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Postby banana » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:39 am

Unfortunately for you I am not in middle management - mere 'working class' and no supporter of the death penalty either(you obviously didnt see the post prior before blasting off at me). Your second paragraph is little more than excuse for those who cannot face reality and evidence that the writer himself is most likely a drug addict. As for injecting rooms - hardly the answer is it? Sorry to disappoint you but I don't worship the ground of my leaders - so much for your arrogance!

Plavt.


So do you have any suggestions or constructive criticism to offer? Or are you content with merely showing your disapproval?
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....

Postby ringo100 » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:57 pm

Actually, this is the same worn-out excuse again and again. Yes, it is easier the police with a small island nation rather than a landlocked one. But isn't that a copout?


I was clearly talking about the UK. A landlocked country? Are you sure? The reason Singapore is easier to police is:

1) very small island;
2) very small population;
3) high percentage of police/army compared to population;
4) Asian culture means people tend to follow rules more than in western culture;
5) police have far more power here than in western countries; and
6) once arrested the accused is not allowed representation until the police decide.

You can have a strict/harsh legal system that acts a deterrent without a death penalty.

Singapore is fortunate that most of its police officers are reliable as I am told by at least one Malaysian PR.


Singapore is fortunate that it's police don't have to give the accused access to a lawyer and a totally biased appeal system. The fact that if you appeal and lose they increase your sentence is unbelievable.

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Re: ....

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 2:42 pm

ringo100 wrote:
Actually, this is the same worn-out excuse again and again. Yes, it is easier the police with a small island nation rather than a landlocked one. But isn't that a copout?


I was clearly talking about the UK. A landlocked country? Are you sure? The reason Singapore is easier to police is:

1) very small island;
2) very small population;
3) high percentage of police/army compared to population;
4) Asian culture means people tend to follow rules more than in western culture;
5) police have far more power here than in western countries; and
6) once arrested the accused is not allowed representation until the police decide.

You can have a strict/harsh legal system that acts a deterrent without a death penalty.

Singapore is fortunate that most of its police officers are reliable as I am told by at least one Malaysian PR.


Singapore is fortunate that it's police don't have to give the accused access to a lawyer and a totally biased appeal system. The fact that if you appeal and lose they increase your sentence is unbelievable.


I have never argued the merits or demerits of the Singapore Legal System. Crap, I come from a country with a totally corrupted system that is totally based on technicalities and the ability to get off with them. Yes, I do believe every man is innocent until proven guilty. Trial by a jury of peers? We've seen how easy it is to corrupt juries haven't we.

I've had to temper my thoughts over the years from being an idealistic hippy of the '60's to a parent in the next century. I wanted a better chance for my kids to survive their teen years and become productive adults. I have quit thinking about me and my belief's and have replaced it with the need to give my kids the best chance. For me that meant reducing the chances of drugs, crime, disrespect for elders (losing that one slowly - getting to be the same here).

The local system is fair? I've not passed judgement because I don't care. As I've said, I've gone from being idealistic to realistic. If I have to give up some of my so-called freedoms to ensure that, then so be it.

As a war veteran, I watched 55,000 young men like myself get killed in Vietnam, I've watched/read/seen/heard about a lot more than that gone with the little white bullet. Either snorting, injecting, swallowing or just plain inhaling glue. If the extreme punishment is what it takes and all countries used that method, it would slow down to a trickle at least. Sure there are hardcore addicts and it's impossible to stop completely. Legalizing and controlling it? Joke. Just like they did with Alcohol after proabition. Even today the moonshiners are still brewing and it keep the ATF squads busy. Why, because if you legalize it then it will be runners doing if for the tax avoidance.

These people are not human, they are vermin. Vermin carry the plague and need to be eradicated. Hopefully, one of them never get to one of your children (if you are fortunate enough to have them). If they do however, I'd love to talk to you then to see if you've changed your stance.

Oh, by the way, one of the reasons Singapore is easy to police is because the police in the various Asean Countries cooperate very closely when it come to the drug problem. As I said earlier, My BiL worked for the US DEA here for 15 years. He now runs a security agency here since his retirement 5 years ago. Usually the local Drugs Enforcement teams know when a courier/mule it getting on the plane in the other country. If the UK would adopt a less combative stance with the EU and the US with it's S.American neighbours they could do the same.

cool runnings......

sms

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Postby banana » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 4:18 pm

SMS,

You come from a system that you claim does not work for you, that what we have here is better and closer to what you would like your children to grow up in. You do not care if the system is fair, as long as you are able to get by within it and provide for your kids. It is very commendable and I give you that.

What I'd like to ask is, are you in any way a failure? In another thread you've stated that you've always marched to the beat of your own drum, that you've lived life the way you wanted. Do you not want your children to have those opportunities? You may have given up some of your freedom in exchange for reality but are you also not giving up your children's freedom in the process? Do you have that right? To quote Pink Floyd "Did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?"

You are right. There are vermin out there. But most of them, and the most dangerous ones, are not the drug dealers.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 5:41 pm

banana wrote:SMS,

You come from a system that you claim does not work for you, that what we have here is better and closer to what you would like your children to grow up in. You do not care if the system is fair, as long as you are able to get by within it and provide for your kids. It is very commendable and I give you that.

What I'd like to ask is, are you in any way a failure? In another thread you've stated that you've always marched to the beat of your own drum, that you've lived life the way you wanted. Do you not want your children to have those opportunities? You may have given up some of your freedom in exchange for reality but are you also not giving up your children's freedom in the process? Do you have that right? To quote Pink Floyd "Did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?"

You are right. There are vermin out there. But most of them, and the most dangerous ones, are not the drug dealers.


Banana,

You raise a few valid points which I'll try to address, although some of them won't be to your satisfaction nor are they to me, but this ole farmboy don't know how to put them into proper context that would be understandable so just bear with me.

I don't believe I said the US system didn't work for me. I've never really had to put my faith in a jury by my peers personally. So, I can't say I've been done in by the system. But I can read just like you can.

Am I a failure? I don't really think so. While I lived by my own drummer, it was always within the confines of the law. I've never advocated breaking the law and still don't (well aside from one DUI and a lead foot when driving). Yes I did spend 1 night in jail on 2 occasions for disturbing the peace and being where I shouldn't have been but no charges were ever pressed and I was released the next day after sobering up. I also didn't say the local system was better. I have confined my dialog to the drug problem alone. It is here that I agree with the local system. Not necessarily with the total concept of guilty until proven innocent. Can't have it both ways? True. But I'm not debating that. What does concern me is illegal drugs and the people that tempt kids with them and supply the pushers. We may not be able to cut the head off the monster without invading another country, but we can cut off the legs and arms, eventually, if the head can't get nourishment (money) it will die as well.

Yes, that is exactly the opportunity I want. The opportunity for my kids to reach adulthood so that they can make their own educated choices. Once they have reached the maturity of adults they are on their own and my job is done, hopefully right. A child needs guidance until they reach adulthood after that it's up to them. Hopefully, I will have prepared and protected them up to that point. Then, like myself, they are free to live their lives as they choose. Hopefully you'll do the same for yours.

sms

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...

Postby ringo100 » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 6:10 pm

I agree selling drugs to children is terrible like selling cigarettes and alcohol to children is terrible. All should be punished will long jail sentences.

But as an adult I don't see why I should not be able to have a cigarette, drink a beer, smoke a joint, take an E, snort a line of coke or inject heroin. I know the consequences of each. It is funny though that of the above the two that actually have the most harm on those around them are the two legal ones.

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Re: ...

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 6:27 pm

ringo100 wrote:It is funny though that of the above the two that actually have the most harm on those around them are the two legal ones.


Are you sure?

:-|

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Yeah

Postby ringo100 » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 7:56 pm

Yeah, I am. If you visit an A&E department on a Friday or Saturday night, the place is filled with drunken people who have had accidents/fights etc.

Smoking kills more people than all of the others put together. And as a non-smoker i'm more offended by second hand smoke than by someone taking a small pill that won't have any effect on me.
Last edited by ringo100 on Sun, 04 Dec 2005 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby k1w1 » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 8:14 pm

I agree ringo, but I think a big part of the reason alcohol and ciggies are such big killers is their acceptance and availability. Not all of it is this though of course: very few men get stoned and beat up their wives... but plenty of booze-heads do it.

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Re: Yeah

Postby Plavt » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 8:26 pm

ringo100 wrote:Yeah. I am. If you visit an A&E department on a Friday or Saturday night the place is filled with drunken people who have had accidents/fights etc.

Smoking kills more people than all of the others put together. An as a non-smoker i'm much more offended by second had smoke than by someone taking a small pill that won't have any effect on me.


That depends whic A&E department you visit. I would like to see the figures which show whether smoking kills more people than drugs.

Plavt.

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Here are some

Postby ringo100 » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 8:37 pm

From ASH UK website:

Illness caused by smoking

Smoking has more than 50 ways of making life a misery through illness and more than 20 ways of killing you.

It has been estimated that, in England, 364,000 patients are admitted to NHS hospitals each year due to diseases caused by smoking. This translates into 7,000 hospital admissions per week, or 1,000 day. [1] In 1997/98, cigarette smoking caused an estimated 480,000 patients to consult their GP for heart disease, 20,000 for stroke and nearly 600,000 for COPD.


Half of all teenagers who are currently smoking will die from diseases caused by tobacco if they continue to smoke. One quarter will die after 70 years of age and one quarter before, with those dying before 70 losing on average 21 years of life. It is estimated that between 1950 and 2000 six million Britons, 60 million people worldwide, would have died from tobacco-related diseases.

I haven't got the stats on drug related deaths yet, but I don't believe 6 million have died in the same period.
Last edited by ringo100 on Sun, 04 Dec 2005 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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more

Postby ringo100 » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 8:42 pm

More stats from ASH:

Deaths caused by smoking are five times higher than the 22,833 deaths arising from: traffic accidents (3,439); poisoning and overdose (881); alcoholic liver disease (5,121); other accidental deaths (8,579); murder and manslaughter (513); suicide (4,066); and HIV infection (234) in the UK during 2002. 7 World-wide, almost 5 million die prematurely each year as a result of smoking. Based on current trends, this will rise to 10 million within 20 years.

Bold part includes drug OD

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Postby Plavt » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 9:04 pm

banana wrote:
Unfortunately for you I am not in middle management - mere 'working class' and no supporter of the death penalty either(you obviously didnt see the post prior before blasting off at me). Your second paragraph is little more than excuse for those who cannot face reality and evidence that the writer himself is most likely a drug addict. As for injecting rooms - hardly the answer is it? Sorry to disappoint you but I don't worship the ground of my leaders - so much for your arrogance!

Plavt.


So do you have any suggestions or constructive criticism to offer? Or are you content with merely showing your disapproval?






First of all I don't support the death penalty for drug trafficking as that does not solve the problem and only serves to drive the drugs underground. You only have to look at other countries that still have the death penalty apart from your own to see that. However, one should remember when you take drugs you are not in your normal state; only a few hours after reading your last post I was walking along the street when a guy started talking to me out of the blue some incomprehensible gibberish. Fortunately he wasn't dangerous and I was able to walk away but the situation could have been the opposite. Why do you think the Police here wear bullet-proof vests? Not just for bullets but more over to stop lunatics on drugs or otherwise from stabbing them in the ribs. Where I work drugs are not allowed as I control signals and points for trains on the Underground system. If I was high and made a mistake I could kill one or a number of colleagues including friends. How would you feel if I killed a member of your family or a close friend? For the same reason we are not allowed to drink alcohol in the eight hours before a shift.
However, I realize there will always people take drugs no matter what and if I remember correctly Australia has some good policies perhaps like the one you mentioned. Although not every drug addict or user is going to cooperative and allow themselves to be monitored. Furthermore the irritation about users is they must persistently steal in order to feed their habit. Breaking in to houses in order to acquire goods to sell in order to buy their next 'fix' is an all too common problem which you seem oblivious to.

When you talk of finding an escape; why not do something constructive?
Lots of people engage in hobbies and part-time educational courses and remember some of the world's best inventors came from ordinary persons.
Yes you can complain about the pressures of life and there is some justification since I am often told Singapore for one is a stressful place to live. That unfortunately is just life and not much one can do about just have to find a niche that suits you without tossing dirty needles anywhere or stealing some old lady's hand bag or tying up some old granddad and leaving him to dye - these are real examples by the way.

Hope you understand me better.

Plavt.

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Re: more

Postby Plavt » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 9:10 pm

ringo100 wrote:More stats from ASH:

Deaths caused by smoking are five times higher than the 22,833 deaths arising from: traffic accidents (3,439); poisoning and overdose (881); alcoholic liver disease (5,121); other accidental deaths (8,579); murder and manslaughter (513); suicide (4,066); and HIV infection (234) in the UK during 2002. 7 World-wide, almost 5 million die prematurely each year as a result of smoking. Based on current trends, this will rise to 10 million within 20 years.

Bold part includes drug OD


Interesting but the bold part is not really telling us much (i.e these figures may relate at least in part to suicides).

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Postby banana » Sun, 04 Dec 2005 9:43 pm

SMS and Plavt, I see where the both of you are coming from - the fear of things fcking up causing pain and grief to others, especially those dearest and closest to you. Given extreme circumstances and momentary reaction, I can't say I won't entertain the same train of thought. Yes, if a scumbag were to threaten someone I loved, I would not hesitate to commit murder to prevent his action.

However, it is this very state of constant fear that have driven others to do that which you condemn. Ngyuen for example. No doubt you would say there are always other alternatives. But these alternatives may not be open to others. He simply took the options that were most available to him.

The drug issue is a much deeper societal problem than just junkies needing a fix. Just as your life and problems cannot be addressed simplistically, neither can theirs. I maintain, OD cases are more often than not due to fluctuating purity sold by uneducated street dealers who probably don't know the difference between crack and smack.

Not all junkies steal to feed their habit. If you took a walk through Melbourne, most of the used needles are actually found in the back alleys around the Collins Street business area than Russell Street. Russell Street is a junkie/gang hangout while Collins is where all the corporates are. No, most hardcore addicts would not have the energy nor sensibility to walk half way across the city just to avoid detection. The bums would just do it there and then, pass out on the sidewalk, wake up 30 minutes later, pick up their needle to use again because they rather save whatever little money they have to buy more smack. The smarter ones collect used needles to exchange with social workers.

Don't believe all the demonisation government propaganda feed you. Yes, you get bad hats everywhere and it's so much easier to think poorly of a bum than a suit. Instead of donating a dollar each time a charity sends underaged kids out to collect, take some time out and humble yourself to spend time with these people. You will learn alot. But watch your wallet. ;)
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