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Van Nguyen Prayer Thread

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sapphire
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Postby sapphire » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 9:32 am

As much as I am against the death penalty, I don't understand this outpouring of grief for Nguyen. Would you feel any different if someone dear to you, like your little brother or sister or your child wasted away in front of your eyes because of the drugs provided by Nguyen?

He was a mule, he knew the consequences of his actions. By that, I don't mean being executed. I mean he knew he would ruin a few lives by the drugs he was carrying. Did he feel any mercy for those lives he would have eventually ruined? NO! He went right ahead and did the deed, so why shouldn't he have paid for his actions? The story we've been fed is that he did this for his brother, that's the story we know. Who knows what the actual story was. His brother had already been convicted of a similar crime, maybe if his brother had been executed, he wouldn't have agreed to be the mule that he chose to be?

Would still add, may he rest in peace.
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Postby Vaucluse » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 9:52 am

Ecka Dimmock wrote:Well, it is done. I must say that by all accounts Van himself showed admirable courage, and seems to have used his time in prison to make peace with himself, his family and God.

What's also notable is the reaction of ordinary Australians (an no, Vaucluse, I don't mean the government) and the outpouring of grief - not for a good looking white person this time, but for an Asian refugee convicted of a crime.

Australia has a soul that I wouldn't swap for all the shopping malls in Orchard Road.



Well, Ecka - it's like with statistics, I could say the same - what's notable is the reaction of the ordinary Australian who is sick to the back teeth at the way our laws are so inefficiently enforced and that we should not try to influence another country's legal system.
(Do you read polls, read letters to the papers, Ecka?)
And, why, pray God, bring race into this again? Refugee? WTF? What is wrong with you? He is not a refugee, but an Australian citizen, who had lived in Australia for 95% of his life. When do people stop being refugees and start being citizens?

I'm sure you mean well, but please don't go overboard for this man, as sad as it is that he is now dead.
Last edited by Vaucluse on Fri, 02 Dec 2005 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ecka Dimmock » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 9:57 am

sapphire wrote:As much as I am against the death penalty, I don't understand this outpouring of grief for Nguyen. Would you feel any different if someone dear to you, like your little brother or sister or your child wasted away in front of your eyes because of the drugs provided by Nguyen?


Unless he forced it on them, they would at least be partly responsible for injecting it themselves, no?

He was a mule, he knew the consequences of his actions. By that, I don't mean being executed. I mean he knew he would ruin a few lives by the drugs he was carrying. Did he feel any mercy for those lives he would have eventually ruined? NO! He went right ahead and did the deed, so why shouldn't he have paid for his actions? The story we've been fed is that he did this for his brother, that's the story we know. Who knows what the actual story was. His brother had already been convicted of a similar crime, maybe if his brother had been executed, he wouldn't have agreed to be the mule that he chose to be?


Look, no-one is saying he shouldn't be punished or that smuggling drugs is OK. But was it really necessary to kill him? For a first offence? He hadn't actually killed anyone, and his prospects of rehabilitation would have been good. Two wrongs don't make a right, IMHO.

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Postby sapphire » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:05 am

OMG, so partial blame is your excuse for mercy? What about his total disrespect for the laws of the country he entered? He wasn't retarded, was he? Yes, he should have been given a second chance, but that's not what Singapore's laws on drug trafficking provide. You are warned during the flight, you are warned with various signages, yet you go right ahead and flout the law! Besides, he didn't learn his lesson when his brother was convicted, did he?

Only person I feel sorry for is his mom. She didn't deserve this in her old age.
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Postby k1w1 » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:08 am

sapphire wrote:Only person I feel sorry for is his mom. She didn't deserve this in her old age.


Amen. Poor, poor woman. I can't begin to imagine what this must feel like for her. I do really feel for his brother too - they tell you drugs will take away everything, he probably thought it meant his own life. Worse than that, it cost him his twin.

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Postby Vaucluse » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:08 am

Ecka - was it his first offense or the first time he was caught? Remember the millieu he was operating in.

An innocent he was not, mentaly retarded he was not - to blame? He was, and only him.
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Postby Mannish Boy » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:32 am

sapphire wrote:He was a mule, he knew the consequences of his actions. By that, I don't mean being executed. I mean he knew he would ruin a few lives by the drugs he was carrying. Did he feel any mercy for those lives he would have eventually ruined? NO! He went right ahead and did the deed, so why shouldn't he have paid for his actions? The story we've been fed is that he did this for his brother, that's the story we know. Who knows what the actual story was. His brother had already been convicted of a similar crime, maybe if his brother had been executed, he wouldn't have agreed to be the mule that he chose to be?


I think Van Nguyen knew the consequences were if he got caught trafficking drugs but I dont believe he knew that he can potentially ruin people lives by acting as a drug mule. Who knows? There might have been a threat to his brother's life that if he doesnt act as a mule then it would be his brother's life that will be a payment for the debts he owed to the loan sharks. If it was my brother's life at risk, I would certainly do it.

There are other ways to deal with the issue but I guess at that time Van Nguyen just didnt have the maturity and thinking as to what the full reprecussions of what he was doing.
Last edited by Mannish Boy on Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ecka Dimmock » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:40 am

sapphire wrote:OMG, so partial blame is your excuse for mercy? What about his total disrespect for the laws of the country he entered? He wasn't retarded, was he? Yes, he should have been given a second chance, but that's not what Singapore's laws on drug trafficking provide. You are warned during the flight, you are warned with various signages, yet you go right ahead and flout the law! Besides, he didn't learn his lesson when his brother was convicted, did he?

Only person I feel sorry for is his mom. She didn't deserve this in her old age.


Do I need an excuse for mercy? To repeat the point, he did deserve to be punished. I don't believe it serves any purpose to kill him. Yes, that is the law in Singapore, but enshrining it in law does not make it right.

I too feel desperately sorry for his mother. And refusing to let her even hug him? What purpose did that serve?

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Postby Ecka Dimmock » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:49 am

Well, Ecka - it's like with statistics, I could say the same - what's notable is the reaction of the ordinary Australian who is sick to the back teeth at the way our laws are so inefficiently enforced and that we should not try to influence another country's legal system.


I'd agree with them. I think Australia's drug laws need to be seriously looked at. I hope, though, that we continue to try to intervene for citizens who are facing the death penalty or in trouble overseas. David Hicks, for instance, has been in a jail in Guantanamo Bay without trial for years now. The govt. has been terribly spineless about getting him out.


(Do you read polls, read letters to the papers, Ecka?)


Yes.

And, why, pray God, bring race into this again? Refugee? WTF? What is wrong with you? He is not a refugee, but an Australian citizen, who had lived in Australia for 95% of his life. When do people stop being refugees and start being citizens?


If you recall, when Schappelle Corby got arrested, there was much talk that she only got sympathy for being white and pretty. (Derryn Hinch put it rather more bluntly, I believe). That does not appear to be the case.

I'm sure you mean well, but please don't go overboard for this man, as sad as it is that he is now dead


Going overboard? I'm expressing an opinion on a discussion board, not launching a revolution. I shall say no more on the subject.
Last edited by Ecka Dimmock on Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Vaucluse » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:49 am

Yes, that is the law in Singapore, but enshrining it in law does not make it right.

I too feel desperately sorry for his mother. And refusing to let her even hug him? What purpose did that serve?


And it being the law, it should be followed and obeyed if one enters a country that has those laws - whether right or wrong.

Agree totally with you on the hug - they did make an exception and let her touch his fac and stroke his hair - - - man, getting a bit chokey just writing that. :( What a f@cked up position to place yoru mother in . . .
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Postby Bubbles » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 4:36 pm

It all boils down to this, doesn't it....

1. The law and its punishment was in place......he knew it.

2. He went ahead anyway hoping to not get caught.....he did.

3. From that moment on he was doomed......we all knew that.

4. He was a drug smuggler and part of a chain of responsibility for wrecking lives.....he knew that, we know that.

5. He paid the price with his life....fait accompli.

6. His family will pay forever with grief, and most probably in his twin's case, with guilt.

7. We all know there must have been mitigating circumstances (bad earlier life, debt, wrong crowd, wrong place, wrong time etc) but all that counts for nothing in a country with plainly states what will happen if you try it on.

BUT.....................

We can talk the talk on this forever and it will not alter the fact that we all have double standards. Someone once said, on this thread, ....what about all those media 'darlings' we love, the groups, models, blah, blah? Almost all would have been in jail if they'd lived in Singapore. No, not many would have had the death sentence as they would not be supplying, or be daft enough to strap that much on them......but in their lifetimes, or even in a short period of their lives, how much would these people have got through? As much as Van supplied? You betchya.

So, where do we draw the line? Do we vilify Van for bringing the stuff to the people, or do we publicly ban known druggie users from the shores? Everyone in the drugs chain has responsibility, everyone, not just suppliers. Do you think mules would exist if no one wanted to use this stuff? How many of the entertainment acts you see over there would be allowed to perform if their pasts or indeed presents, were closely investigated.

And what about mitigating circumstances? Van's family money situation? Or peer pressure? Or falling into the wrong crowd?

YES, YES, I KNOW....the word of the LAW. And it's true, no getting away from it.......

You know it, I know it.......and I would never flaunt a country's rules.....but then, I am a lucky person in never having to be in a place in life which would make me consider the dark ways, or bad choices. Thank God.

But nothing is black and white in life, nothing. I have to agree that this man knew the consequences so took his life in his hands .....and paid with it.

But that doesn't mean to say that I think the punishment fit for the crime. Yes, it's bloody serious what he did, but surely 10 years hard labour, or similar, would have been better? Or forced to work for the community in some way?
You'll say, 'Wishy washy Brit thinking' and perhaps you'd be right, and yes, perhaps the drug lords would be less in number here if the deterent was in place, but I, for one, am glad we banned the death sentence. Yes, bad people escape the worse punishment, but I think it would make me part of the whole awful set up if they brought it back.

But in the end it comes down to common sense. If you enter a country with immutable laws on things then YOU HAVE TO OBEY THEM. Or suffer what comes your way. That's all.

But pity his mother and brother who knew a last breath would be breathed.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

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Postby Plavt » Fri, 02 Dec 2005 7:57 pm

[quote="VaucluseAnd it being the law, it should be followed and obeyed if one enters a country that has those laws - whether right or wrong.

Only too true; I get very annoyed when a number of my countrymen enter countries such as Thailand and get caught drug trafficking only to yell 'I didn't do anything wrong'. Such persons know they are doing wrong and should remember the law of that country applies. Seems there are too many who don't stop and think.

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....

Postby ringo100 » Sat, 03 Dec 2005 12:54 am

Just a couple of points:

1) What's the point of having the warning on the landing card? Surely by the time you are about to land you already have the stuff strapped to your leg. I think it might be a bit late.

2) Drug dealers are no more murderers than shop owners who sell cigarettes. Drugs don’t ruin people’s lives people do themselves. They choose to take it. The exception are those who sell drugs to children; then throw the book at them. But I also think selling cigarettes to children is just as bad as selling heroin and in the long run costs more lives.

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Re: ....

Postby Plavt » Sat, 03 Dec 2005 4:33 am

ringo100 wrote:Just a couple of points:

1) What's the point of having the warning on the landing card? Surely by the time you are about to land you already have the stuff strapped to your leg. I think it might be a bit late.


When you fly from Heathrow and many other places the card is given to you at the start of the flight. I have no idea but this could be hint for you to flush any drugs you might have down the toilet. I couldn't tell if this is the case or not but the opportunity is there.

Plavt.

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Re: ....

Postby riversandlakes » Sat, 03 Dec 2005 5:18 am

You're comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruits, but not exactly the same. Drug addiction destroys a society inside out - note the Opium War. Up to a point where a foreign army OUTNUMBERED 100-to-1 easily bested the Qing Dynasty like a fly.

We all know cigarettes to destroy perfectly fine lungs, but it's not the shopowners you want. It's Big Tobacco. But Big Tobacco is too entrenched now in the modern society to rid off just like that, though I believe we are getting there - slowly but steadily.

Drug dealers deserve what they met out to their victims of their selfishness and narrow-mindedness (only mine is a life?) - DEATH.
Just because humanism and current popular trend against capital punishment prevail in the EU and AU do not make it UNIVERSAL.
I didn't hear AU complain at all for other hanged but non-Aussie drug dealers? Where's the "love for life"? Or is it just Aussie life is life?

ringo100 wrote:Just a couple of points:
2) Drug dealers are no more murderers than shop owners who sell cigarettes. Drugs don’t ruin people’s lives people do themselves. They choose to take it. The exception are those who sell drugs to children; then throw the book at them. But I also think selling cigarettes to children is just as bad as selling heroin and in the long run costs more lives.
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But the world is full of fluffier ones.


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