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bangladeshi_wonder
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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 7:55 pm

I also wouldn't want to be Bangla-Deshi in Singapore, as we know that darker skin colour does have its drawbacks, in terms of how people treat you, your job options and many more things (of course Singapore is not alone in this at all)


Although you're generalilzing (read "stereotyping") (as did "benjamin" with the reference to construction workers :o ), it more or less says that even you think singapore isn't a great place to be for certain "undesirable" groups of people, where "undesirability" is judged using such trivial criterion as skin colour, nationality, language, religion or "race".

I fully understand your position and endorse it, as one of the lovely facets of Singapore is the safety we all enjoy - as well as the freedom to do pretty much anything we did at home as well.

Let's not let some nutjobs make this place more restrictive.



while it appears you have some minor misgivings with differences in certain trivial characteristics I've mentioned, you try your utmost not to let them reveal themselves in any of your replies.


for a starter, someone who thinks singapore already isn't (and hasn't been during its entire lifetime as a nation) restrictive is more likely a candidate for a "nutjob".

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 8:02 pm

And btw, it's not me who's at the helm of affairs in singapore.

Some guy who was/is there is a eugenicist.

hence I request the singaporeans (or foreigners) that claim singapore not to be a racist place (at least nominally) to prove their claims. I would say the idea of a eugenicist running amuck doesn't make any of the "undesirable" groups any more comfortable.

It's eerily reminiscent of Adolf Hitler, the Jews and the Holocaust.

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 8:14 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
bangladeshi_wonder wrote:About your afterthought, you're actually ASSUMING a lot more than you should. You don't know if I'm in Singapore, how long I would want to stay there if I actually was over there and when I did stay over there or EVEN why someone may or may not want to leave some place where he's discriminated against.

And it's not even all that important to our discussions. What this discussion is about is Singapore. I am just trying to provide a perspective that most of you not only lack, but never even thought could exist.


Before you start shouting ASSUMING to other posters, if they are assuming you are in Singapore is would be a good assumption. Otherwise, you are 'assuming' all your perceptions are correct without having experienced a long term stay here on this island. Due to the level of your written word, I am going to also make an assumption that you are relatively well educated. This assumption being so, then either your attack on the poster was unwarrented or, heaven forbid, your whole argument is unwarrented due to being fueled only by hearsay evidence.

For the record, I am a minority married to a minority of a different race and have lived in Singapore for over 23 years.

sms



It's nice to see someone put up a relatively more coherent set of arguments, even if that goes against what I believe.

I understand, though, you're a minority that generally is preferred by most locals and nonwhite foreigners alike over others. May I ask you to verify this claim of mine plz?

Secondly the very minority singaporean wife of yours also happens to be a singaporean. Hence she should and would, in general, face MUCH less of a hassle in even getting the most basic things done IN singapore. Do you believe that this argument of mine is true?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 8:27 pm

bangladeshi_wonder wrote:I understand, though, you're a minority that generally is preferred by most locals and nonwhite foreigners alike over others. May I ask you to verify this claim of mine plz?

Secondly the very minority singaporean wife of yours also happens to be a singaporean. Hence she should and would, in general, face MUCH less of a hassle in even getting the most basic things done IN singapore. Do you believe that this argument of mine is true?


Actually no. For both questions.

General concensus would have it that the general population would like to see the backs of all of this minority as we are "taking local jobs" so I cannot verify your initial claim. We are here primarily for economic reasons of the government as you well know. If we are bringing much needed knowledge to this island, as well as creating additional jobs, then yes, we are kowtowed a bit but it definitely is not out of respect but out of necessity.

Surely, your second question is frivilious in nature. This question has absolutely no bearing on your previous arguments and because of that, I won't even attempt to give it any merit nor your attempt to crawfish away from your original thrust.

sms

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 8:31 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Before you start shouting ASSUMING to other posters, if they are assuming you are in Singapore is would be a good assumption. Otherwise, you are 'assuming' all your perceptions are correct without having experienced a long term stay here on this island. Due to the level of your written word, I am going to also make an assumption that you are relatively well educated. This assumption being so, then either your attack on the poster was unwarrented or, heaven forbid, your whole argument is unwarrented due to being fueled only by hearsay evidence.

For the record, I am a minority married to a minority of a different race and have lived in Singapore for over 23 years.

sms



Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I didn't quite "Attack" any poster over here, verbally or otherwise.

I also understand you hold the belief that you're free to be racist or hold other groups of people in contempt based on their religions, languages, skin colour etc etc as long as you don't deny them any basic rights in practice.

Plz correct me if I'm wrong.

Given this attitude of yours, I'd have to praise you for the level of forthrighthness in your posts. But I can't quite say much about my attitude towards your strongly held belief.



It's hard for me to tell if their assumption of me being physically present in Singapore right now is a GOOD assumption. But it sure is an assumption not quite backed up by evidence.

I for one wouldn't like to make judgments exclusively based on my assumptions, for example.


I wonder how much of a difference it really makes to this discussion - whether i'm in singapore or not anyway.

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Postby Bubbles » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 8:51 pm

Aw, what to say? Singapore.....lovely place, but I agree, it's hard NOT to jump on the bandwagon when here first. I remember vividly writing to my mum in law when I'd been in Singapore for about a month, telling her that....'Mum, you'd never believe how beautiful it is here, so warm, and the people all seem to be so young and slim.....'....blah, blah, blinking blah.....

Where was I do you think, in outer space or something? Yes sure it IS a beautiful country, but it's also a crowded modern nation. It has litter, poverty, old folk, problems, maybe even drugs and prostitution...guess that's true too.....but it's like everywhere else.....it's a love affair at the beginning, which is crazy and hot, then it settles down into love or hate I guess, a little of each.

I think you have to stay years to get the real flavour of Singapore, and also, much more important, you have to have lots of local mates, it's no good sticking to your own nation ..... what is the point of that?

To me, Singapore will always be my second home, and I love it's folk, countryside (what's left) and all it's bad points I can ignore.....but of course, I'm not a Singaporean, just as you are not British......tons of things piss me off about the UK and I guess it's the exact same if you're a native Singaporean, Ozzie, American etc etc etc.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Dylan Thomas.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 9:14 pm

bangladeshi_wonder wrote:I wonder how much of a difference it really makes to this discussion - whether i'm in singapore or not anyway.


To you, apparently not much. To everybody else, it is like talking to a book, that also has a one track mind that refuses to change only because it is incapable of changing even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

That said, I will agree with you on the charges of racism here. But what do you expect. This country only has is brains or wit to keep it going, it has no natural resources otherwise. And, like any country, if you are an outsider, you would have to be looked at as either a giver or taker. If you come from a country that has a lesser level of confort you would be percieved, quite fairly, as a taker looking for a high level of economic stability. If you come from a country with a higher lever of confort (and that is subjective at best) but are bringing something to this country that it needs, then you are a giver (or at least it's give & take).

As this verbal intercourse with you is like talking to an out of date newspaper, this will be my final dialog with you. Sorry you are only interested in winning point and not open to learning or at least updating your knowledge.

sms

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 9:21 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
bangladeshi_wonder wrote:I understand, though, you're a minority that generally is preferred by most locals and nonwhite foreigners alike over others. May I ask you to verify this claim of mine plz?

Secondly the very minority singaporean wife of yours also happens to be a singaporean. Hence she should and would, in general, face MUCH less of a hassle in even getting the most basic things done IN singapore. Do you believe that this argument of mine is true?


Actually no. For both questions.

General concensus would have it that the general population would like to see the backs of all of this minority as we are "taking local jobs" so I cannot verify your initial claim. We are here primarily for economic reasons of the government as you well know. If we are bringing much needed knowledge to this island, as well as creating additional jobs, then yes, we are kowtowed a bit but it definitely is not out of respect but out of necessity.

Surely, your second question is frivilious in nature. This question has absolutely no bearing on your previous arguments and because of that, I won't even attempt to give it any merit nor your attempt to crawfish away from your original thrust.

sms




wow it appears that even the most favoured ethnic group feels it's disadvantaged. :o sorry if it upsets anybody but i just mean that in humour.

getting back to your points, do you by any chance happen to know about sarong party girls? what ethnicities do they generally hold in high esteem? why do they do so (hint: general perception among locals)?

you don't know anything about them by any chance, do you?


have you ever seen the gleaming faces of local singaporeans or foreigners from neighbouring countries like malaysia, indonesia or india, for example, after they've served a caucasian man, engaged in idle conversation with or even got chided by a caucasian/white person? I suppose not and I won't blame you for that.

Have you ever heard the overflowing enthusiasm with which many of these nonwhites, if I may say so, speak about certain white friends they may have, passengers they may have served, boyfriends they would like to have or .... I assume you get the drift.

Btw I am not of the opinion that white/caucasian men need NOT be served or befriended. I'm sorry if I come across as if I want that. I don't. I'm just trying to point out to you an obvious fact that you may have glossed over simply because you've become used to it.

Let me tell you a secret to prove my point.

I'm very often mistaken for a caucasian person by singaporeans. I suppose to their eyes any body not clearly chinese/malay/japanese etc or not clearly african is a caucasian. But it's only at first sight. Which means they generally think of me as a caucasian stranger. Which is when I often get MUCH better service than locals (or sometimes, from some local guys an air of haughtiness which I know actually serves as a disguise for their inferiority complex - that's a whole another story, they feel their girls are snatched away by caucasian men etc etc). But, invariably, without fail, on all instances that I have interacted with chinese singaporeans, japanese, koreans, indonesians, vietnamese, malaysians etc etc etc, they totally and completely treated me like some stray dog when they came to know my nationality.

This serves as a perfect example of what I've been trying to say all this while. It's just a secret I didn't want to make public but you left me with no choices.

I always, invariably, all the time, without fail, unerringly observe the tremendous, tremendous differences in behaviour that those aforementioned groups display towards me before they know my nationality and/or mistake me for a caucasian/white person AND after they learn about my nationality, religion, language etc etc etc.

Surely, your second question is frivilious in nature. This question has absolutely no bearing on your previous arguments and because of that, I won't even attempt to give it any merit nor your attempt to crawfish away from your original thrust.


crawfish? well I wouldn't like to back away from the original arguments myself, and I'm sorry if it did appear as if I were, but frivolous or not, what I had said is most likely to be true, judging from my own experiences and those of other people I've heard from.


which actually brings us back on track to our original discussion. It is very likely that the posts you'll make will only capture the (perhaps) sad experiences of your and your wife's lives but (perhaps) no worse than any of that.

While I will (probably) be in a better position to judge what will be among the worst, if not the worst, experiences a person can have in singapore owing to his religion, language, nationality, skin colour, "race" etc alone.


And that is why I pointed to both you and your wife's greatest possible disadvantages while in living in Singapore as a yardstick for the maximum amount of discrimination that will be captured by your own experiences.

Perhaps, I'm not totally right, and I don't deny that possibility, but I don't even see (the possibility of there being) a person who'd argue with some strong evidence that I am completely wrong.

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 9:53 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
bangladeshi_wonder wrote:I wonder how much of a difference it really makes to this discussion - whether i'm in singapore or not anyway.


To you, apparently not much. To everybody else, it is like talking to a book, that also has a one track mind that refuses to change only because it is incapable of changing even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

That said, I will agree with you on the charges of racism here. But what do you expect. This country only has is brains or wit to keep it going, it has no natural resources otherwise. And, like any country, if you are an outsider, you would have to be looked at as either a giver or taker. If you come from a country that has a lesser level of confort you would be percieved, quite fairly, as a taker looking for a high level of economic stability. If you come from a country with a higher lever of confort (and that is subjective at best) but are bringing something to this country that it needs, then you are a giver (or at least it's give & take).

As this verbal intercourse with you is like talking to an out of date newspaper, this will be my final dialog with you. Sorry you are only interested in winning point and not open to learning or at least updating your knowledge.

sms



assumptions! assumptions! assumptions!

.....in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


Quote some G*dd*mned evidence plz. I don't want to sound so rude but what you're saying is just PLAIN nonsense.


You DON'T need to know where I've been, where I'm or where I'll be to judge whether my statements are true or not. You can try (not that you will always succeed) to observe if my statements are true or not in practice yourself.


btw, you're a closet racist, i know that part and you believe you must not deny any body any rights based on their "race", nationality etc etc so I'm somewhat surprised that you'd even pay that much of a lipservice to me (agreeing that there exists racism).



That said, I will agree with you on the charges of racism here. But what do you expect. This country....


In fact I can say it's meaningless talking to you given that you'd actually justify racism : "yeah it exists BUT....".

i believe even adolf hitler had excuses (for massacring jews) but whether they were justified by other hardships he may have had, lack of resources or other materials is questionable at least and is most often considered condemnable.

as i would suspect, from your own comfort zone, you'd see your own self either at a disadvantage or at not any significant advantage compared to others, so you say

...with a higher lever of confort (and that is subjective at best) but are bringing something to this country that it needs, then you are a giver (or at least it's give & take).


when you say
And, like any country, if you are an outsider, you would have to be looked at as either a giver or taker. If you come from a country that has a lesser level of confort you would be percieved, quite fairly, as a taker looking for a high level of economic stability. If you come from a country with a higher lever of confort (and that is subjective at best) but are bringing something to this country that it needs, then you are a giver (or at least it's give & take).


do you see the slightest bit of a contradiction?

...have to be look at as either a giver or taker....

when it comes to me it's
you would be percieved, quite fairly, as a taker looking for a high level of economic stability


when it comes to YOU it's
you are a giver (or at least it's give & take).


you're not a giver but a giver & taker! while when it comes to me it's only a taker! that's not very contradictory really! :D


How many people here actually think along SMS's line of reasoning? That racism SHOULD exist as it can be JUSTIFIED? If that's the general consensus, I'd have to say I was wrong in expecting any of you to not be racist but I was right in stating singaporeans ARE racists (alongwith many foreigners, notably sms).

btw, i'm not just here to "win points", otherwise I would've pointed this out..

If you come from a country with a higher lever of confort (and that is subjective at best)...


If you come from a country that has a lesser level of confort you would be percieved, quite fairly...


because i'm not here to "win points" I don't even bother pointing out such obvious fallacies or try to "win points" by pointing them out.

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 9:59 pm

Thanks for your wonderful post. I don't deny that you're right!

I think it, in fact, strengthens my claim. Singapore is a great place if you belong to a certain "desirable" group of people, which apparently you belong to.

It just so happens that certain "undesirable" group of people will definitely not find Singapore a great place to live in and "undesirability" is judged by such trivial criteria as skin colour, religion, "race", language, nationality etc etc.

I don't despise any of you for having a great time in Singapore. But I think most of you are not perceptive enough to realize there's more than
just one perspective from which singapore is often seen and experienced. Some of those perspectives can be exactly opposite of that held by some members of a "desirable" group.

It's quite simple really.


Bubbles wrote:Aw, what to say? Singapore.....lovely place, but I agree, it's hard NOT to jump on the bandwagon when here first. I remember vividly writing to my mum in law when I'd been in Singapore for about a month, telling her that....'Mum, you'd never believe how beautiful it is here, so warm, and the people all seem to be so young and slim.....'....blah, blah, blinking blah.....

Where was I do you think, in outer space or something? Yes sure it IS a beautiful country, but it's also a crowded modern nation. It has litter, poverty, old folk, problems, maybe even drugs and prostitution...guess that's true too.....but it's like everywhere else.....it's a love affair at the beginning, which is crazy and hot, then it settles down into love or hate I guess, a little of each.

I think you have to stay years to get the real flavour of Singapore, and also, much more important, you have to have lots of local mates, it's no good sticking to your own nation ..... what is the point of that?

To me, Singapore will always be my second home, and I love it's folk, countryside (what's left) and all it's bad points I can ignore.....but of course, I'm not a Singaporean, just as you are not British......tons of things piss me off about the UK and I guess it's the exact same if you're a native Singaporean, Ozzie, American etc etc etc.

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:02 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
bangladeshi_wonder wrote:I understand, though, you're a minority that generally is preferred by most locals and nonwhite foreigners alike over others. May I ask you to verify this claim of mine plz?

Secondly the very minority singaporean wife of yours also happens to be a singaporean. Hence she should and would, in general, face MUCH less of a hassle in even getting the most basic things done IN singapore. Do you believe that this argument of mine is true?


Actually no. For both questions.




Actually you are either lying or ignorant, or somewhere in between.

How can the answer to my second question be a "NO". Please do explain.

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:17 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
That said, I will agree with you on the charges of racism here. But what do you expect. This country only has is brains or wit to keep it going, it has no natural resources otherwise. And, like any country, if you are an outsider, you would have to be looked at as either a giver or taker. If you come from a country that has a lesser level of confort you would be percieved, quite fairly, as a taker looking for a high level of economic stability. If you come from a country with a higher lever of confort (and that is subjective at best) but are bringing something to this country that it needs, then you are a giver (or at least it's give & take).





btw I don't quite understand why, according to your theory, Indians and Bangladeshis should be viewed so differently by Singaporeans. Indians, although thought of as very very lowly in general, are still considered to be above Bangladeshis by far for some reason.

by your theory they should've been viewed in pretty much the same way as a bangladeshi would be.

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Postby bangladeshi_wonder » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:23 pm

And btw, i'm open to new ideas, so apart from perhaps racist supremacy theories, if any singaporean (or foreigner) can explain either the reason behind this "racism" (widely perpetrated aginst myself - a bangladeshi - during my stay in singapore, which may or may not stretch till the present time) or prove the lack of its existence in singapore, I'll be glad to learn.


I really will be glad to learn of the reasons, the justifications that singaporeans (or foreigners) may come up with for acts of racism in singapore, like sms has tried to do (justifying "racism", other forms of discrimination etc etc).

Whether his justifications were reasonable enough is open to criticism, but he surely made an effort to justify them.

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Postby Vaucluse » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:23 pm

How can the answer to my second question be a "NO"



Quite simple, actually. watch:


NO!


Try it, it's easy.
......................................................

'nuff said Image

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:45 pm

Vaucluse wrote:
How can the answer to my second question be a "NO"



Quite simple, actually. watch:


NO!


Try it, it's easy.


Hey Vaucluse, did my last post's response somehow remind you of straw & camel or hairtrigger?


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