscarriages of justice as it were. Most of them were prior to the pretty good forensics that we have today. I could go on but..........

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Postby CardZeus » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 1:38 pm

do agree, however, that there have been too many miscarriages of justice as it were. Most of them were prior to the pretty good forensics that we have today. I could go on but..........


So if someones DNA is planted on a murder weapon/victim then they must be guilty...
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Postby CardZeus » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 4:56 pm

Former gang leader Stanley "Tookie" Williams has been executed by lethal injection, 26 years after he was convicted of killing four people.

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Postby T2K » Tue, 13 Dec 2005 6:09 pm

Good riddance to bad garbage. Shouldn't have taken so long.


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