Question on education

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mysticalx
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Post by mysticalx » Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:26 pm

Have you ever been to an Aussie, US or Euro University? Have you seen Asian students immersing tghemselves into the host country's culture, joining non-Asian clubs, engaging in cultural exchanges?
Quasimodo,
Yes in fact I’ve been to a Finnish university and also a French one. For your information, student exchange programmes are very popular and many NUS students, for example, go abroad for exchange every year. Have a look at
http://www.eng.nus.edu.sg/ar/2003/Web/S ... lights.htm
In Academic Year (AY) 2003-2004, a total of 216 engineering students, representing 15% of the cohort went on student exchange, an increase of over 50% compared to AY2002-2003. These students went to 56 universities in 17 countries. In return, 210 students (double that of AY2002-2003) from 66 universities in 24 countries joined campus life at Kent Ridge and added a distinct global flavour.
Competition is stiff - you would normally need an above than average grade and also a good extra-curricular record to go on an exchange programme. More would also have applied if they had the money to go overseas.
I happeed to get to know two Singaporeans after about three years of sharing a class with them - their intention was to attend and graduate, not to contribute to the local country's culture.
I’d be careful with generalizations if I were you. You can’t just pass judgments like that because of TWO Singaporeans! By the way, have you ever thought how hard it might be on someone to be so far away from home for the first time and everything just seems so unfamiliar?

People tend to stick to their own circle…have seen many Spaniards, Americans, Chinese…the list goes on… doing just that. It is simply human nature and there’s nothing wrong with it. When you’re in a foreign country, you tend to miss home and may find it easier to relate to someone coming from the same homecountry who speaks the same language. That doesn’t mean they don’t want to get to know people outside their own group. Sometimes it takes a simple gesture to break the ice.
What complete BS you write, and then disguise comments like the above as anti-Asian - how easy is that.
Excuse me but please do not put words into my mouth. Not sure about it being anti-Asian but I’m PRETTY SURE this remark
one of my Universities in Sydney was cram-packed full of foreign students, though I fail to see how they contributed to any intelectual discourse above and beyond what was there anyway.
came from someone arrogant, so damn full of himself, and obviously does not think much of foreign students. As simple as that.
Here we go round and round again. Okay I concede defeat. I don't believe that I'm right just because I've repeated my points more times that people have.

My dear locallass, nothing I can do if people can’t read. And unfortunately for the both of you, I’m not one to sit by and let people walk all over me.

Hmmm…seems to me that some of the individuals who posted here aren’t so familiar with the education system in these countries. They were in fact surprised to find it free for non-EU citizens. Then again, they don’t come from the countries offering free education. Maybe this is why they got so worked up? Cos of something they never knew? And I also understand that people may say stuff they don’t really mean in a heated argument. So I’ll give them the full benefit of the doubt that one day they’ll be more accepting of people seeking education overseas – that they’re not all such bad people as you made them out to be.

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Post by Scarlet Pimpernel » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 4:02 am

Well said, Mysticalx!

I fully sympathise with your plight. Most of the people here do not seem to see your reasoning which to me is as clear as crystal. It is a real pity Unfortunately you are fighting a losing battle in this forum. ](*,) Its not worth your energy but allow me to tell you that you have a lot more supporters than detractors.

Do not let a few miserable comments upset you. :console:

Chin up !

:D :) :lol: =D> =D>

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Post by locallass » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 9:11 am

Oh another guest/newly registered/newbie to join the cheering squad.

By the way, reading does not equate understanding/listening mysticalx. Perhaps that's why you haven't grasped the crux of this discussion?

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Post by Quasimodo » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 9:21 am

You can’t just pass judgments like that because of TWO Singaporeans! By the way, have you ever thought how hard it might be on someone to be so far away from home for the first time and everything just seems so unfamiliar?


Two?
Read the post correctly, then comment - a bit of advice there.

Yes, yes, yes I know more than possibly anyone else here how hard it is being away from home - you see I have only lived in my 'home' country for four year of my life - moving from one to the other every 4 years - so please don't try to preach to me how difficult it is - you try this from a YOUNG age to adulthood.

Fact is that you do not read other people's comments carefully - possibly you use the scan and spam method of communication.

Fuly aree with Locallass.

Also my last post on this subject - you seem incapable of intelligent discussion.
One in the hand is worth two of something

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Post by dot dot dot » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:06 am

mysticalx wrote:
As you can read, I just said what was being said by another 'guest' here. I didnot generalize anywhere, I just summarized. I didnot refer to you being Singaporean, like you said: It doesnot even matter.
Seriously Eric, you’ve got a gift for summarizing other people’s comments.
Nice try, but the fact still stands, you accused me of something I didnot say.
Eric from the Netherlands wrote:What irritates me in this discussion is the fact that deny this truth and you are taking all for granted.
mysticalx wrote: I wonder who’s the one denying the truth?!!?!?! I have already explained to you as to why these governments choose to waive the tuition fees. Besides, NOT ALL who applied will be accepted. I mean, if you’re good and you know there’s an opportunity out there whereby you can get the best education possible without being a burden to your family, wouldn’t you go for it? It’s not like these governments are taking in loads of foreign students. There is after all a QUOTA!
This is what I said:
Eric from the Netherlands wrote: Again, this is all because of the fact that you emphasized on the importance and availability of 'free' education. And there's followers who cheer you for bringing this under their attention. So be it, but vaucluse and myself are just holding mirrors here, as there is no such thing as free education. The locals in the respective countries pay for it.

Up to you to ignore this or trying to bend it your way.

What irritates me in this discussion is the fact that deny this truth and you are taking all for granted.
You are just selectively quoting me (only taking the sentence "What irritates me in this discussion is the fact that deny this truth and you are taking all for granted" out of its context and then bend it your way again by replying with an irrelevant 'answer').

I wasnot referring to quotas, I was simply saying the truth is there is no 'free' education, as it will always be paid for by someone at the end of the day, namely us, the taxpayers in those countries where you'd study.

And that is exactly why all others here get so fed up with your egoistic approach:

You simply refuse to see that others suffer for your benefits. At least have the guts to say you are aware you are studying on others expenses. And then make a choice: earn it yourself and pay for it, let your family pay for it (like with your free meals you get every day) or choose to be so selfish and let those you do not know and do not care about, us taxpayers, pay for it.
mysticalx wrote:Anyway I’m outta here as it’s hard having a discussion with someone who can only harp on the same point over and over again and I also don’t wish to be labeled as some spoilt brat with a big mouth and no brains by some smart ass poster. (You know who you are)
Until this very moment you act like this spoilt brad with a big mouth and lacking empathy and awareness for this matter of 'free' education.
mysticalx wrote:And what view may that be, the one where students seeking education overseas are considered leeches, sucking the life out of the poor taxpayers, and that foreign students offer no value to the host country??? Obviously we all know how nice these places are by offering free education to non-EU citizens. And I've already explained numerous times the benefits and all, what it can bring to the host country and also to foreigners seeking better education. Wonder why I even bother to say anything on this thread when people simply refuse to listen.
The reason you say the same things all over again, is because you have nothing else to say but this so called 'free' education and 'the investments' you make in the foreign country by studying there.

We listened to that very carefully, but then replied to you our concerns and we held the mirror for this utopic thought of 'free education'. You should know by now who is paying for your 'free' education, and why that makes you so selfish.

Don't call us 'poor taxpayers', it is extremely rude to look down and ridiculize those who give you the free ride.

Regarding the investments, no thank you, we don't need your small change, don't even bother to call this 'investments', with all due respect.
mysticalx wrote:Of course there’s NO clear right and wrong, and there’s definitely NOTHING wrong with questioning where your money goes to as a taxpayer. But you are testing my limits when you make students seeking education overseas sound so selfish and money-grabbing.
I am not questioning where my taxmoney goes, I know it goes to people like you. That is a fact.

Testing your limits? Do you realise how arrogant that is to say that? You are this selfish person who wants to study on my expenses, you dare calling that 'free' education, you deny this fact and then we are testing your limits here???

Do you in the meantime realise how selfish and money grabbing you are?
mysticalx wrote:There’s no need to berate foreign students when they’ve never demanded anything in the first place. Everyone has the right to know whether education is free or not. When a country chooses to make its education free to non-citizens, they should expect people from all over to apply for places at these universities. At the end of the day, it is also up to them to decide who gets a place and who doesn’t. There’s really nothing a foreign student can do. So stop putting the blame on them!
Lame excuse to say you didnot demand for 'free' education. You choose to do so, blind for the facts that others pay for you, without them having a choice (can't refuse to pay these taxes).

It is not the country who makes these decisions on 'free' education on expense of its own citizens, it is the universities who do so. These universities that cater for this so called 'free' education are all subsidized by government. The money, again, comes from high taxes.

Then your other lame and false excuse: "There’s really nothing a foreign student can do".

Sure like h*ll you can! You can acknowledge you study on the expenses of citizens who do not owe you a dime. You could be a person that takes pride in its own responsibility and says: I will pay and earn myself a study.

That would make you a grown up and well aware person.

And just a final thought: I pay about 58% income tax in my homecountry, Scandinavian countries are alike or even higher taxed. After you graduate from the university over there, will you stay there and start paying these taxes as well, or will you go back to a country where there is almost no incometax and people have a very hard time earning theirselves a living?

In other words, will you continue being the sucking leech, who took a free ride on others expenses and after this free study continues to only look after himself, by avoiding 'investing' in high taxes in the country that was so willing to offer him the free ride?

Eric

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Post by dot dot dot » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:17 am

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:Well said, Mysticalx!

I fully sympathise with your plight. Most of the people here do not seem to see your reasoning which to me is as clear as crystal. It is a real pity Unfortunately you are fighting a losing battle in this forum. ](*,) Its not worth your energy but allow me to tell you that you have a lot more supporters than detractors.

Do not let a few miserable comments upset you. :console:

Chin up !

:D :) :lol: =D> =D>
You have the right to your opinion, even if that is to support those who are that egoistic and ignorant. It only shows where you stand yourself.

Care to share with us who exactly are all those other 'supporters'?

If not, just speak for yourself.

Eric

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Post by locallass » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:35 am

Eric, I wonder why dubious "supporters" always turn up when mysticalx is under attack, to praise her for being smart in shopping for the best deal, tell everyone how helpful and sensible she is and how many people agree with her. Isn't the strength of her arguments strong enough to convince people? Does she really need this backup in order to be in the right?

Anyway, I think this is a lost cause. This is no longer an intellectual exercise, but an emotional one. It's not even a conversation, just a rehash of the same points over and over again. No point answering any further.

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Post by dot dot dot » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:45 am

Agree locallass,

this is just about an utterly stubborn person, who should be old enough to realise its one way thinking, but who chooses to be immature instead.

So be it, may the free ride and exposure turn her / him into a more mature person one day.

Eric

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Post by locallass » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:55 pm

Eric, the problem is that mysticalx only chooses to see things from her point of view, despite her exposure in Finland and France. I doubt exposure in other places would make a difference.

mysticalx, shall we do an exercise on listening comprehension? What is the difference between the two sentences below?

"one of my Universities in Sydney was cram-packed full of foreign students, though I fail to see how they contributed to any intelectual discourse above and beyond what was there anyway"

"one of my Universities in Sydney was cram-packed full of foreign students, though I fail to see how they contributed to any intelectual discourse"

And what would be considered arrogant?

(1) Singaporean students contribute as much as local students in foreign universities
(2) Singaporean students contribute more than local students in foreign universities just because they're from another country
(3) Singaporean students contribute less than local students in foreign universities

Last but not least, can you also tell us from your experience studying in Europe, are Singaporean students more or less vocal in class as compared to their counterparts in France and Finland?
mysticalx wrote: Excuse me but please do not put words into my mouth. Not sure about it being anti-Asian but I’m PRETTY SURE this remark
one of my Universities in Sydney was cram-packed full of foreign students, though I fail to see how they contributed to any intelectual discourse above and beyond what was there anyway.
came from someone arrogant, so damn full of himself, and obviously does not think much of foreign students. As simple as that.

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Post by locallass » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 2:14 pm

mysticalx wrote:
What they are quibbling is whether the money from these students is over and above what the locals are spending in everyday expenses.
These students spend on lodging, food, transport and many of them travel around Europe (I believe you once thought this was true as well).
Another exercise in listening comprehension. When someone says

"What they are quibbling is whether the money from these students is over and above what the locals are spending in everyday expenses"

does she mean:

(1) Foreign students don't spend at all
(2) Foreign students spend but this not more than what the local students spend
And whether the contributions of these students during class are justifiable for the amount of money invested in them given that there is no bond or returns from this.
Hmm…How can there be no returns? Most are probably long term benefits and like any other investment, you don’t expect to see your *profits* doubling overnight. Everything takes time and hopefully with time, these people will come to understand the good that comes out of it.
And when someone says

"whether the contributions of these students during class are justifiable for the amount of money invested in them given that there is no bond or returns from this."

Does she mean
(1) the students make no contributions
(2) the students make contributions but not enough of them

Can I also ask- what are the contributions of these students?

Local students in host country
- Pay for food, lodging, transport
- Go on holiday
- Pay back for their education when they start working through taxes

Singaporean/foreign students
- Pay for food, lodging, transport
- Go on holiday
- Not required to work in host country or pay taxes after graduation

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Post by Carpe Diem » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 2:19 pm

locallass wrote: No point answering any further.
And you're not the first one to say that... :wink:
La vie est trop courte, profitons de chaque instant

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Post by Carpe Diem » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 2:25 pm

Or do you want to have the final word?
La vie est trop courte, profitons de chaque instant

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Post by locallass » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 2:25 pm

Okay I admit I can't help myself. Is that what you wanted to hear? ;)

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Post by locallass » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 2:27 pm

Carpe Diem wrote:Or do you want to have the final word?
Thanks for your faith in me.

I'm trying to explain how the breakdown in communication occured. Is this so wrong?

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Post by Carpe Diem » Fri, 28 Oct 2005 2:33 pm

No judgment about you, don't worry. I just found it funny that several people claimed it was their last post, and then came back in the discussion.

I understand you are trying to explain that. But my feeling is that this thread starts to taste like the leftover of a leftover which is served day after day... If you see what I mean?

Now you can have the final word. :wink:
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